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Another two prisoners have been released
by accident from a prison in the UK.
This after an enhanced regime was meant
to be in place to stop it happening
again after an earlier mistaken release
of a high-profile prisoner. And also
this news emerged in a very dramatic way
in the middle of Prime Minister's
questions at Westminster, which was
actually deputy prime minister's
questions today. We'll discuss
everything that's going on in this
latest episode of the BBC's daily news
podcast, Newscast.
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio
and shortly I'll be joined by the former
John Lewis boss Charlie Mayfield to talk
about the huge number of people who are
missing from the workforce because of
ill health and crucially what as a
nation we have to do about it. But first
of all, it was a very intriguing prime
minister's questions today at lunchtime
in Westminster. It's Wednesday after
all. Well, first of all, it was deputy
prime minister's questions because it
was David Lammy, the DPM, facing James
Cartage, the shadow defense secretary.
And James Cartage basically asked
variations of the same question five
times to David Lambie. Here is one of
those iterations. I'm asking him a
straight question and I'm going to
repeat it once more for the avoidance of
doubts because he didn't answer it
twice.
>> It's he's he's here to answer questions.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Can he reassure the house
that since Kabatu was released, no other
asylumseeking offender has been
accidentally let out of prison? It's a
clear question. Can he give an answer?
>> Deputy Prime Minister,
>> get a grip, man. I know I'm the justice
secretary. That's why I'm at the
dispatch box, also as deputy prime
minister. We know that.
>> It then emerged during that session of
prime minister's question time that
somebody had been released by accident.
a convicted sex offender, although he
wasn't an asylum seeker, but he was a
foreign national who should have been
being deported. And then a short while
later on Wednesday, we discovered a
second prisoner had been released by
mistake from the same prison, HMP
Wsworth. So, there's a lot going on
here, a lot to unpick. In a moment,
we'll be joined by Chris Mason from
Westminster, who can tell us the
political ramifications and also just
the slightly weird way that all of this
emerged in the House of Commons in real
time. But first of all, let's get some
of the details as we understand them as
we're recording this episode of Newscast
just after 6 p.m. on Wednesday. from
friend of Newscast Danny Shaw who is a
home affairs observer, former adviser to
the shadow home secretary Ivette Cooper
when Labour were in opposition and
before that an old colleague of mine at
the BBC where he was a home affairs
correspondent. Hi Danny.
>> Good evening Adam. Hi. Good to be back
with you.
>> Well, I'm glad you said good evening
because that gives me an excuse to say
it is 12 minutes past 6 on Wednesday.
So, as we're talking now, this is the
picture as we understand it. So, we've
got two prisoners released in error from
the same institution. Um, talk me
through what we know about the first of
those.
>> So, the first one that we know about is
a man called Brahim Kador Sharif. Uh,
he's an Algerian man. He's 24 years of
age and the key fact is that he
shouldn't have been released from
Onsworth prison, but he was. Um he was
released by mistake on Wednesday of last
week.
Uh but the Metropolitan Police was only
informed about it uh yesterday, Tuesday.
>> Uh and yesterday evening, we understand
that David Lammy, the Justice Secretary
and Deputy Prime Minister, was told
about this mistaken release from Wsworth
Prison. the details as to why he was
released and what exactly uh he was in
custody for are still coming in. I've
got to say they're sort of coming in in
dribbs and drabs and there's a bit of a
little bit of passing the buck or you
know one agency or one government
department saying no we can't confirm
that you have to go to the Metropolitan
Police and another agency saying no
that's not for us which I think tells
you everything you need to know about
the system and how unjoined up it is and
why these mistakes continue to happen.
So that's the first one that we've heard
about and potentially the most serious
because he is an Algerian man who is
essentially subject to deportation and
should probably have been removed from
the country 5 years ago when his visa
expired. The other um prisoner who was
released from error from Wsworth prison
was a man called William Smith. um he
was let out on uh Monday and he is um a
convicted fraudster. We are told that he
was released in error because the court
um that uh had sentenced him said that
he'd been given a suspended sentence um
when in fact he'd been given a custodial
sentence. Um a clerical error was made.
Uh it was corrected but the correction
was sent to the wrong person. And so you
know all that happened is that on prison
didn't know that he was actually about
to be jailed and in fact they thought
he'd been suspended so they released
him. So there was a mistake there from
the court.
>> And so if we go back to Ibrahim Kadur
Sharif I mean the first thing that jumps
out at me is that he was released on a
day when we were meant to have had an
enhanced process for checking that
people weren't being released by
mistake. having the whole big saga of
the the the the um foreign national who
was released the week before.
