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What makes a cookie so expensive? It's

just sugar, flour, and butter.

Buckle up, Josh. You're about to find

out. You cool to take this one?

Award-winning pastry chef Christina

Tocei.

Oh, yeah.

I was born for this one.

This is a hot dog is a sandwich.

Ketchup is a smoothie.

Yeah, I put ice in my cereal. So what?

That makes no sense.

A hot dog is a sandwich.

What? You thought that was seductive?

Okay, fine. More like um official. Is

that better?

Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a

Sandwich, the show we break down the

world's biggest food debates. I'm your

host, Josh Sher.

And I'm your host, Nicole Annay.

And today we have a very special guest

on the pod. She's the founder owner of

Milk Bar, James Beard, award-winning

pastry chef, and the progenitor of Cool

Girl Baking. A woman who's a woman who

is as iconic as her cereal, milk, ice

cream, and compost cookies. It is the

Christina Tossy.

Christina, welcome to the show. Thank

you for being here. is

I mean, is a hot dog a sandwich? It sure

is.

Yeah, I'm over I'm over the drama. It

is.

A woman on the right side of history. We

So, we we founded this podcast more than

5 years ago at this point. And we had

not covered the actual topic of whether

or not a hot dog is a sandwich until we

did a five-part series where we

interviewed a philosopher, a historian,

a lawyer because there have been

multiple legal battles over this and

then an actual hot dog business owner uh

to to get the real boots on the ground

and then we debated people on the street

and we've still been split until now

because Nicole wants to defer to you

which I really respect.

Yes. Yes. I I'm a very respectful

debater.

Uh, but the reason we wanted to have you

here today is because I feel like we are

going through maybe a third I'm going to

call it the third wave cookie

renaissance.

I knew you were going to say

renaissance.

There's a ren but there's there's a new

renaissance but I think you can sort of

track these waves of cookie popularity

and now for the first time I feel like

it's gone completely global. I was in

France recently and I've not seen so

many cookies among all of the like

French vias.

Yeah. And they're just called le cookie

which is really funny. Lebroni as well.

They're very popular all over. Um, but

you are one of the ones leading that

renaissance and we want to talk all

about the economics of a cookie and what

actually goes into the pricing because

we've gotten a lot of comments from our

listeners talking about how expensive

baked goods are. And at the beginning of

the pod, I said it's just sugar, flour,

and butter. But, oh, Christina, I

imagine it is so much more than that.

Just

Oh, Josh, it's so much more than First

of all, amazing French accent. And also,

I think that's such an interesting call

out because I when I was becoming a

professional pastry chef 20 years ago,

like going to culinary school, you

studied French technique and there is

there was nearly a cookie recipe

anywhere near the curriculum to the

extent that they don't even really have

a French word for cookie or brownie to

your point, which is a bar cookie. So,

is a brownie a cookie? Yes, it's a bar

cookie. not a brownie.

Um, and I think that's fascinating. Oh,

rename the podcast. We're doing a

spin-off. We're doing a spin-off. Is a

brownie a cookie? I might be a cookie

biggest fan. Like, I wrote a cookbook

that's all about cookies that really uh

blurs the line of what a cookie can and

can't be. And I think it's really just

scratching the surface, but I the reason

I do what I do for a living and have my

whole life is because of the power of a

cookie in its inherent humility. The

fact that like you never get a cookie

recipe that makes one, right? It's

always a batch of cookies. It's meant to

be shared. The power of a cookie, what

it does for us, etc., etc. But beyond

the emotion of it and the deliciousness

of a cookie, cookies,

like it's not easy to make a good

cookie. It is easy to make a cookie and

a mediocre cookie implicitly or a sub

subpar cookie, but it's not easy to make

a great cookie. To pay rent on a

storefront for any baker, you got to

sell. My like phrase I always tell the

team's like you got to sell a lot of

cookies to pay the rent. and the

economics of making a great cookie.

Well, they're more complicated now than

they were almost 17 years ago, 18 years

ago when I opened Milk Bar. You ready

for it? You want me to just go? You want

me to put Should I put on like my bif

focals and be like, "Okay, Josh, let me

tell you."

I I would actually love that.

We would love to be school.

The CFO the COO. Okay, we'll do CFO

Christina and then COO Christina and

then we can just be a baker again.

Okay, love it. Okay. So, basics of a

great cookie, right? Like raw

ingredients. Butter, great cookie,

unsalted European style butter, so that

the dairy is cultured. So, there's a

depth of flavor to the butter before you

even start mixing it with these other

ingredients to make it greater than the

sum of its parts. Um, some cookies are

better with part shortening. And I don't

mean that because you're like short

changing the experience. You just get a

better shelf life. If you've ever had

like an oatmeal cookie that has part

butter and part shortening in it, the

shortening is all fat where butter is

some milk solids, some water, and some

fat. Um, so you're getting more flavor

in butter, but you get like um a softer,

tender for a longer period of time

cookie if you can find the right ratio

of shortening without forfeiting flavor.

sugar, granulated sugar, light brown

sugar, dark brown sugar. There's all

honey, maple, there's all different

sugar systems that you can bring into

place depending on the flavor story of

the cookie. Eggs. I don't like a cookie

with a lot of eggs, but a little bit of

egg truly, and I've gone at every single

one of our recipes and questioned every

ingredient and the ratio of every

ingredient at Milk Bar. A cookie without

eggs, when we go through like aven bird

flu or some of these other egg

shortages, a cookie without egg is just

not as good. If you remove the egg

entirely, the texture is out the window.

