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We have to realize that we've been sort
of brainwashed into believing that
anytime our kids aren't with us, they're
in terrible danger of being kidnapped by
a guy in a white van looking for his
puppy or also tragic, not getting into
Harvard.
And as a result,
terrible, I don't even like to think
about it. Um,
but the upshot is that we are spending
way more time with our kids than our
parents spent with us, usually helping
them do things that they could do on
their own. And the call it the adult
takeover of childhood because it's it's
so vast that the uh what is it?
University of Michigan did a study two
years ago and they found that parents
want to give their kids independence.
They recognize its importance, but the
majority of parents of kids age 9 to 11,
which is tween, right? Kind of old, um,
will not let them play at the park with
a friend, will not let them walk to a
friend's house. And if they're at the,
you know, the store shopping together,
only 50% will let their kid go to
another aisle. Okay, that's the real
statistic. That's University of
Michigan. So sending your kid for a can
of peas is like sending them to NAM.
Okay, it's just crazy. We got to get
braver than that. We got to get brave
enough to send our kids to the canned
food aisle or to the park before their
voice changes. So how
Hi, I'm Lenor Scanazi. I am president of
Let Grow and I am the founder of the
free range kids movement. First, for
people who aren't already familiar, what
is free range parenting?
It's the idea that kids are smarter and
safer than we give them credit for. So,
they don't need us. They don't need us.
Not that they don't need us at all, but
they don't need us to help us that much.
They don't need us to supervise that
much. I'm always interested in ideas
like this where um to me a lot of it
seems like extremely straightforward and
yet it's often presented as like with
the controversial idea that kids should
have independence. So why do you think
people regard this as controversial?
I guess there's a couple reasons. One is
it's more fun if it's controversial. It
gives you something to talk about. Two
is I think we have gotten to the point
where we've forgotten that kids can do
anything on their own. I mean, you see
parents I once talked to this guy and he
said that every morning he takes his
seven-year-old to the bus stop and they
live two houses from the bus stop and
then he waits there. And I said, "Why?"
And he said, "I have no idea."
Uhhuh.
And that's that's what I'm trying to
make people look at and go, "Come to
think of it, that makes no sense.
Goodbye." You know, I'll be here or I'll
be at work. I mean, all of parenting is,
but you in particular and and the ideas
that you're um known for are at the
intersection of not just parenting, but
also culture and media and um fear and
ideas about like community and others.
Like that you're hitting at all of these
pieces that are real fault lines and
insecurities in our society.
I'm so glad you noticed that because I
feel like I wouldn't be doing this for
all these years if it was just here's
how to feed your kid a balanced diet or
something like that. But it does feel
like how did we get from my generation,
which is a long time ago, when even the
stay-at-home moms stayed at home, right,
and let their kids go out into the world
and lived without knowing anything about
them from 8:30 in the morning till 3:30
in the afternoon and then again from
4:00 till 6:00. And somehow that was not
only considered normal, nobody was
having a breakdown. Nobody was saying,
"Aren't you worried?" And nobody was
giving us up my parents updates. And
what happened to being able to live with
not seeing and knowing everything your
kid is doing every second? That's a huge
cultural shift. And it's a burden on
parents because now they feel that they
must be in the know and they must be you
know tracking or talking to the teacher
or or you know just checking in or
putting a kid in some organized activity
where somebody else is watching them.
How did we get to the point where we
don't trust our kids, our neighbors, our
own parenting at all? Before we get even
deeper into the conversation, I feel
like whenever we talk about parenting
topics and kid topics on the show, I
always just want to give like three I
don't even want to call them
disclaimers, but three things that I
really believe. So, you know where I'm
coming from, which is the first one is
that parenting is really hard and it
requires making an enormous amount of
decisions that no one could possibly be
prepared for.
And and many of those decisions will be
quote unquote wrong or suboptimal. And
that's okay because nobody ever had a
perfect parent. Like that was literally
the second thing I was gonna say which
is great. I love that which is like you
there's no way to get it right and it's
not even possible or desirable to get it
all right.
And then I think the last one which is
important I I'm a parent. I love being a
parent. I love having my son. But I also
really believe that
your life is just as full, complete and
meaningful if you don't have kids
that you just live a different life, not
a worse or less than life,
right? But I think these questions about
like trust and independence and what do
we believe a society is for
I think those are questions that apply
to individuals whatever age you are
whether you have a kid or not.