>> Yeah. I mean this this is what's this is
what's so embarrassing about the whole
uh scandal is that uh we had the Hades
Kabati case um the Ethiopian man who um
had committed sex offenses and uh that
had all sparked problems at the Bell
Hotel in Eping. He had been sentenced.
He should have been subject to
deportation, removed to an immigration
center. He wasn't. He was released in
error by Kilmsford prison, recaptured 48
hours later. David Lammy, the justice
secretary, stood up in the House of
Commons and said, "This is terrible.
I've ordered an inquiry and by the way,
I've introduced the most stringent
checks on releases of prisoners and
particularly releases of foreign
national offenders. There'll be a new
checklist that the prison authorities
will have to go through before they
release someone. and also a deputy
governor of every prison will oversee
the release of foreign national
offenders. Those checks were meant to be
went were meant to come into play on
Monday of last week. And then on
Wednesday, we learned that this man,
Brahim Kador Sharif, an Algerian man um
an Algerian foreign offender with a a
criminal record, a quite lengthy
criminal record by all accounts, and a
sex offender who was on the sex
offender's register had been freed in
error. I mean, it is It is frankly just
it's beyond belief that that could
happen. And you know where the mistake
lies you know I don't know whether it's
at ons with prison whether it's other
links in the chain whether it's courts
whether it's in the immigration system I
don't know but it just you know it's the
kind of thing Adam um that does lead to
resignations and dismissals of
ministers. I I I'm not calling for that,
but it's the sort of error when it comes
on top of, you know, a a previous
egregious error that does lead to to
people having to leave government
because of it.
>> And Danny, I know you got to go in a few
minutes, but Chris Mason has just
arrived at Westminster. Hello, Chris.
>> Hello, Adam. Hi, Danny.
>> Hello, Chris. Good to good to be with
you again.
>> Yeah, nice nice to have you on Newscast.
>> And of course, Chris, you've been at
Westminster all day. I just meant you've
arrived at the newscast Westminster
studio to talk to us. Um, so Danny was
just doing the the backstory to these
two mistakenly released prisoners. He
hinted at um the political ramifications
of this. Do you want to just um before
we do the ramifications, do you want to
just do the timeline and how this all
came out in such an intriguing way at
Prime Minister's questions today?
>> Yeah. So it had a messy genesis did
this. So so it was prime minister's
questions except it was the B team. It
was the standings because the prime
minister's at the climate summit, the
COP summit in Brazil. So it was David
Lammy, the justice secretary and deputy
prime minister and James Cartage who is
the shadow defense secretary. Um uh you
might not be surprised that Kem not
wouldn't want the shadow justice
secretary Robert Genrich who was a
rather ambitious chap to have a go at
doing prime minister's questions. Not at
least not yet. Anyway, we park that you
you had a series of questions from James
Cartage which were very specific very
specific. And so journalistically I'd
gone into the chamber thinking maybe
today won't add up to very much because
because it's the B team. Um and then
James Cartage had this specific
formulation in his questions asking if
the deputy prime minister could reassure
the house that an asylumseeking offender
has been accidentally released from
prison. And once he was asking that for
the second time, I thought clearly he
knows something that he is seeking to
flush out of um David Lammy. David Lammy
didn't go anywhere near addressing the
question directly. He talked about the
wider justice system. There was a bit of
party political uh knockabout and and
that was that in the chamber. But it was
obvious to me something else was going
to come. We then get the statement from
the from the Metropolitan Police.
Crucially, the the the fact the key fact
or the apparently key fact in the
conservative question about being an
asylum seeker was wrong.
>> But it's also true that David Lammy
chose not to say anything. Now, I'm told
that that decision was made because he
felt that the police should say
something first. Uh and also they are
saying that they wanted to be they
wanted to have a reverence for facts. My
understanding is whilst David Lammy had
been briefed on what became the case in
question, he wasn't certain on entering
the chamber whether this gentleman was a
asylum seeker or not. So I think he was
aware of the limitation of what he knew
and therefore concluded politically it
was better to say nothing than say
something and then potentially find
himself uh it boxed into something of a
corner. That said, since then, bit of a
political row. Conservatives in the last
hour or so saying as we record at 6:20
he should come back to the chamber
accusing him of potentially misleading
the house. But park that sort of micro
if you like to one side and just picking
up on uh Danny's contribution as I put
my headphones on and I didn't hear all
of your answer there Danny. But the the
bigger question, isn't it for a justice
secretary is is is h how you go about
justifying a justice system that is
transparently and palpably and
repeatedly failing in that sort of most
basic of tasks, which is who should be
in prison and who shouldn't be and when
they should be released.