We've replaced the egg in our cookies at

times with flax. One, for like people

with egg allergies and and you can get

similar in texture, but you you you

start hacking away at what makes a

really great cookie as delicious. The

flax just doesn't come with the same

richness, even though you can almost

reconstruct the texture that an egg

brings. Um, some sort of flavor. So,

typically vanilla extract. Is it dark

vanilla extract like a like your

favorite chocolate chip cookie like that

deep sultry vanilla extract? Is it clear

vanilla extract like our confetti cookie

where it's light and creamy? And then

there's like a world of extracts, right?

Of you can get a brown butter extract,

you can get a maple extract, you can get

a fudgy extract, a citrusy extract. I

can't even tell you how many extracts we

have. We have so many. You can anything

can be a flavored extract that helps

boost the flavor story of just the

baseline cookie dough before you get to

all the inclusions mixins. That's

usually all the wet ingredients. If

we're talking about like a true drop

cookie

should have even should have even backed

out there. I'm talking about just like

let's we're talking classic chocolate

chip cookie drop and bake because

there's so many different kinds of

cookie. Then dry ingredients. So flour

but flour allpurpose flour. Is it high

protein? Is it low protein based on the

texture of your cookie? Do you I don't

know. Is there some like rye flour in

it? Are you smoking the flour because

you want kind of like a smoked chocolate

chip cookie? Is there some corn flour,

some oat flour, or some um wheat berry

flour, whole wheat flour, etc., etc.

Pumpern no flour. There's so many

different dry flowers you can bring in

to tell the flavor story texture. Is it

gluten-free flour? Because it's a

gluten-free cookie. Gluten-free is so

much more expensive because the what

makes up the gluten-free flour hasn't

been commoditized the way that wheat

has. So, it's just more expensive to

grow, to harvest, to to mill down.

Then, typically salt. Every cookie needs

salt. Every baked goods need salt. Not

because it's salty sweet, but just to

help sharpen the edges of flavor and

contextualize it. Um, baking powder or

baking soda, your leavenners, right?

Baking powder gives you height. baking

soda gives you breadth, but also those

two um leavenners. You don't need both,

but some cookies use both. They help um

even distribution of color in the baking

oven. And then they actually add acid to

your cookie dough. So, if you ever left

baking powder, baking soda out, you

would know not just because the cookie

isn't either growing in height or

breadth and because the cookie is like

strangely colored when it's baked

compared to what happens when you have

it in, but you will be like, "This

cookie doesn't taste as good because it

doesn't have that slight bit of acid."

And then you have all the other add-ins.

So, inclusions, chocolate chips,

chocolate chunks. If we're just going

chocolate chip cookie, I believe we were

talking earlier, milk powder for me is

the MSG of the baking world, but

specifically in cookie, it's going to

give your cookie a deeper, rounder

flavor. It's going to give it more chew

if you want a chewy chocolate chip

cookie. And then, I mean, as the person

that was like, I have an idea. Let's put

all of the things into the cookie, which

is what the compost cookie, the classic

milk bar compost cookie is, where it's

like pretzels, potato chips, oats,

ground coffee, butterscotch, chocolate,

graham crackers. I think I got it all.

Um, but the way that we tell flavor

stories, to your point, Josh, like the

third renaissance of cookie, right? The

flavor stories that are coming out in

cookie form are all about how we are

inspired by

I have made a hot dog cookie, by the

way. how we are inspired by something

that inspires us to turn it into a

cookie

to to like you could make a molted Oreo

milkshake cookie and think about all the

other ingredients you need to then add

into that cookie. Just raw ingredients

to make it taste like that. So that's

raw ingredients. Then you've got the

labor involved with measuring and

weighing so that the formula is just

right because baking is a science.

mixing it, scooping it, chilling it,

maybe depending on it, putting it in the

oven, taking it out, cooling it, handing

it to someone, wrapping it, putting it

in a box, whatever it is. You've got

your overhead, right? Your So, that's

the labor of it, but you've got your

rent. You've got all your other

utilities. You got to have an oven that

works, whether it's gas or electric. You

have to have a walk-in fridge or, you

know, a single door or double door

going. So, then all you've got capex,

right? What table are you making that

cookie on? What mixer are you using?

Where did that who paid for that oven?

Right? Are you depreciating it on your

schedule, etc., etc.? And then, of

course, you have the packaging of it,

right? Like, is it going in a cute

little bag? Are you handing it to

someone on a cute little napkin? Most

people when you buy a cookie, they

aren't just putting it in the palm of

your hand. Maybe they're using a spatula

to put it on. Like there's a whole stick

to we want like our cookie dream to come

true and that comes with um the

controllables on a P&L of a cookie to

get that cookie to you for that

experience nowadays. I mean even during

COVID like the cottage bakeries even

nowadays, right? So it's you can get a

great cookie in the mail through DTC for

someone that has foregone a higher

occupancy cost but they're still paying

for shipping and boxing and and andan

and tape. How cute is the label? What

about the insert that tells you how to

store your cookie and what to do with

your cookie, etc., etc. And then you

have, you know, usually a small write

off line of spoilages, right? Like maybe

a cookie um, you know, have you ever

like taken your cookies out of the oven

and you're like your pot holder thumb

accidentally dents a cookie and you're

like, "Well, I can't sell that. I'm

going to eat that cookie, but I can't

sell that now." Or a cookie breaks when

you're handing it to someone or

packaging it. Or maybe you didn't sell

all the cookies you thought you were

going to do in a day. Or maybe the box

of cookies didn't arrive on time for

someone's big occasion. Blah blah blah

blah blah. That's a line item of the P&L

because you're going to send someone a

new box of cookies instead. But

but raw ingredients, I'd say, is the

biggest piece of why a cookie is so

darn.

I love listening to you talk about

cookies. What do you

I could go I could go further, but I saw

Josh's eyes be like,

I'm not ready for all of this.

I internalized everything.