I think a lot of the push back on this
idea that kids should be alone at and do
something in any way
is based in this fear like something bad
will happen to them a crime will happen
to them. It's an explicit fear and it
comes from this idea that like the world
is bad and people are always out to get
you,
right?
That's a hard thing to push back on and
obviously you spent a long time pushing
back on that.
Yeah. So, let's talk about the belief
and then we'll talk about how to how to
maybe counter the belief.
But, um, there's a belief a lot of
people share that the best way to
prepare your child for the world is to
tell them, you know, it's a it's it's a
mean world out there. You better be
prepared. Don't be a sucker. People are
out to get you. you know, don't let them
take advantage of you. Always be on your
guard. And there was this really cool
long study, and you guys are at TED.
You'll go look it up, right? Uh that
found that these are called prior, I
think, like what is your prior belief in
the world. And parents who tell their
kids that think that they're doing them
a favor because they're making sure that
they won't be psies. They won't be
doormats, right? They won't be taken
advantage of. But somehow there was a
giant long-term study done of kids who
were told that versus kids who were
told, you know, most people are pretty
nice and yeah, I'll keep your eyes open,
but don't be distrustful. You, you know,
you can you can depend on the world. And
the kids who were told, don't don't be a
psy
relationships, worse jobs, less money,
worse health, like physical health and
mental health. And so the ironic thing
is that, you know, we've been told that
it's good to not um to prepare your kid
by telling them the worstc case
scenario. But in fact, that doesn't help
them. What I found over the years is
that you don't there's there's no way to
tell anybody, oh my god, the odds are so
small that anything bad will happen to
your kid because they always go to the
worst case scenario. I call it worst
first thinking. You go to the worst case
scenario and proceed as if it's likely
to happen. So, the only thing I've seen
that counters that very um that that
deep fear is being sort of pushed to let
your kid do something even before you're
ready because you might never be ready
and you say, you know, like it. So, the
let grow homework assignment. It's
called the let grow experience is when
kids get the assignment, go home and do
something new on your own with your
parents permission without your parent.
So, then your kid goes to the store and
they come home beaming, you know, cuz
they got the milk or they got the the
stick of butter. What is it? the stick
of butter and a loaf of bread and a
carton of milk like on Sesame Street or
they totally screwed up and they forgot
to get the change and they lost their
mitten and and it's still okay because
even if they screwed up it was okay and
only that real life experience of your
kid being separate from you doing
something on their own changes you
because parents are hardwired to worry
but they're also hardwired to want to be
raising a competent human being who will
exist when they're gone. Right. And so
you get this real flood of I guess
endorphins or just confidence and that
allows you to do it again.
A parallel that I've thought about when
in preparing for this interview is I
really love to swim
and I love being in the ocean or lakes
or rivers and
of course
if I'm swimming in the ocean, it is also
true that there are sharks or stingrays
or or something somewhere in this vast
expanse of water. And it would be really
easy to say like because there's the
chance
of a shark, I should not enjoy this
thing that I really enjoy, but I can
read the statistics and understand that
I'm like far more likely to be killed by
a vending machine falling on me than a
shark. And then
watch out.
Yeah. And so I don't avoid vending
machines. And the only way to like get
over that like visceral fear for me at
least is to just like go and be in the
water and then realize like it's okay.
I didn't get attacked by a shark and it
was so great. It felt really good. And
then I keep going and it feels better
every time. And eventually the idea of
like a shark attack, I'm like, "Yeah,
but I also could get into a car crash on
the way to the beach."
Oh, much more likely. Yeah.
Much more likely. Um, and I feel like
that experience is way heightened with
parenting, but you kind of have to have
that over and over of like something
might happen, but it probably won't. And
the only way to get out of that visceral
thing is to just allow the kid to do
some version of this.
We had a psychologist named Camilo Ortiz
do a uh what is it called? a pilot study
of independence as actual therapy for
kids with a diagnosis of anxiety
and normally he does cognitive
behavioral therapy but uh he recruited
four kids he recruited four families
where uh the kids had like not just like
oh I'm scared but like you know heart
palpitations or they couldn't go to
school I mean sort of off the charts
worse than just everyday anxiety and uh
the way he treated them was the first
week he just had the two parents come
and he talked to them and he found out
like the main reason that they were
there. And in one case it was uh a
nine-year-old, no, a 10-year-old who was
afraid to go upstairs and downstairs in
his own home. And in another case, it
was a girl who was afraid to sleep in
her own bed, nine years old. And then he
had the parents come with the kid. And
normally
in cognitive behavioral therapy, it'd
be, "Well, kid, you know, I hear you're
afraid to go upstairs in your own house.