>> And Danny, just before you go, um I was
going to say the reason there was um
confusion about the immigration status
of Brahim Kadur Sharif is that he's got
quite a complicated backstory.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean he arrived, we are we
understand on a visit visa in the UK in
2019 and in February of 2020
um an automatic probable overstayer uh
was put on his record. Um I take that to
mean that his visa had expired um and uh
you know he should be investigated for
potential uh deportation. uh then we had
COVID understandable that perhaps things
began to grind to a halt then um and um
but you know in the intervening period
he hasn't been deported although there
was a period of time when he was at
Combrook uh immigration removal center
which is in West London uh earlier this
year he was there which suggests that
deportation proceedings were quite
advanced and his removal to Algeria was
was going to happen quite soon and then
it appears there were some court
appearances and suddenly he ends up in
Wsworth. Now, there's a, you know,
there's a bit of a gap about what
happened, but this is a failure by the
Home Office to deport him in the first
place, by the Ministry of Justice, uh,
because he shouldn't have been released.
Um, so two government departments at
fault. Um, I think David Lambie, the
justice secretary, could be given a sort
of, you know, a pass for the first uh,
release in error that that came to light
of Hades Kabatu. Not his fault. Problems
further down the chain. and he's only
recently imposed, but I think this one
is more problematic for him and
particularly the prisons minister, Lord
Timson, James Timson. I know he's widely
respected across the prison sector, um,
you know, by both parties, but prison
ministers have gone for less than this
and I think his position has got to be
looked at because this is really
serious. I mean, you know, this is there
was a warning the last time this
happened with Hades Kabatu. The
government said greater checks were in
place and look what's happened now. And
just one other point, we had um a a
review by the independent monitoring
board. That's a group of volunteers who
go into prisons and do sort of checks
and inspections. and they produce a
report and they produced a report on W
onsworth just last month and it
highlighted the chronic shortages of
staff at that prison with some days
there you know they are a third
um a third of staff are absent on sort
of on an average day some days they have
85 prison officers for 1,400 prisoners I
mean that's extraordinary and when the
the prison visitors went in they said
that staff couldn't even provide them
with an accurate number of prisoners
that day. Now, that report will have
landed on ministers desks certainly last
month if not before. What have they done
about it? Because that's how that's how
mistakes happen when you have don't have
enough staff and you have very
inexperienced staff. They can't even
tell you how many prisoners are in the
jail.
>> Extraordinary. Uh what's fascinating
listening to you Danny your analysis is
is amazing as always but I'm just
picturing you briefing a shadow cabinet
minister about all that stuff and then
them going into the chamber and then
doing basically what James Cartage did
to the government today that those
that's the case he he was making. Um
Danny, thank you very much. I'll let you
go.
>> You're welcome.
>> Thank you. And so Chris um yeah you were
talking about the opposition parties
responses to this and what they're
demanding from David Lammy at the moment
as we're recording at 25 6.
>> Yeah. So so the the opposition parties
are saying hang on a minute surely there
is a duty to be more candid uh when
you're in the House of Commons and under
the kind of questioning that he was
under there's a frustration about uh and
and an anger about David Lami's manner
in the chamber. uh the way that he
responded to the questions from James
Cartage, which was to brush them off uh
pretty robustly. Um and so the argument
goes from the opposition parties. If he
knew something, whatever it was he did
know on arriving in the chamber, could
he not have said that? Now, as I say,
underlying that or an important context
to that is that a key part of that very
carefully written um and repeated
question from the conservatives about a
someone seeking asylum turned out to be
turned out to be wrong. And so, did
David Lami think that it was conceivable
that there was this that was a reference
to a different case or that sense that
he wanted to be careful with the limited
amount that he did know? There are
certainly though questions about should
or could he have known more? Should or
could he have dulged what he did know at
the start of PMQs or in some other in
some other way or was there a reasonable
reason why he didn't beyond that concern
about a lack of knowledge about the uh
the full uh the full picture? But I but
as I say I'm I'm conscious as I say all
of that as interesting as that is and as
awkward as it as it is for David Lammy
that the bigger picture is where Danny
was getting to which is the which is the
broader state of the uh of the prison
service the the justice system and then
certainly within elements of this when
there is the focus on um offenders who
are foreign nationals or of foreign
heritage or asylum seekers um how this
becomes a if you like they become case
studies in the wider questions about
immigration as well as the questions
about the justice system.
>> Yeah. And I mean the government clearly
thought they'd got a grip of this after
the Kabatu release by implementing this
enhanced system for uh releasing people
and checking that they were going to the
right place or being released in the
correct way. I just wonder what they
will do next to try and get a grip of it
now that we've gone like up a level of
defcon when it comes to problems in the
justice system.