I internalized it all.

That was my own machine turning on on

where this was going. But no, no go

Nicole, you have the floor.

I just loved it. I I mean, what do you

want to talk about next? You have the

floor. You want croissants? You want 15

minutes on croissants? I'll give it to

you.

I wanted to ask a question. It all this

sort of calls into question of like what

is a bakery now? Cuz you were mentioning

cookies by mail and just going DTC. We

actually we have a friend he runs a

fantastic small uh you know fledgling

bakery called Lexington Bakes. Yes.

Where he makes just super high high high

high quality cookies, brownies, whatever

you want to call them. They're all

square for uh oven efficiency purposes.

But he was telling me he was trying to

go straight DTC. That's direct to

consumer for all our listeners out

there. Except to get on all of these

delivery apps and now people are just

using the Door Dash, the Grubhub,

Postmates to get cookies delivered to

them. He needs to be registered as a

bakery, which means he needs to have a

brickandmortar storefront.

So, you have to like get like not an

escort, but like he has to get an LLC

and everything like that.

They they seem to have their own um own

guidelines on what actually constitutes

a restaurant that a driver will pick the

cookie up from. And having like a ghost

kitchen or a commissary kitchen uh where

he normally does his baking and then

packages it himself, it doesn't exactly

count. And so, there's these strange

hidden overhead costs. and like his

packaging is beautiful because if you're

direct to consumer and you're sending

them out that needs to be beautiful and

tell a story or if you want to grab

attention in a storefront and so like

when you're talking about the overhead

for I mean I remember when Milk Bar hit

hit Melrose in LA and all of us you know

flock down there it's it's beautiful and

it's welldesigned and there's obviously

intention that went into the feeling

that you get when you're being in there

you know

uh how much of that

like the economics actually factored

into that decision like was there any

part of you that was like we can just do

a mail order business or we can just

supply to restaurants, we can just go

into stores.

Interesting. It's so it's such a great

question. I mean I opened Milk Bar in

November of 2008 in the East Village of

New York City and in my mind it was

always an in-person experience. I mean,

November 2008 was like when the economy

was, you know, there's no other time in

American history or the most recent time

in history that that the financial

health and well-being was as scary in a

place was exactly that time. So, one

would say terrible time to open a

bakery, but in my mind, it had to be a

physical bakery. Like, I wanted to see

people like I my whole point of Milk Bar

was I want to make people happy with

dessert and I want to democratize

dessert. And so one cookie had to be on

the menu because of the democratization

that I think a cookie holds

in its size, shape, format. It's Trojan

horse for flavor and for so much more. I

wanted to bake for you. I didn't want to

bake away from you. I wanted to kind of

like bake with you, if you will. And I

wanted you to be there. Open kitchen,

right? Like we see all of these things

now and they seem like they've always

been this way. But having an open

kitchen where you could actually see the

people not just cooking savory food for

you but baking for you did not exist.

Pastry departments, you know, they're

behind the scenes. They're in the

basement. They're in the back. There's

no windows. So for me, it had to be in

person on some level. That's just what

made sense in my brain. But because we

got so much like love and fanfare and

support so early on

then I was like well if I'm going to

democrat like I really want this idea of

democratization of dessert to to this is

true for me. I would just get a call. I

was also the customer.

Who's running your customer service?

That's another over. I was our customer

service both on email and on phone. And

I would get calls in right at random

times of the day whenever we'd get like

a cool piece done about us. And this one

sweet woman, I think she was in Kansas,

was like, "Well, honey, like I'd be

like, "Well, here are our hours. You can

come in." And she was like, "Well,

honey, I'm never going to make it to New

York City. I've never been in my life.

I've not, but I really want to try, you

know, I really want to try your bakery."

And I took a step back and I was like,

well, when I left home and went to

college, like my mom would just send the

cookies in a care package. She would

underbake them because I like a slightly

fudgy center. And so I was like, uh,

okay. I'll just put it in like just tell

me what you want. I'll write down your

information. I'll put it in the mail.

And we launched the DTC arm of our

business in 2009, 2008, 2009. So, this

is before DTC was even an acronym,

before anyone even thought about

sending food in the mail as a business,

before there were any real regulations

for it, etc., etc. I think maybe Omaha

states

I was going to say it was Omaha states

and edible edible arrangements. Yeah.

Yeah. Um or Harry and David, but

exactly. Palafrio was not shipping, but

then when we did that, we were like,

well, that's pretty cool. It's like we

have it's like we have a spaceship of

baked goods that's just orbiting around

the US or like a drone delivery service

where we can just bring our baked goods

to wherever people are and built that

part of it. But you're right, Josh. Like

that part's expensive. Even ondemand

delivery, they take a percentage of your

sales, right? Like who's paying who's

paying the the piper? You are as as a

business owner, not as the customer. But

there's so many different ways to do

business. I mean, I know people that

like host little cafes in their New York

City apartments.

I've seen those how they do business.

Yep.

Um, obviously there's like the whole

farmers market bit. You can wholesale to

your local coffee shop or where you

think people are getting your baked

goods. You can go into grocery stores or

the little shopppee shops. But you're

right, each of them has like different

overhead pieces. And a lot of it comes

down to both like the the the LLC um

like articles of organization of are you

a legitimate business? And then the

other piece of it typically is the

health department, right? Like whatever

whatever jurisdiction you fall under and

town to town, city to city, state to

state, those regulations differ. So I

think across the US and to your point

just like across the world now, across

the globe, you get these really

interesting manifestations of cookie

shops or bakeries because they're

products of ingenuity and

entrepreneurship of people that freaking

love cookies and believe in the power of

a cookie. I'm I'm curious what your

margins are in like more acronyms in the

CPG part of your business in stores

versus DTC versus like in your brick

andmortar store. Like how much money are

you making from each cookie sale in each

of those three realms?