How about tonight you go up for five
minutes and come down and see how that
felt, and then tomorrow, you know, next
week we'll do 10 minutes." He didn't
talk about that fear at all. He didn't
mention the deficit or the problem. And
instead, he said, "You're 10. You know,
I've been talking to your parents about
how you're probably ready to do more
than they let you do. What are some
things that you want to do that you
haven't done on your own?" And in fact,
that 10-year-old wanted to walk home
from school. He wanted to take the Long
Island Railroad. And he wanted to do
some other things. And his job was to do
one new thing either every day or every
other day for four weeks. And he did
these things. And it really changed him
to the point where that was like over
the summer and then came the new school
year and it was he was about to go into
middle school which is a new school and
of course because this is what I say
it's our culture that's sort of driving
us crazy that the school sends home a
new school year is looming and of course
your child will be completely flumxed
and confused and probably intimidated
because they have to find a locker and
they're going to meet new people and
there's shiny slippery floors. whatever
it is, you might want to come with them
just to ease the transition. And he told
his parents, "Uh, no, I I got this." And
he went to school by himself that first
day. And he came home and he said, "I
was like the only one there without my
parents."
So to me, it says so many things. It
says that a little confidence goes a
long way. Knowing that your parents
trust you goes a long way. And then you
have a culture undermining you every
step of the way, pretending that going
to a new school is so hard that no child
should ever have to do it without, you
know, parental guidance, which is not
true. We can all go to a new school and
make our way.
It also feels like there's this real
hesitance to believe that
you can learn these skills, that like
skills are learnable. You know, it's
like I have to do it for my kid because
like there's there's some sort of set
level of ability that they have and they
only get it by getting older, not by
trying. Right.
Yeah. Or they only get it by being
specifically taught. I was reading some
meme yesterday. Shows you where I am at.
I love the reading a meme.
I was Well, there are some words. Um,
and the words on this one were, "If
school started at age zero, there would
be, you know, classes on how to teach
your child to walk because we've started
to assume that everything needs adult
guidance and specific instruction as
opposed to things kicking in,
but a lot kicks in and and we don't see
it anymore because we do have all these
classes to teach kids things." And so
that's why my whole TED talk boils down
to I hope the title they give it is
spend less time with your kids because
when you do they will start learning
stuff on their own and they will be
clumsy and take minor risks and
sometimes be you know mean or or hurt or
whatever and you know that's okay
because that's how they get to this
competence. To think that it's all
adult-ledd is like nobody taught you to
speak, right? And that's because
curiosity and the desire for things like
the desire to communicate, the desire to
make things happen are innate. And we
keep forgetting that there's any innate
curiosity or drive in kids. And you know
the whole teachable moment idea, let
them have some curiosity of their own.
And what looks like doawling and what
looks like inefficiency is how you
become efficient. Right? So my son is a
toddler
and because of that I get fed a lot of
you know the social media algorithms see
me a lot and I do think that everything
you're saying really resonates with what
I like with my prior beliefs and what my
inclination is and also I think one of
the challenges is especially since I'm
doing it for the first time
there's this fear and guilt
and fear of shame.
Yeah. And so like you gave the example
of like it's not like you needed to
teach them how to speak, but literally
on my phone I'll get videos that are
like if you don't do this your child
will not learn how to speak correctly.
Make sure that you're mimicking the
sounds back to them. like they that is
like a very common thing that I see on
there and I I have the same thought as
you and but
wait a minute how dare they how dare
they undermine you that way and turn
parenting into this huge drag and
fearfilled experience that's just so
unfair.
Well, that's what I that's my question
for you is because I feel like I have a
fair amount of confidence in myself as a
parent.
Partly because I worked at an elementary
school and did Yeah, I taught fifth
grade and
You did? Oh my god. So, I kind of have
been around kids and also I just
naturally really like being around kids
and playing with them and so
um I have a fair amount of confidence
but it is hard. Yeah, exactly. It's it's
hard because you're like there is a very
strong feeling as a parent of like well
you don't really get another shot at
this like if I mess it up then maybe
they're going to be messed up for life.
That's so interesting you use that
phrase, the mess up phrase, because
that's the phrase that I've been hearing
a lot among kids.