>> This is the thing, isn't it? How do you
demonstrate grip? And and of course
there's going to be lots of questions
asked about how these accidental
releases manage to happen and the
various people and agencies and
processes and paperwork. Bit like the
conversation we had with Charlie Taylor,
the uh his majesty's inspector of
prisons uh last week. There's complexity
there and a desire for answers. But in
the end, from a government minister's
perspective, the whole point is that you
can demonstrate grip, that you can
direct the system, that you can make
things happen. And when there is
evidence that your ability to do that is
either limited or just simply not
working, then it then it's incredibly
awkward. Now, yes, in this particular
instance, there might be questions for
all sorts of justice and home
secretaries uh in this government and
the previous one. Uh but in the end for
a government minister you you've got to
be you've got to be able to be seen to
be in control because if you're not and
we've seen this with the wider and and
in some instances separate case and in
some cases not issue around small boats.
If there is a big issue that is making
headlines that a newscaster might
reasonably assume a government would
have some control over and it
demonstrabably doesn't that is
perilously dangerous for a minister in
particular and a government in general.
>> Chris thank you very much. Tom, now as
promised, let's play you my conversation
with the former boss of John Lewis,
Charlie Mayfield, who's done this huge
report into what he calls the crisis of
ill health in the workplace, what it
means for employees, employers, the
government, and all of us because of the
knock-on effect it has on the economy.
And of course, I had to start by asking
him about the new John Lewis Christmas
advert, which shows a dad being given a
record by his teenage son, which takes
him back to his clubbing days, which he
abandoned when he became a dad. And some
people love it and some people hate it.
So, that is where I started the
conversation with Sir Charlie Mayfield.
>> Charlie, hello.
>> Hello. Hi, Adam. Great to be here.
>> First questions first, most important.
Have you seen the John Lewis Christmas
advert? No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
Although I might ask you about that
later.
>> Well, I have actually.
>> Oh, have you? What do you think of it?
>> Well, I thought it was good. I mean, I I
I mean, you know, when I was there, I
left six years ago nearly, but um the
team did some amazing work and actually
But being a dad for a start,
>> that was going to be my next question.
Does it tug your dad heartstrings?
>> Well, it did a bit. Yeah. And I think uh
and being a terrible dancer, um but also
having a son who now is a bit older and
he's he's come out of his non-verbal
stage, but he certainly went through
that.
>> You can sort of relate to it. And I
thought it was it was nicely done. I
just wonder if all dads are now going to
get records
>> and not all dads have record players. I
know.
>> Um, right. Let's talk about what you're
actually here to talk about, which is
your your big review about uh how we
have a healthier workforce. What's the
best number that for you encapsulates
what a crisis we're facing because you
do call it a crisis.
>> Yeah. Um, do you know there are lots of
big numbers in the report and so you can
sort of read those, but I always I
always find that they can kind of end up
being wallpapers sometimes because
everybody bands around big numbers. I
think the probably the best way to
describe it is if you're a young person
and you're starting out in work and
you're not sure whether you're going to
be any good, whether you're going to fit
in, all those normal things. If you get
onto a track that we obly hope people
get onto where they they get into work
and they sort of find that they're okay
at few things and they feel part of a
team and they get onto that track where
they end up staying in work,
>> then you know on average, in fact, not
even average, you know, you're going to
earn over a million pounds over the
course of your lifetime, your working
lifetime. and and many people much more.
However, some of those people find that
it doesn't work out that way and they
end up on a slippery slope that
eventually leads them to leaving work.
And if you leave work in your 20s, you
know, then you're going to miss out on
that million and you're probably going
to cost the state about a million. So
it's 2 million pounds per person.
>> And since around about 2020, nearly
200,000 young people have left the
workforce largely for mental health
reasons. So that's a huge number. Now,
we couldn't stop all of that. I mean,
it's not possible to say flick our
fingers and make that good.
>> But that's what's at stake. And you know
what I mean, the other thing I'd say is
that talking about money and numbers is
just one side of the equation. Just
imagine the difference in life chances
in how people feel through their lives,
you know, the opportunities they get,
their sense of purpose, you know, all of
these things. Those are just as
important.
>> Well, and also the cold hard cash for
employers. What is it like a a person
off sick is £120 of profit per day.
>> Yeah, exactly. So they So
>> which is a hu that's a huge amount of
money.
>> It is a huge amount of money. And so
what we have I mean we have a situation
where we it kind of I mean it's it's one
of these situations where you sort of
realize that going going through the
review I mean having it's it was a
privilege to have the time to go and
spend time talking to people but what
you realize is we've winded up in a
situation no one wanted. And also it's
one of those slow motion crises that you
you have to have an opportunity to
actually see it because if if it's
happening all the time, you don't notice
it.