So, interestingly enough, in the grocery

store in CPG, you there is there's

almost no margin left because you aren't

just selling your cookie to the

Gellson's of the world. You're selling

them to someone that's selling them to

someone that's putting them in Gellson's

and Gellson's paying a piper to pay a

piper to pay a piper to pay you. That

part of selling cookies is super tricky

which is why you see I think far less

innovation and far less maybe newcomers

that stay that are doing something that

is as magical as what we see in the

other sectors of business. So that's

another way to sort of you can as a

consumer gauge what profit profitability

um looks like in different sectors by

saying where am I seeing the most

innovation cool stuff cool flavors

delicious flavors and when where am I

seeing the least you see the least in

grocery because of that DTC it kind of

depends on how you have the relationship

with your customer. Are you giving them

free shipping or they paying for

shipping? How cool to your point is like

the unboxing and packaging experience

and is that getting built into a

handling cost or is that getting built

into the cost of a cookie? Everyone does

the accounting bit of it a little

differently. In person, the margins are

the best provided you have people that

are coming in for cookies all the time

because you're paying. When was the when

you worked an hourly job an hourly job?

I think we all started somewhere in the

food industry, right? They weren't like,

"Hey, Nicole, um, you can take the next

four hours off unpaid because no one's

coming in to buy cookies now." Like,

you're coming, you're going to work

under the premise that you are making

cookies and helping the bakery sell

these cookies for the entirety of your

shift. And rent doesn't decrease based

on the number of cookie sales you have.

Usually, it depends on your rent

structure, whether it's like base or

base percentage. Most landlords won't do

a pure percentage rent based deal, but

it's basically the it is inerson bakery

has the potential for the highest margin

at a certain scale, then DTC, depending

on where you put the dollars and cents

and who's paying and then grocery or

CPG, unless you get to a crazy scale,

Josh, where you have an entire cookie

factory and everything is mechanized and

you're at like the scale of Oreo where

you do see some cool, you know, Some of

the bigger cookie behemoths are really

trying to get into the mix a bit, but

you can see the pushpull of like where

they want to innovate and then where

they're hamstrung either in

mechanization or they don't want to take

the risk of building like the robot to

make the cool cookie as cool as it could

be and they're like maybe this is good

enough. so so much of their innovation

because I'm actually really curious

about like where Milk Bar stands in all

of this because obviously you have the

Nabiscoco of the world, the Pepperage

Farms of the world who I'm sure they're

owned by some sort of food conglomerate

or private equity firm. Um or even like

Tates to me is one of the newer cookies

that is really been in storefronts for a

long time.

Then you have the people like our our

friend Lexington Bakes who's you know in

a commissary kitchen grinding itself.

you, I think, are sort of in this middle

ground where you are able to innovate,

you are able to use still incredible

products and obviously the buck stops

with you as far as keeping that quality.

But what sort of challenges have you

faced with trying to take what is like

arteasonal and beautiful and frankly

very personal to you and your story in

trying to then automate and get to that

economy of scale?

I mean, it's such a good question, Josh.

It's like 17 years of successes and

failures that are like just dotted. It's

not a straight It's not a straight line.

There's all kinds of dots along the way

of surprised to know and I learned all

of this on the job. Um because they

don't they certainly don't teach it to

you in French pastry school, my friend.

They don't have a word for cookie, nor

do they have like the P&L and and all of

the ins and outs of how it's going to go

for you. But when I started Milk Bar, I

was like, we're going to mix big batches

of cookie bit bigger than what I know

from making it at home or in my free

time as a pastry cooker, pastry chef.

So, we're going to start, we're going to

hand mix everything with a with a giant

Hobart mixer. We're going to hand scoop.

We're going to chill. We're going to

bake because this is this is this is,

you know, chef crafted cookie land. And

one of my biggest things in building

milk bar has always been taking a step

back to go like where's our bottleneck?

Where's our b we want to democratize

dessert. And as much as sort of like

hype culture and andan has had moments

along the way. I want everyone to be

able to come in that wants a freaking

cornflake chocolate chip marshmallow

cookie. And like for me there is no

greater disappointment than when you get

to your bakery that you know and love

and trust and they're like oh we're sold

out. Like for me that hurts that angry

angers me and hurts my heart because I'm

like I will text me. I will go there. I

will mix the bat. Like I really believe

when you want that dessert, you should

be able to have that dessert. You worked

hard for it. You need it. You deserve it

in life. And so in the bottleneck of it,

one of the very first bottlenecks of

milk bar was we could not scoop cookies

fast enough. Or to say differently like

me, Leslie Barren now Leslie Disher,

Courtney Mc Broom, Hela Joe Mara, right?

Like we would you'd onboard a pastry

cook. The poorest use of me or anyone

else that's like a pastry sew or

whatever's time is being on the cookie

scooping station, right? Like we need to

be running the business. But the reality

was we were the fastest cookie scooper.

So we like we are going to need a bigger

boat. Okay, we need a cookie scooping

machine. How do we find a cookie

scooping machine that allows for all of

these different crumbs and crunches and

and one doesn't exist, Josh?

Right. like it's only because the big

guys are the ones that are defining what

the industry standard is and they're not

putting cool stuff in their cookies. No.

So, we found this um burger patty

portioner after like long research. So,

you've got a bunch of gals who are

trained pastry chefs learning how to be

like food scientists and engineers and

we found this like hilarious hamburger

patty machine because you know in

hamburger patty land you want to scoop

you want to touch your dough as little

as humanly possible right or your your

patty so that it's tender and juicy and

in and in. And we found that and that

was one of our unlock. So, as we've

scaled it there is always a push pull.