And when people talk about kids being
anxious and depressed, one of the things
is that they are so afraid of messing up
that they're sort of retreating
and and of course, I don't even want to
talk about like social media and the
idea of being videotaped while you're
messing up. So then there's that whole
other layer of potential embarrassment.
But um you know, did you mess up walking
into the room? What if you tripped? Oh
my god, that guy cannot walk. You know,
I mean, nobody's perfect. And the idea
that that there is some straight path
and otherwise you're deviating and your
kid is not never going to talk because
you didn't say, "Honey, this is a cup of
tea."
It's so wild. I mean, it's really
interesting that we have a culture that
can drain us of so much common sense and
confidence. And often it's so that they
can instill something else, which is a
class or a book or a product that you
have to buy.
And you know, I like our country. I like
capitalism. But the easiest dollar to
get from any human being is a dollar of
a parent that you've scared that somehow
your kid is going to be hurt or fall
behind. But I have a solution.
Absolutely. I've spent a lot of those
dollars.
Don't spend anymore.
Okay. So, so this is this is a big
question for you, which is what is the
the end goal of this movement that
you're leading? What what how does
society change when we embrace this? How
what does what's the big shift in the
end?
I think it would be a sort of trust
revolution like you would start trusting
yourself. Evolution has created a way
for kids to get ahead. even if you
weren't speaking three million words to
them at dinner tonight,
um you would trust your neighbors more
because your kid would be walking to
school and you'd realize that they were
fine and in fact, you know, two doors
down the lady gave them a ball or
whatever. So, it would be trusting the
school that you don't have to see
pictures from them every day. You don't
have to get a report from them every
hour how the kid is doing. It'd be
trusting the camp. You don't have to see
if your kid is smiling at the cookout.
It would just be sort of breathing
easier. And one of the big lies of our
culture is that the more information you
have um the more easier you can breathe,
right? Oh, you know, you'll be tracking
your child. Finally, you'll have peace
of mind. No, my mom had peace of mind
because she trusted me
to walk to school and trusted the
neighbors not to kill me and eat me,
right? And and information is sort of
the opposite of trust. So, this is an
unformed idea, but um Adam and Eve are
in the Garden of Eden and a snake comes
along and says, "Look, you can track
your kids." Right. Right. It's like,
"Oh, that'll give me peace of mind."
Yes. You'll have knowledge. You'll know.
When I have my phone, I show people that
my Maybe this happens with your kid,
too, as a toddler. the the daycare
center that she sends her kid to sends a
report at the end of the day that tells
you, you know, when they peed and
whether it was number one, you know,
number two or number one and how much
they ate and all this superfluous,
completely unnecessary information,
unless your kid was really ill and you
were getting information from the NICU
on like this worked for them or finally,
you know, they could eat something. But
treating everything as if it's so close
to death that you better have every bit
of information on are they surviving,
are they thriving is a really radically
crazy way to look at childhood and your
kid. And it drives you crazy the same
way if your kid was really ill. And so
to be able to step back from that is the
only way you can breathe easier. The
only option for us to feel confident and
hopeful as parents is trust or faith or
whatever you want to call it other than
constant information and constant
intervention. And we're being told the
opposite.
Absolutely. I think that one of the most
challenging things that I've had to do
as a parent so far is a really small
one. He was born a little he was born
early
and so there was a genuine need at
first. Well, there's certainly a lot of
fear, but there was also a genuine need
to track how much he was eating at
first.
Okay.
And so we had a notebook and we would
write down how much he ate.
And once he was doing fine,
we kept doing it and and uh a lactation
consultant came and, you know, helped
out with a lot of stuff, but then she
asked us, "What's your plan to stop
tracking?"
Oh, God bless her.
And I was so surprised by that. And I
genuinely felt like that was one of the
hardest transitions of the whole
parenting journey was to decide like
this thing that feels like very active
and I'm doing it and when I do it I
protect my son. And then I had to be
like actually it's okay if I don't know
how many ounces he ate today. It doesn't
matter. He's fine. It was really hard to
stop writing it in the notebook because
at the end of the day I could add it up
and go looks like we're good parents.
And then the next day I when we stopped
doing it, it was like I guess he's okay.
Yeah.
And that had to be I I guess I'm a good
parent because I got him to a place
where I don't need to do that. But that
was a big mental shift.
Yeah. I I'd say just accept the fact
that you're a good parent, period.