>> And it's a bit complicated. So you know
there's bits bit moving around and it's
not you can't all just say it's all like
this or it's all like that. It's more
complicated than that. It's just the
nature of it. But when you stand back
from saying how did we end up here? Cuz
no one wanted this. It was just it's
just kind of happened without us
realizing.
>> And I know you don't want to do numbers
but there's another big number which is
the cost to the public finances. If you
add up the benefits bill, the loss of
tax revenue, the loss of productivity to
the economy, and that is an eye
wateringly large number.
>> It's huge. Yeah, it's absolutely huge.
It's over 200 billion. So, it's it's we
say 70% of the the income tax revenues.
So, these are huge numbers. Um and but I
think the other point I want to really
make in we tried to make in the review
is that you you kind of need to say to
people, wake up. This is a really really
big issue and it deserves concentration
and attention and we have to all now get
on to fixing it. But the other message
that we've tried to put across is this
is a serious problem, but it's fixable.
This is not like we've got to learn to
do a whole load of new things. The
answers are already here that we already
have them. They're just very unevenly
distributed.
>> But let's talk about some of the reasons
why this has happened.
>> Um the young people's mental health
crisis, which everyone who works with
young people says is is a real thing. Do
you have a theory about why that's
happened? there is a noticeable uptick
in the incidence of mental health issues
amongst young people from about 2014. So
this is not a pandemic thing. People
think seem to think it is. It was made
worse by the pandemic through the you
know the the issues of isolation and
stuff but the trend was absolutely there
from way way before that
>> and yeah I don't know I my view and
again having kids of my own seeing I
mean actually my two eldest ones sort of
grew up out of those teenage years just
ahead of the social media wave and my
younger one was sort of just on the just
just about escaped
>> but I do think it's I I personally I
think social media does have an impact
it means people are sort of in the
spotlight all the time they don't get a
break and as you know life is quite hard
and sometimes you just need to have a
break and and it's very difficult. So I
think that probably that is a factor but
it's not the only factor
>> and then for older people in the
workforce it seems that people are
getting sicker younger and sort of
sicker in a more complicated way. Well,
so I mean, if you think about an older
person, and the great risk in all of
this, by the way, is you generalize. And
so I I just apologize upfront for
generalizing. And I appreciate that what
I'm going to say does not apply to
everybody and every situation at all.
And and therefore, it might seem,
>> you know, a bit blunt, but if you're if
you imagine you're older person and you
have you have joint pain of some kind
and then you get signed off work and you
go home and you're at home with your
joint pain, it's not nice being in pain.
It gets you down. Mhm.
>> And if you're also isolated from work
and you find that you're not getting the
sort of interaction and the sort of
affirmation that sometimes you can get
from just being with your colleagues and
then saying to you, great to see you
today or just talking to you or have
sharing a joke, all that kind of stuff.
You're isolated from it.
>> Then it's very common for what starts as
something to do with joint pain can then
end up putting you onto the beginnings
of of of sort of early stage mental
health issues. And if those aren't
addressed, they can then develop and
over time people can then get themselves
into position. It's I mean it's it's
penicious because then you become less
confident. You become you you feel less
able to go back to work because you're
feeling less good about yourself.
>> And also if you've been off year for a
work you find research that shows the
chances of you coming back plummet after
you've been off for a year.
>> And this is why because it compounds you
know. So the longer you're away the less
confident you feel about going back. And
so the bigger the effort needs to be put
in to help you to come back. And of
course that's sometimes hard to do. It
won't always work. So it's a it's a
problem. It's this kind of what I mean.
No one really wanted this, but we end up
it ends up snowballing and you end up in
this situation. And so we have to we
have to engage in that and see and and
we can do to to to to stop that
happening for people.
>> And then you've got the the work culture
that we've got in this country. One
aspect of which is that employers are a
little bit scared to speak to their
employees if they're off sick. And
equally employees are scared about
totally about going back to work or what
happens if they they need to have that
conversation too.
>> Yeah. I mean I think you know we we went
around the country we had we had um
hundreds and hundreds of meetings with
people uh all over all over the place
and we also went to other countries to
look at their operations and so again
the risk of sum oversummarizing but one
of the things we heard of consistently
is there's a lot of fear in here as you
said people if if you have an ill health
condition and in many ways particularly
if you have a mental health condition if
you have a broken leg got a broken leg
but if you have a mental health
condition you're very unlikely to say
hey I've got a mental health condition
today so you're you're afraid of
disclosing that. And of course, then
your line manager doesn't know that the
reason you're not looking great or not
performing terribly well is because
actually you've got some issue. They
just think you're not performing very
well. And also the line manager, if they
get half a scent that there is some
there is a problem with health, they
they tend to be then also afraid of of
engaging on that because they don't want
to cause offense because people
recognize health is a very personal
thing. They definitely don't want to do
something which creates a cause for a
complaint, let alone a grievance, let
alone a tribunal. And I have to tell you
that employers I have met um they will
they will they'll go to quite you know
they will avoid that and and even to the
point that they won't necessarily employ
people that they think who could look
risky. Now that's not right. Uh I'm not
saying it's right at all but we should
be clear it is happening.