You have to make a bet in order to try

and get more of your people more cookies

when they want them, where they want

them. And you learn a lot along the way,

right? Like you learn everything along

the way from to the point of like, oo,

do we want to put shortening in a

cookie? It's got such a bad rap, but it

makes a better cookie. What's the best

packaging that's going to make someone

if I can't hand you the cookie in person

at a bakery? I mean, we bake our cookies

in store at all of our, you know,

bakeries nationwide, but some people

come in and are like, I want to stuff my

bag with the cookies cuz I'm going home

and I want to bring 20 cookies in my

suitcase. Well, I can't give you the

cookies in that like amazingly cute pink

box cuz they will not make the flight.

You would also eat them all or they'd be

broken, right? So, what is the best

possible packaging experience? But you

don't want the packaging experience in

bakery to make people feel like the

cookie isn't freshly baked. And we've

we've dotted we've asked we've we've

taken these sort of like chances and

risks and asked oursel these questions

along the way. And we've gone so far in

both directions. Like we never we used

to bake everything on site and never

package anything. And then Alan

Richmond, Crazy Food, amazing food

reporter for GQ and and all of the

publications. When we first opened, we

got mad respect from him and he's like,

I'm going to bring all these cookies

home to my neighbors in Connecticut. I

was like, "Oh my god, this is a dream

come true. This is really going to put

us on the map." An hour later, I get the

most honest, heartbreaking email from

him that's basically like, "Girlfriend,

you need to get your you need to get it

together."

Oh my gosh.

Because these the the cookies, they're

crumble. Like, I can't give them to

anyone. I am this amazingly accomplished

food reporter and food reviewer. I can't

give people like, "You got to figure out

how to get your cookies to people that

aren't standing in front of you." So, I

was like, "Okay, I have an idea." We

then we started and then I was like,

we're gonna package all of our cookies.

And we packaged all of our cookies. And

then people were like, it doesn't feel

the same, right? Like I want I want to

be able to walk in and have it smell

like a cookie. And you I we went too far

into operationalizing it. Or we were

like, we're going to try a new cookie

scooping machine

because of And then all of a sudden it

it made the cookies less delicious

because there were less crumbs and

chunks and pieces. And I mean, I could

go on, but basically been fine-tuning a

recipe for 17 years. And I don't think

we're anywhere near done. And I love

that part of my job. And it also is the

most humbling, harrowing, nightmarish

part of the job, too, because y'all know

when you put up something that, you

know, is not exactly what I we can't be

like, "Close the doors, shut down the

business, no one's allowed to have a

cookie today." I mean, I don't know. Do

Anyways, these are the things that go

through a crazy cookie lover's head on a

daily bas. if it's any consolation. Um,

Anthony Bourdain wrote an entire chapter

in his book Medium Raw called Alan

Richmond is a douchebag. Oh.

Um, and so that's not me calling him

that. That's simply saying there's an

entire chapter devoted to it. So he is

very very blunt with his words. But I

think it really

Well, that bluntness is what caused a a

phenomenon.

True. Truly.

Sometimes bluntness works. Bluntness

works. We I think we we're kind of

existing in a bit of a paradox right now

where people want everything on demand,

but part of the love for certain things

is almost the exclusivity and the

scarcity of it. Right. Sure.

So, it's like we're living in this weird

area where you want something that is

artezal that's handed directly to you

from the cookie baker, but also you

don't want a crumbly cookie because

you're 2,000 miles away in a parish in

Louisiana.

Yeah. But also, can you get it to me in

an hour? I'm on an island off the coast

of wherever. Yes.

Yeah. And so it's it's incredible

watching.

That's one of the trickiest parts. It's

one of the trickiest parts of being in

business and running a business. I think

the thing I keep reminding myself, I

think we've always done our best work. I

think most people do their best work

when they have blinders on, right? Where

you are not chasing um my mom used to

call it like Mrs. Got Rocks. You're not

chasing what someone else has and you're

not chasing what you think you should be

doing. you are trying to put your

blinders and your noise cancelling

headphones on and do what you believe is

true. The world needs more of that more

than it needs more of what someone else

is doing and the referential spin-offs

because I think that just waters down

what is in the world of AI, right? We're

going to get so much goodness from it

and there's so much scary stuff from it.

I think art artistically,

if we consider cookie making an art,

which I do, but not in like a highbrow

snoody way,

we're going to get more awesome cookie

evolution if we can do more of that and

stop trying to be everything to everyone

all the time. And it's easier said than

done. I think it's easier said than

done. What I would say, like we talk

about it in bakeries, I'm always like, I

wish we could do a thing where we say to

all the people that love cookies and

love milk bar and and and the like it is

we care so much about it and we're not

going to be able to be everything all

the time. And it's hard work, not in a

feel sorry for me way, but in a um it if

you want the best possible cookie,

there's a piece of it where you have to

trust. It's not a request for respect.

It's a request of trust in what it takes

to get there. Because if the more trust

there is, the better cookie you're going

to get every time and cookie you're

going to get universally.

That was beautiful.

So glad.

For what it's worth. For what it's

worth. Just a gal. Just one gal's

opinion.

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All right, Nicole and Christina, we've

heard what you and I have to say. Now

it's time to find out what other wacky

ideas are rattling out there in the

universe. It's time for a little segment

we call opinions are like casserles.

[Music]

All right, Christina, you ready to hear

our fans first opinion about dessert? Be

easy on them. You got to be easy on

them. I mean, well, be firm. Be firm.

Be fair.

So, Sergio Ortiz says, "Hawaiian rolls

are dessert."

Here is where I love dessert so much. I

have opinions about dessert, much like

casserles.