Without any evidence,
okay? Because there will be evidence
along the way that you think you're a
terrible parent because your kid does
something stupid or bad. And it's not
that you're a bad parent. It's that
people are people,
right? And when you stopped writing this
down and it was like a week later, did
you feel better that you weren't writing
it down?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
But it was the the the transitional days
were the really hard ones.
Right. So that's what that's what
LetGrow is trying to do. We're trying to
make we're trying to be that lactation
consultant in a way. It's like I know
you think you have to walk your kid to
the bus stop. I know you think you have
to watch every soccer game. I know you
think that things are better if you're
in the backyard with them. Oh, I'm not
paying you. I'm not interfering. I'm
just like, "Oh, do you need a band-aid?"
Yeah. Not interfering. Oh, do you need a
sip of water? Not interfering. Oh, you
know, it's his turn. Anyways, if you can
take that step back, then you get to
that point like you were a week later
when it's like, "Oh, this is going okay.
Oh, I can trust my kid's, you know, guts
and internal system and and their
health. And once you can do that, then
your kid is is I don't want to say
better off because that becomes this
judgy thing again, but you can breathe
easier, right? So, I'm going to beg
here. Um, our programs are free. All our
materials are free. If you go to
letGGrow.org
and you click on schools, if you're a
teacher or principal or whatever, or you
show it to your school, you can just get
the LetGrow experience, which tells all
the parents in the school to let their
kids do something new. And that's like
the lactation expert. It is a trusted
authority, the school, telling you that
you can take a step back and let your
kids step up. And once you've done it a
couple times, then you will breathe
easier. And then you will see other kids
around in the neighborhood. And then
there will be kids doing errands for
you. And then there will be kids just
saying like, "I can do this myself." And
you will feel great. And you will
actually have a little free time.
There's so much that's really practical
that like you can do today. So let's
look at a couple different ages of kids.
Um
if someone has a
say a toddler,
a toddler. Yeah. Yeah. We can start with
me. Let's start. Say a toddler. How can
you start uh embodying these principles
um at at an early age?
The best book about this I thought was
certainly not mine was a book called
hunt gather parent. I'm sure she's given
a talk or will um Michelene Dloff or
something and she says that uh just like
there's an innate drive for a lot of
things like eating and you know sleeping
there's an innate drive in kids to help
out they really want to be part of
something and the part of something is
your family or your community. I didn't
read this book when my kids were young,
so it didn't work. But it seems like a
great idea for other people, which is
have them help out. And I know it takes
forever and I know they will spill and
they'll do a lousy job of cleaning up,
but if you could have them like, you
know, fold the napkins for dinner or
sort the laundry. Not that I even sort
the You don't have to sort your laundry,
just do it on cold. It's so obvious. Um,
but just have them do some things. They
love being part of stuff and you and um
there was a lecture here or talk um by
Jennifer Wallace about how kids want to
everybody wants to matter. Well, you
know, weave them into the fabric of
everyday life and then they don't even
have to question that. Of course, I'm
the kid who takes out the garbage. And
as they get older, just have them do
more stuff in the real world and then
have them do it without you. And they
can always do it with a friend or a
sibling. So, if you're afraid of them
just being by themselves at the grocery,
have them go with a friend. But there's
nothing more exhilarating than being
competent. I mean, it feels great. I
feel great. I just did my TED talk. I'm
done. I have I like the pinnacle of
competence for me. It feels so good. Why
would we take that away from our kids by
doing everything with them and for them
and always assisting them, you know, the
message they get is that you love me and
you don't think I'm really that smart.
And it feels like when kids get to be
teenagers, they have a very natural push
of like even if you are trying to not
have them be independent, they're going
to say like I want to be independent. I
I I I need this space. Um
I wonder I wonder if that's getting
extinguished too. I've seen kids who are
in middle school, maybe not high
schoolers,
they seem sometimes, and I haven't seen
that many schools, and and I've seen
kids in school, so maybe that's that's
the problem, but they seem really
passive.
And you want that drive to be there even
if it drives you nuts
for thinking about like the practical
thing that someone could do. What if
they are
they've they're listening to this,
they watch your talk, they read your
book, and they're like, "Okay, I'm I'm
kind of sold on this, but I haven't been
doing this."
Oh, so so sorry. What's the first step
to to start?
Send them out to help you. Do something,
you know, go get something. Go run an
errand. Go talk to the neighbor. Um,
help me with this or do this instead of
me.
I've been doing this for you. I bet you
could do this now.
It's It's interesting because it really
is so simple, right?