>> So you're saying that the the problem is
employers not inquiring asking thinking
enough about their employees health.
It's not employers being too harsh.
>> Um I think I mean again this is where we
have to be careful about generalizing
because every employee is different.
Every employer is different.
>> Employees different. But I think the
point of that I think the significant
point is this this the issue of fear.
The reason it matters is it creates
distance between people.
>> You know almost the reason for it is
whatever it is the consequence of it is
it creates distance. People if they're
fearful they don't talk to each other.
And in the context of ill health, you
know, if you want to help people, you
need people to talk to one another.
>> And and and and so that's what we have
to address. And so one of the things we
say in the review is that we kind of
need to rehumanize the workplace. We
have got a situation now where it's not
uncommon if somebody let's say if
someone is off work for stress there'll
be quite a few HR departments who will
say to the line manager the last thing
you should do is phone that person to
say how are you because there's a risk
that they'll perceive that as you sort
of bullying them or pressuring them to
come back to work when it may be you're
just phoning them to say how are you?
>> Yeah. So we've ended up treating people
as risks, not as people. And and and I
can understand exactly why that's
happened. And there's a rationality to
it,
>> but it's not helping us.
>> Um, so if you then talk about a kind of
better world and you spend a lot of the
report talking about about solutions and
also it's good because you do a whole
like list of potential things rather
than doing a list of here's what you've
definitely got to do. Um, I mean, one of
the really kind of obvious ones when you
then think about it is, oh, if you have
a if you have your return to work plan
when you're sick now, why not have a not
going off sick in the first place plan?
>> Well, we call it a stay and work plan. I
mean, we said, look, I mean, if if we're
looking for things that will be good to
to would it be if we could invent the
future,
>> you know, what would be good features of
that future? Uh, one of them would be
that people have return to work plans,
you know, but that doesn't I mean some
employers do it, but that does not exist
currently as a regular part of of
handling ill health in the workplace.
But and it goes straight to my point
which is that you don't want someone
sitting at home not you know on their
own. We had I mean we can solve this too
because I mean when when maternity you
when when women participated much more
in the workplace which of course is is
brilliant but also when they were
pregnant and they were off on maternity
leave there was an issue which came up
which is people started to feel very
disassociated and dislocated from work
which was a challenge to then them then
them coming back. So we came up with a
very simple solution which called
keeping in touch days. They're now part
of maternity and paternity leave
arrangements. They're just regular
nobody blinks
>> and these days don't feel like a sort of
grenade waiting to go off. They're just
quite a normal path.
>> It's just a completely normal part. And
if you're going to have a return to work
plan, then the next thing you think
about, okay, well, if you're going to
have a return to work plan, why not have
a stay in work plan? Because if you
think about that as an idea, you know,
if you can encourage people to say, you
know what, I have got a problem. Or you
can support a line manager so that they
can be sensitive and say, actually, I
think someone may have an issue here and
I'm going to be I'm going to feel
supported and safe to raise that. Then
you've identified early. You say, you
know what, I think, okay, I get it. Now
you need to have some time off to have
an appointment. You need
>> I suppose the issue there is though is
you can see how you design a system like
oh after an employee's been off a
certain amount of time you should have a
phone call with them and then have a
return plan
>> so they can come back to to their their
job. At what point do you start talking
to them about the staying in work plan?
That's a much fuzzier more complicated
thing isn't it? So look that so there's
a big cultural bit to what we're talking
about here which is again some of the I
think sometimes people look at these
situations and they see a big problem
and they want to see the oh the way we
solve it is we do this this this and
this and it's done you know and you're
done human beings are a bit more
complicated than that and and there
isn't that option here. So but but what
you have to do is engage with that. You
have to engage with the the humanity of
the workplace and so creating and
encouraging people to be able to talk to
one another is is is a good thing to do.
And of course, when you start thinking
about it, there's lots of things we
could be doing that we're not doing
right now. I mean, if you are somebody
with an early stage mental health issue,
maybe you're feeling anxious in work.
Who do you turn to? And and actually
nowadays, you know, there's technology
available. There's AIS that you could
very quickly probably stand up a service
which you could access completely
confidentially. It could really give you
good quality advice. I mean, you have to
be careful. Could give you bad advice as
well.
>> Also like a work health chatbot.