Okay, good. And Sergio, I would say if

Hawaiian rolls are where you get your

like sweet little dirty dessert secret

sugar fix, I would 10 out of 10 eat a

Hawaiian roll as a dessert. I mean, I'd

probably like gild the lily. Like I'd

want to like break it up, lather it in

like butter and cinnamon sugar and then

bake it a new like make a cinnamon

toast. Is it a s is it an ice cream

sandwich which is a sandwich? And then

like there's so much you could do with

Hawaiian roll in dessert land. But also,

I'm I probably have been there where I'm

desperate for dessert and I'm like,

"Well, that's sweet. I'll eat that and

call it dessert, right?

I mean, it's crafted."

I feel like the the French are always

complaining. One, that could stand alone

as a statement, but they're also always

complaining about what we've done to

their beautiful brios. It is not for the

hamburger. You put, you know, bio is

like a a dessert. It's like almost like

a yeast, an eggy yeast cake. Very

similar with like bio, like um gelato

corn brio in Italy.

Sure. You know, and to me, Hawaiian

rolls, I growing up in California, Kings

Hawaiian, like that was sold with every

rotisserie chicken meal at the grocery

store, put a scoop of ice cream in a

Kings Hawaiian roll. I don't know that

you can get a better ice cream sandwich.

Let me tell you what I would do. I agree

with this 100%. I take the Hawaiian

roll, I cut it in half, I put it in a

toaster oven for approximately 30

seconds, and then I take peanut butter,

probably Laura Scutter's peanut butter

cuz you know how much my mom loves that.

And then um random chocolate chips cuz

again, ingredient household. So that

would be the dessert I would make. And

also probably a little bit of salt

because I love salty peanut butter like

a lot a lot.

And Laura Scutters ain't got no salt, no

sugar.

Laura Scutters has no joy. You must find

the joy in the peanut in the Laura

Scutters, which I do. I find the joy in

it.

Also, can we just say King's Hawaiian

Rolls? Yes. Yes. Yes. King's Hawaiian

Rolls whole business is that you're

eating your savory on a dessert item.

Yeah, for sure.

That's like the TLDDR of it. And you can

take it on so many dessert adventures.

I love it.

All right, we we got another one. This

one is

That's That's all caps. Yes.

This one is from Zack Garber. He says,

"Almost all desserts are better cold.

Cold brownies, cold cake, cold cookies,

cold pie." I'm really curious about this

one, Christina.

No, that's enough.

Where where do you stand on that? What

What temperature should a brownie be

eaten?

I'm not saying that dessert great

dessert isn't sometimes cold. 100% it

is, but it is not a universal standard.

Sometimes it's room temperature and

sometimes it's hot. A cookie should be

eaten depends on the cookie at room

temperature if it's a chewy cookie. Hot

if you are going for like, you know, a

hot out of the oven cookie. For me, it's

cookie dough that's warm slightly in the

microwave. It's a little cold. It's a

little hot in moments. Obviously cold,

but then it's like milk bar pie is best

out of the fridge, but cereal milk is

frozen. But cereal milk is frozen

because it's soft serve at like 14

degrees Fahrenheit where like hard pack

mint cookies and cream, my favorite ice

cream, is much colder than that. So I

think dessert runs the temperature

gamut. It just depends on what it is.

You ever had a cold cobbler before?

Yeah, it's not as good as a cold pie,

I'd say.

It's gross.

I think a cold pie ice cold fruit pie

though. Ice cold custard pie as well.

Do you like those?

I want my pies ice cold.

Oh no. I want the I want the And I think

even then like um if the the

or cherry pie is there like a whole song

sweet cherry pie.

Are you talking like lemon curd or key

lime pie or

those should be cold? Are you saying

that you're into cold pie?

Very cold.

Cold everything.

Well, no, not everything. Cuz I think um

like a cookie I think there needs to be

like fresh out of the oven but has sat

for about 19 minutes, you know, in a

window sill.

I agree. Okay.

But I

d it.

But I think most pies I think I want

fresh out of an ice cold diner fridge

where they they where they keep next to

the prepackaged Cobb salads.

Oh no.

Apple apple pan pie.

Yeah. You go to um you go to uh pie and

burger in Pasadena and you get their

butterscotch and mering pie. It comes at

borderline.

There you go. That I'll give you. But

I'm with Nicole and like I am not so

sure about that as a universal

statement.

No, I I like my neither am I. I guess I

like my fruitbased desserts to be on the

warmer side. Like whole fruits like

cobblers, buckles, pies. Oh, but you

know, have you ever had an unset

brownie? Sometimes an unset brownie,

which if if your intention is for it to

be ooey, gooey, delicious, dreamy,

whatever. But if it's like too if you

can't pick it up with your hand cuz it's

so melty gooey, I think that defeats the

purpose. But if you But if you set it,

cut it, let it let it like um I was

going to say it in Farscy like jam jam,

which is so random. Just get together

and then you warm it up for like 10

seconds in the microwave. I'm down with

that.

I love it.

Yeah. Plus brownie sundae. But also, you

guys, have you ever just had brownie

batter as dessert out of the fridge

without make the brownie at all?

That's dessert. That's where our guy is,

right? Where you're like, "Yeah, give me

some cold."

That's just chocolate moose, baby.

Okay. Mosha Isaac says, "Any cake with

fondant tastes very chemically and

should be banned."

I think most cake I mean, you're talking

to the lady who was like, "We stop

frosting the sides cake. We're not going

to do it anymore. Everyone, come on.

Let's start this revolution. That's

right.

Um I think cakes that are covered in

fondant are beautiful

100%. But I want to eat my cake. I don't

want to just stare at my cake. I want to

eat it. I'm here for I here I'm here not

to look at the cake. I'm here to eat the

cake. I mean fondant the makeup of

fondant most fondant. It's sugar.