It's so simple that I'm supposed to be
writing now
a 30 days to a LetGrow kid. And I have
resisted this for 17 years because I
think like duh.
Yeah. You know, it's like open the door,
let them go play outside, let them I
keep saying the same things. Have them
run an errand, have them get themselves
to their guitar class, whatever. And I'm
realizing that people do want
instruction because we've almost been
instructed to expect instruction. And
when you just told me at the beginning
of this talk that you're getting stuff
in your social media feed every day on
how to talk to your kid and feed your
kid and whatever else you're getting.
Yeah. I guess I didn't realize how much
prescription was being shoved down
parents' throats and I didn't want to be
part of that,
but if that's how people get their
information and sort of get get the
permission to do new things, then I got
to I got to get with the program. I got
to write that thing.
I do think that I do think that there's
so much of that information out there
and I do think that this makes so much
sense. I also think that it is really
countercultural. There there are a lot
of for forces that are saying like
having your kid be not immediately
supervised, not instructed in all of
these things. That is a wild radical
idea even though it's so simple. That's
what that's the message that I get from
the parenting media that is served to me
and from the parents on the playground
and all the other places is like that's
wild. But if people understood how much
kids learn when they're not with us and
when they're not in a class, then they
wouldn't keep thinking that it was like
either kids were being safe and educated
or lying and they're in danger.
So the Yale study uh took parents coming
into a museum in Philadelphia and they
told group A, the kids were like five
years old, your kid has to put on all
this hockey gear um because that will
get them in the mood for the museum. Mh.
And then group B was told, um, your kids
have to put on this hockey gear. And let
me tell you, every time they're trying
to figure out how to make, you know, how
to do that toggle or how to pull on that
boot, they are learning. Each of those
is a learning experience. And then they
clicked to see how many times parents
were helping the kids. And the ones who
knew that it was who' been told this is
a learning experience intervened half as
much.
Wow. because they are immediately
recognized like okay he's struggling but
their signapses are building you know
and cognitive ability is kicking in. If
if everybody understood that about
independence that even when a kid is
waiting at the bus stop and the bus
doesn't come and it's late realizing
like oh I should go home again or I
guess it's time for me to walk to school
all that's executive function that's
paying attention that's a agency the big
word of the year agency. then maybe they
could step back because they would see
how much is going on when they're not
teaching them and not watching them. And
that's also the what I want people to
recognize about play. Like when kids are
given time to just just play. Oh my god,
it's just child's play. I wish they
would get that play out of the way so
they could get back to learning. You're
learning so much when you're playing and
you're making friends and you're getting
exercise. And so there's like it is the
most nutrientdense thing that kids could
do for their minds and their bodies and
their future selves and their social
lives and their joy,
right? And we're all worried about kids
being anxious and depressed. Look, well
h we have a natural cure here. It's
called free play. Kids are driven to do
it. We keep replacing it with travel
soccer. If you step back, actually that
is an enriching experience for them. I
think that if people recognize that, at
least they would sign their kids up for
free play after school just the way they
signed them up for chess.
It's reflective to me also of in
American culture, there is a real push
to not have moments of
inactivity or boredom or silence, right?
Like I go from working on my computer
to I'm actively doing something and then
while I'm waiting for the bus, I'm
looking on my phone. There there's
really like I'm never supposed to be.
It's not even ever supposed to be. It's
it is boring to be bored. Yeah. And now
there's a lot of ways to get out of that
very quickly and I do it all the time
too. But I don't think it's it's frowned
upon. I just think that the that there's
so much water that immediately seeps in.
So I got to tell you this one guy I met
here, Adam Harwitz, he studies dreams
and he said collectively our dreams are
getting less interesting. Why?
Wow.
Why? I guess because we don't have as
much boredom or free time
because when we're bored now, we
immediately go to our phones, which I do
even when I'm in the, you know, checkout
line. And so we've gotten less good at
daydreaming, so we're less good at
nightdreaming.
Wow, that is fascinating.
Isn't that wild?
That is really wild. Um
there are, you know, sometimes with with
issues like this which are are cultural,
but they're also, you know, parenting
and they're societal. There are models
of other places that do it better. And
one one that I think about is I love the
um the TV show Old Enough. I think it is
so fun.
I met a guy from Japan here yesterday
like laughing at me.
It's incredible. It's just like Japanese
kids, often very young, doing errands
outside of the house and it is so funny.