>> Absolutely. You could have things like
that. and and these these exist and they
they actually show some good results in
some places, but we're not using them on
a broad basis. But the other thing I'd
say to you is you've got to think about
this through the line manager lens as
well because they're nervous. They're
not line managers cannot be
psychologists. You know, they that you
can't expect that of them. They're busy
people who've got stresses and strains
of everyday life and all of that as
well. And you know, if they're
struggling to manage somebody, it's
quite a big deal for them to go to HR
and say, "I'm struggling. Uh can you
help me?" Because then they're worried
that HR might say, "Oh, they're not a
very good line manager." So again, it
works both ways. Wouldn't it be great if
we could have technology which provided
in the moment absolutely brilliant
advice that people could access easily.
So those kinds of things are doable. Um
and and and I think I see a future where
we we need to I'm not saying that's a
again it's not a silver bullet. Totally
not. But it but there's so much
potential for us to address these issues
if we name them and then lean in on
them. So, do people just have to get
used to the idea that in a few years or
a few decades time they might be
chatting to a chatbot about their
deepest feelings which is linked to
their employment?
>> Well, so I think we've got to be careful
that's kind of programmed by and and
purchased by their employer.
>> So, I've used an example. Yeah. And I
think and I've lapped on it
>> and we can overuse an example. So, no, I
I want to I mean at the heart of this I
want to rehumanize the workplace. Yeah.
>> But you see one of the things you also
have to recognize it's difficult for
people to name things. So you need to
probably find ways to make it easier for
them to at least talk to somebody. I
think it's better that someone's talking
to a good AI. Yes.
>> Than not talking to anybody. Yeah,
>> that is better. It's not a sufficient
solution. And hopefully what might
happen is the AI helps them to think
about well how could you raise this? How
could you feel safe to raise this with
your employer?
>> Meanwhile, for the for the line manager,
same kind of thing or the employer
generally, how do you create a safe
environment where people feel able to
raise things without being judged? And
because if you can raise them early,
there's so much you can do to fix them.
There really are. There's so much you
can do.
>> And then um the idea of fitnotes, well,
they're not an idea. They're a thing
that exists. It's this is when your GP
um writes a note for you if you've been
off off work for a certain amount of
time that that then affects whether you
go back to work or not. I mean, it
sounds like that. You talk about we've
ended up with a system that no one
wanted. That also sounds a bit like a
system that no one wanted because it
doesn't sound like it works with the
GPS, employers, or the employees.
>> Yeah. And and let's be clear, I'm not
the first person to say this. It's
pretty common common view held by a lot
of people.
>> Oh yeah, it was a big Rishies policy was
to reform it.
>> Exactly. Uh and so uh it is an issue. Um
it's also something which is not easy to
resolve otherwise it probably would have
been would have been sorted out and I
think the other point I would stress is
that this is not a matter of the GPS not
doing their job as such or or sort of
signing people off really too easily.
Um, I think the way to think about it is
the G in the context of the fitnote, the
GP is being asked to see the patient and
and to assess their health condition and
how to how to uh uh how to approach that
and improve it
>> and they're being asked to assess the
extent to which that person can work
while they're getting better.
>> Yeah. So, a GP has to be an expert in I
don't know a broadcasting organization,
a plumbing company, a restaurant, you
every every job you can imagine a GP has
to sort of be a mini expert in to work
out what to do.
>> And they can't do that. and they say
that and and I think everybody realizes
they can't do it. And yet we've we have
got in the system part built into the
system is a job that they can't do. Uh
and as a result 93% of fitnotes say
people are not fit for work which is I
think is a sign that they can't do that
piece of it. But it's better to say
probably that than to say oh we'll just
carry on anyway. So we have to we have
to replace that. But if you go back to
what we were saying about a return to
work plan and a stay in work plan, if
you could imagine a world where you've
got a return to work plan and it's been
agreed between you and your employer and
a workplace health professional, always
with the option of referring to your GP
and keeping your GP in the loop, that
bit of the fitnote is kind of not it's
not really needed anymore.
>> That sounds like even more work for GPS
though. That's multiple conversations
with a person. No, because I think what
we're proposing is that is that this is
where the workplace health provision
needs to step up and provide some of
that. Now I think the point that I also
want to stress here though is that
nobody is saying that this in this
situation that you can't go and see your
GP or and and at the end of the day you
know anything we stand up within an
employment context if somebody feels
unhappy with the outcome and they go see
their GP and the GP is their primary
care provider has you know says well I
don't think this is quite right then
that kind of has to trump all the rest
of it but we think that maybe you know a
large proportion of most of the everyday
stuff can be dealt with through this
system.
>> And when you talk to GPS, they they kind
of say when you say, "Well, what would
happen if somebody has a return to work
plan?"