There's a few other things in it. We

won't get it's not about it's not about

is fondant too expensive. We won't get

into that and all of it. But

because it is

it's sugar. I think it's more that that

fondant in it fondant implicitly is not

meant to taste like anything. It's meant

to be a duvet cover for a cake that you

can put other things on.

Oh, you're so right.

I think it's about function. I think the

tricky part is we put it over something

that people want to eat. So now everyone

has an opinion about what fondant tastes

like, rightfully so. But I think that's

where fondant is a little, you know, if

you want fondant on like your pretty

celebration cake, fine. But then get

another cake to slice into. like let it

be a centerpiece but don't have it be

the thing that people are gonna unless

they're just like unless they just want

it to taste like basically confection or

sugar because that's most of the makeup

of fondant

I had a question from like a baking

sample does the fondant kind of insulate

the cake in a way

it does

okay so so like

not not intentionally like the crumb

coat you you normally stack your cake

you put this really thin layer of icing

on call a crumb coat because it's not

meant to be a perfect coat you're meant

to see crumbs through it and that

frosting acts as glue for the fondant to

go over it. You have to keep fondant

thick enough so that you can't see the

chocolate cake below, right? You don't

want it trans almost translucent. You

want it thick enough. But you're so

right, Nicole. What fondant ends up

doing then is insulating the cake in a

way that keeps I mean our our man with

with a a love for cold dessert is

probably super into fondant covered cake

because

Do you eat fondant? Always cold on me.

I eat fondant and plain.

You eat fondant on plain? I knew you

were going to be a sicko. every day you

get sicker and sicker to me. You know

that

it's just it's kind of it's like I grew

up with a lot of guinea pigs and they'd

have like a wood bit that they'd chew

on.

What does that have to do with

Because they'd have a wood bit that they

chew on and that to me is like fondant.

It's my little wood bit. I get I like

the texture.

You like you're like a little sugar fix.

Do you like a sugar baby or a sugar

daddy? You're like, "Give me a sugar

cube. I need my sugar right now."

Literally. Yes. I'm here for you.

Do you know what my most commonly eaten

uh confection is in our kitchen? We have

those little cubes of Thai palm sugar.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I just grab them and eat them like

candy. Yeah.

So I I understand that I'm but also

Swedish princess cake that's covered in

marzipan, right? It's not a fondant.

Like a beautiful green

marzipan is not a fondant. It's like an

almond paste.

A little bit of almond and a lot of

sugar and usually a little bit of almond

extract. Like fondant could up the ante

if they added some a flavor powder or an

extract to the makeup of fondant. So

fondant actually tasted like strawberry.

Marzipan tastes like almond extract and

almond taste.

But the covering the covering on a

princess cake like it that almost acts

to me as a bit of a fondant, right? I've

never made one because I'm a coward.

I can't make one. Weird.

But I can we also say like merits of

fondant on a cake just outright. It

locks all of the moisture in. So unless

someone really overbaked the cake or

didn't soak the cake or or or you're

getting generally a pretty nice moisture

sponge on the inside cuz the moisture

doesn't have anywhere to go. It stays

locked into the cake. You have a dry

cake under your fondant. Just peel the

fondant off. Send it to Josh in a cute

DTC package.

Charge him for it.

Charge him for the packaging. He's a

happy customer. Yeah, it's fine.

Oh god, I need help. All right, this

this one is It might mean fighting words

right here, but we'll see. This is from

Guju. Less frosting means better cake.

Frosting is how bad cakes hide.

Ooh. I mean, the whole one of the other

reasons that we don't frost the sides of

the cake at Milk Bar. I love frosting, I

think, more than anyone else. And I'm in

like Josh fondant land in frosting. Like

I am at the birthday party where you get

the grocery store cake and I'm like,

give me the corner piece and I eat all

the frosting off of it

because most people I think don't put

enough thought into cake and how good

the sponge should be. Every element of

the cake should be a knockout hit in a

single bite where it doesn't need its

coconspirators in the layers of it,

frostings, fillings, whatever. That's

how a great cake is made. I think

frosting and cake have a tricky

relationship because if you have someone

that didn't really care about the cake

and was just like, "It's cake. Look,

it's a sponge. It bounces. Look, it

holds the frosting. I'm done." Then

you're going to 100% that's a mad cake.

Choo choo is right. That's a mad cake

and it's all about the frosting. But I

think people should spend more time

making an awesome sponge and then an

awesome frosting and then one's not

hiding between the other. It's a perfect

little balance relationship.

I agree with you. The relationship

between frosting and cake is a tricky

one, Christina. I have never. That is

one of the wildest statements that I've

ever heard. I almost thought that would

be one of the more simple relationships

in the world. Wow. Two things that are

wonderful that found each other, but

you're right. Sometimes great

relationships, you know, they are

tricky. You have to put in the work.

They have the

match made in heaven.

I agree with you a thousand%. I think if

you put love, care, and attention into

your sponge and you put love, care, and

attention in your frosting, then both of

them can exist within the same universe,

and they can be harmonious. It's all

about harmony. I have the best question,

the best opinion I've ever seen. Go

ahead.

I'm ready to say it.

Sunundevils 84 says, "Bcue sauce cookies

made with sweet baby rays are amazing.

Everyone should try them."

Come on.

I'm here for it. This is where I will

get so weird in a cookie. I appreciate

that it's probably not going on the menu

at Milk Bar cuz no one's going to buy

it. I know this because we had a soft

serve flavor sweet years ago and it was

kind of this time of year and I was like

it's going to be a backyard barbecue

themed soft serve sweet of four.