And it's also just especially watching
it as an American, you're like
and especially you got a toddler.
It's incred. Yeah. Because you you know
it it'll be like a a six-year-old will
like go harvest spring onions and then
like sell them at the market and then
come back with like a whole thing of
sushi and the mom is like, "Hooray, you
did it." Or the funniest episodes are
where they they completely fail at the
task and they like decide to go off the
rails. But
it's not because they fail in the way
that like we're scared of. Right.
Right. It's like he's like, "Actually, I
want orange juice instead." So then he
goes and buys orange juice instead of
the groceries. But that is indicative,
right? Like the fact that they can make
that show in Japan and it and it wasn't
like
well
Japan's most wanted criminals who let
the kids do this.
Right. Right. So
it does it more maybe.
Right. So people think that it's an of
course if we lived in Japan we'd all be
doing that. But there's two things going
on there. One is it's the society that
says it's fine. But two, it's a society
that recognizes that a six-year-old, and
actually those kids go down to two,
which seems a little young, um, are
competent or can be reasonably competent
enough to the point where you can film
them doing something. So, and what I
really love, there's one episode where
it's it's a girl who's like about five
and her brother who's three, and they're
going they're always going to get
something for sushi. It always makes you
hungry. And and the little boy is crying
crying his eyes out at the beginning.
And if this was American TV cut,
you know, or a mother like, "How's the
mother gonna let him go? He's crying,
honey. Why aren't you going to to soo
him?" It's like, because he's going to
be beyond soothed by going to the
butcher and then going to the rice store
and going to the vegetable place and
then going to the fish that they go to
like, you know, like a five course meal,
right? And at the end, you know, he's
really happy and proud. And that that
dip is something that we almost don't
allow. And it's really hard to allow it
in American culture because we think we
have to jump in when our kids are
disappointed or a little frustrated or
whatever. Which is why my whole message
boils down to we can't be with them all
the time. But when you're with your kid
and they're, you know, confused or hurt,
you inevitably
step in. Or even if they're
suboptimized, let me do that for you.
That's taking forever. So the only way
to not jump in is to not be there to
jump in. So that's why the message
becomes pretty basic, which is we can't
always be with our kids. You can't have
an adult always with your kids or they
will change childhood.
I grew up in New York City.
Yay.
And um
where
I grew up on the upper west side. Okay.
And when people ask me what it was like
to grow up in New York, one of the
things that I always tell them is that
the best time
was when I was old enough to do things
on my own but not old enough to drive a
car. And that for a lot of kids that's a
really boring period of time.
Right. and a horrible time for parents
because they are stuck driving the car
the whole time.
But for me, I can be like, I'm gonna go
walk to my friend John's house. We're
going to go to the movies. We're going
to go to a concert downtown. And when I
think about what informed my sense of
self, my my passions, my the kind of
music that I like, the kind of movies I
like, just like who I am. So much of it
was having that independence in a place
where there was a lot going on. And so I
share that to say like it would have
been such a different experience and so
negative if my parents had said you live
in a city it's dangerous you can't do
those things instead of saying this is
the benefit of where you live is that
you get to do those things. The first
time like my dad I know you have a very
personal relationship to letting your
kid take the subway. Yeah. But there's
like this, you know, there was a there's
a moment in our in my family history
that's like we always laugh about, which
is that the first time my parents let me
take the subway alone, my dad like
secretly followed me and like rode in
the car behind me. But that's a funny
story to me because he didn't keep doing
that. Like he just did it that one time
and then he was like, "Okay, you're
fine."
And so I think like that independence is
it let me be who I am. But I also
I realized that that must have been
pretty scary for my parents to allow
that. like it must have been
nerve-wracking and uncomfortable even
though it was so important to me.
Right? So, another thing that strikes me
as strange about our culture is that
people think like they can be parents
without worrying.
Like, are you kidding? Are you kidding?
Have you ever had even a goldfish? And
now you have a kid. Yeah.
Right. And so that's one of the reasons
that all this surveillance and tracking
and, you know, constant knowledge of our
kids is supposed to, you know, supposed
to alleviate that worry and it doesn't.
Worry is part of the deal and your worry
is sort of a small price to pay for your
kids thriving.
It's a big price to pay.
It is a big price.
I shouldn't say it's a small price to
pay. It's a big I hate worry. I hate
worry and I do worry. People think I
don't worry. The only thing I don't
worry about is the subway and strangers.