>> Most of them say to me, "Well, we'd
probably ask the patient what they think
of it." And if the patient says, "Well,
I think I can probably do that." They
say, "Well, that's pretty good." Then
>> the old way of talking about this is,
"Oh, what do employers do? What does the
government do?"
>> I notice you say the word responsibility
quite a lot of times. And you say the
responsibility lies with the employee as
well. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Do you think we need a little bit of a I
don't know a reset about the
responsibilities of of workers?
>> Yeah. Uh I mean I think in a word um you
know what we're saying is
>> and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to
get you to say oh we've become a nation
of slackers. I don't I'm not that's not
what I'm getting at.
>> Yeah. No no no I see that and and it's
not really that because I don't think
it's it's nothing is ever as simple as
that.
>> But what we do say I mean very clearly
is that employees need to do a bit more.
employees need to do some more and so do
so does the government. And on the
employee piece you essentially what
we're saying is look a supportive
working environment is important that is
a it's a good environment in which you
know for you to flourish and so there
are aspects of that that are things that
you should rightly expect. However, you
also have personal responsibility and
some of that personal responsibility is
to recognize that you know not always
it's not about people giving you
everything on a plate all the time so
you can be your best self. you kind of
have to show up and be your best self
and you sometimes will have to show a
degree of resilience and stay in a
situation where you're not feeling
comfortable in order to get through it.
And if what you do instead is you
disengage from that too quickly and too
early, you can set yourself on a path
which can lead to, you know, long-term
disengagement from the work workplace,
which by the way is really bad for you
in most cases. It's not good for the
economy. It's not good for the
employers. You know, I hate my boss is
not a health condition. I mean, you may
hate your boss. Your boss might be a
hateful person, in which case something
should be done about that.
>> But it may also be that your boss has
just told you that what you've done is
not good enough and that needs to be
better. And and if they're doing that in
the right way, they're doing what bosses
are meant to do. And actually, they're
giving you the opportunity to develop
and grow. And so, you know, I think
there is a responsibility there that we
do need to emphasize and also ensure
that people understand that the
alternative of just disengaging
probably doesn't solve anything. And in
fact, it puts you at real long-term risk
of losing out.
>> I mean, this is maybe out the scope of
your review, but can you understand why
a young employee who
is coping with like the cost of living,
can't get on the housing ladder, still
living at home, why they might feel
quite disillusioned about the world of
work altogether, not just about what
kind of provision there is for their
their health.
>> I completely can understand that. And
and I think what you find in talking to
employers about and employees about
about uh issues of health is that um
sometimes it's what's happening outside
of work which is creating the issue
which is then manifesting itself in
work. Um so uh you absolutely have and
again it's this whole point about
needing to take a human perspective on
this. We're whole human beings. We
aren't just the person at work. We are
we're a whole life
>> and the whole community that we live in
and and so the fact is going if you're
having a problem with your partner or
your or or there's ill health in your
family or there's also or financial
pressures all those things can be uh can
be really big big influences.
>> Um and I also take your point that
people can can can become disillusioned.
I mean I think sometimes people say to
me oh is it is it that we just got sort
of people who don't who lack resilience?
I I don't agree with that. I think um I
think what can unfortunately happen is
you can have people who get into a
situation where you know you know we
live we live we live a life of sliding
doors if yeah people you some people are
lucky and the doors slide in the right
direction and the case sometimes they
probably do things which help that to
happen but some people aren't lucky and
they start without a lot of resilience
and the doors don't slide in the right
direction they have a whole series of
bad experiences at work
>> and then quite rationally if you're one
of those people and you're saying well
so should I go back and have a what's
probably going to another bad experience
at work or should I do something else?
You might think that something else
looks more attractive and I so I
understand that and I think it's
important to understand that rather than
just dismissing people and saying, "Oh,
they just don't like work. They're work
shy." You know, it's it's more
complicated than that. And of course,
the answer to it lies in trying to
encourage employers to do what they can
do to help the doors to slide in the
right direction. The answer lies in the
individual showing some personal
responsibility and not always sort of
taking the view that somehow they've
been they're disadvantaged or they've
been treated badly when they may have
been treated perfectly reasonably and
stay in it.
>> Um and of course the responsibility is
also on government to ensure that the
incentives and the sort of encouragement
is in the right place to encourage the
right outcomes.
>> Now I should say to listeners of
newscast you've got some papers on the
desk in front of you and some notes and
you haven't looked at them once because
you knew all this stuff like the back of
your hand. So, I've just had an insight
into what it must be like doing a board
meeting with you at John Lewis in those
days. Pilot papers doesn't even need to
look at them. Um, Charlie, thank you
very much.
>> Thanks, Adam.
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