One of the flavors was barbecue soft

serve broom and I made that barbecue

barbecue sauce from scratch every day

with so much love and care. Family meal

was popping.

No one bought a single portion

of barbecue sauce serve. Everyone got

their free sample just to be there for

the experience,

but no one um no one bought a portion.

Maybe it was the PR of it. Like maybe we

should have just called it something

different. Also, people are willing to

take more risks I think in that flavor

and the flavor of things now like where

the flavor comes from and what it is.

People are like more like make me feel

alive. Wow. Yes. Casey Masterpiece

barbecue sauce me or or baby sweet baby

rays. Let's go.

Chasing the dragon.

I think I'm Yeah, I think you just want

to take a little bit of the water out of

the barbecue sauce. I'd want to cook

that barbecue sauce down a little bit

because there is for it to be fluid.

There's water and water is the death of

a great fudgy on the inside, crispy on

the outside cookie. It would make a

great cake.

Otherwise, I'd want to just take some of

the water out, cook it down a little bit

before I made it into a cookie. I'm not

Listen, it's not a no for me.

You should have shut down samples for

that day. You should have been like, "No

samples. Buy a full portioner. Get the

hell out of my store."

I um I had like a miso caramel the other

day and I was just like I wish I was

going to

talk about miso miso. There's something

to me about almost the uh it's like the

the glutamate of it all, you know, like

I I don't love they made that like

cheddar ice cream Vanluin did. Um but

the one like very savory ice cream that

I had the dessert at all that really

changed my mind was um everything bagel

ice cream from Jenny's I believe. Oh

yeah, that was good.

Where I was like, I'm here for the

candied garlic in it all. Um

I love a salty dessert, but there's

something about like a savory dessert

that's never quite clicked with me. But

I do love getting weird. Sometimes I get

weird.

I'm the opposite. I love savory notes in

dessert. Like I love There was this New

York Times cookie. It was the gochu jang

cookie that like exploded.

So I love the idea of pushing the

envelope. You just got to if you are

able to do the right R&D, any cookie or

any baked good can exist if you just

again put the right care, attention, and

detail into it. I wouldn't do Sweet Baby

Rays. I would actually probably do Casey

Masterpiece. So, thanks for bringing

that up cuz I agree.

Can I Can I complain about one thing?

Sweet Baby Race has too much Hold on. I

think Sweet Baby Race has too much

liquid smoke in it. I think Casey

Masterpiece is a little bit It's It's

not as smoky

and that's why I think that's why I

think it would work better.

Yeah, like a bullseye would never work.

A stubs would never work too.

A stubs would never work.

Not sweet enough.

Rufus tea wouldn't work.

In in the era where like I started like

really going to restaurants and thinking

about them and I I was writing about

food for magazines. Every single dessert

was like here is a classic dessert item

except we've added one herb or spice or

fermented ingredient that you don't

necessarily want to hear. Here's a

lovely strawberry tart but there's a lot

of black pepper and thyme in it. I love

that.

Here's a lovely chocolate lava cake. Ah,

Chipotle in the face. I love that. And

that was every dessert. And I I I love

it. We needed it. Um Ah, mustard in your

gelato.

I don't care. Yeah, give it to me.

Whatever.

Here's my take on it.

What's up?

Uhuh. My take I'm so with you, Josh.

It's the like I am so It's tricky

because I'm like 100% get excited about

flavor and experimentation and trying

things on and know when something is

ready for prime time.

Fair. Most of that stuff is like I want

to bottle up that enthusiasm because

this is the number one thing I see on

menu. Sweet and savory across the US

dining out is this mistake of like I'm

so excited about this new ingredient or

this new thing. Are they chasing a trend

or do they have like noiseancelling

headphones blinders on? Right? Like is

it really coming from them? Are they

just excited to try something new?

There's nothing wrong with trying

something new, but you have to know how

to be an editor and know when it's ready

for prime time. And most of these things

are like either this doesn't make sense

and the balance of flavor isn't right or

my palette is blown, babe. How am I

supposed to enjoy anything else and the

like you it's it's just it you it might

be something for sure, but you have to

know when something's ready for prime

time. You can't just put it on the menu.

That's you need a teen that's your

editor and you need an editing process.

And I think that's important. You need a

Josh and Nicole. You guys, everyone

needs to hire Josh Nicole as the are we

ready for prime time team. Yeah, they're

the frosting and the cake, you know.

Which one do you think you are?

Wait, what was our original podcast

name? Butter and the hot knife.

Butter and the hot knife.

She's Butter and I'm the hot knife on

97.3.

That was not the proudest moment.

Christina, truly, thank you so much.

This was such a wonderful time on the

podcast. You got anything to plug? What

what you got going on? Cookies.

Just come in and get some cookies, man.

We you can we'll ship them to your

doorstep, but really like come in for a

warm cookie any of the milk. But to your

point, I'm so with you. It's not warm

cookie, Nicole. It's a cookie that's

been pulled out of the oven. Was it 18

minutes before you come in and get it?

It's Josh said temperature cookie.

18 minutes was it? It's a room

temperature cookie that you know came

out of the oven and is cooled just

enough for you to really enjoy it. It's

neither too hot or too cold. It's just

right. do it cuz you are part of like

the cookie. You believe in the power of

a cookie. And also find more cookies

from people because we need more great

cookie makers.

Amen.

There's no such thing as too many.

The whisper of heat is left. The breath

of heat is left in the cookie. Say,

"What lines do I have?" Oh, thank you so

much for stopping by. A hot dog is a

sandwich. We got new episodes every

Wednesday wherever you get your podcast.

We got new videos out every so they know

where we are. If they've listened this

far, they know. Call us 833 dogpod1 or

tweet at us. You have our handles

probably. We'll see you next time.

[Music]

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