I worry. Oh my god. My kids drive it. I
can't even They don't even tell me. Like
my son drove to Canada from New York
recently and I was like he didn't let me
know and I was grateful because I didn't
know. Yeah. Right.
It's also as an adult, I feel like
another genre of social media video. Um,
and we actually have interviewed him on
the show is um, Ja Jang. He wrote a book
called Rejection Therapy. And so,
oh, the guy who went around trying to
like do things that would always get
rejected, like ordering lobster at
McDonald's.
Exactly. And what he found, I mean, he's
very focused on adults doing this for
themselves, but what he found was all
these things that he built up in his
head as like, if I go to the doughnut
store and say, "Can you make me one
giant donut instead of six normalsiz?"
Of course, they'll say no. And not only
will they say no, they'll get mad at me
and kick me out. And instead, what he
found is that like sometimes people said
no, and it wasn't a big deal. And often
people said yes and were excited. And
then he had like this great connection
and relationship. So, I do think there's
this this element of what you're working
on with parents to do to their kids that
also a lot of adults we need to do for
ourselves, which is to say like
a lot of what I'm fearful about in the
world, if I tested that against reality,
wouldn't hold up. And instead, I would
have
a more magical, exciting, and connected
life if I just trusted a little bit
more.
Trust is the key. But living in the
United States, um, social trust is not
our strongest suit, especially not in
this moment. But like I guess I'm
wondering like even for people who
aren't parents or for parents who are
not thinking about this with their own
kids.
Um,
what can we do to challenge our
assumptions?
I got an easy one.
That this world is that we shouldn't
trust people and that it is a dangerous
and vicious place out there.
So there was this other cool experiment
done with college students. Half the
group of 300 kids was told um to read
some article about like the world is a
nice place and the other half were said
okay for five days next week on day one
you have to compliment somebody whose
shoes you like day two you have to
compliment somebody whose earrings
earrings you like you know day three
something else ask somebody the time and
everybody was asked beforehand you know
are you going to you how do you feel
about oh I'm going to look like an idiot
people are going to be annoyed and of
course the people who ended up actually
interacting with their fellow humans
found the opposite and then they kept
wanting to talk to humans because
reality is really way better than
whatever is going on in our head. Which
is why all I'm trying to do is come up
with ways of forcing reality upon
parents so that they get to live in the
real world instead of this terrible
world that our culture has foisted into
our head of everything being dangerous
and our kids being in constant peril. I
feel already there's a real strong
pressure to be like your kid is a
representation of you. You're supposed
to get things from your kid. You're
supposed to get validation and you're
supposed to get social approval and
you're supposed to get all of these
things. And that I think is a really
strong force to think like it's not just
you're supposed to love them and you're
supposed to do your best for them. It's
also that if they're in the playground
and they're like
playing it's on you. Yeah. It's
embarrassed. That's why have I said this
before? That's why if you're with your
kid all the time, of course you will
intervene because honey, we use our
indoor voice or honey, we share our toys
and the kids going bam, bam, bam.
Yeah. You know what though? People will
feel really great if your kid is bad
because then they'll feel good. So your
kid will always be invited.
But I feel this even like I try and push
back on this for myself, but then I feel
this like
I'll give you a small example. Yeah. Um,
I know that the way that you learn to
use a spoon is by using a spoon.
So, if I'm alone and we're eating food,
I'll be like, "Use the spoon. Make a
mess." But then, if someone else is in
our house, I'm like, "It's going to be
embarrassing to have the mess. Maybe I
shouldn't let him eat with the spoon.
Maybe I should give him food that is not
messy so that they don't see me."
One of those things.
Yeah. So I understand that not as like
an instinct that is in the best interest
of my child as much as it is in the best
interest of the social image I have of
myself.
So try to get rid of that social image.
Good luck. Um it'd be good if you could
because everybody knows that kids are
total messes. What I wouldn't want to be
around your kid with a spoon is if
they're going to fling it,
right? So I could understand like you
know not wanting to get it on me. Yeah.
Also, nobody's paying that much
attention. It's sort of like I remember
in junior high being so acutely aware at
a bar mitzvah of no one dancing with me
and I think that nobody was paying
attention. And I'm I'm weirded out that
I still feel that way to a certain
extent like everybody's talking at Ted.
Doesn't anyone want to talk to me? I I
think that we're all creatures of
intense mortification
and self-consciousness. And if you could
just realize how little anybody cares or
is judging a toddler for not using a
spoon, well, you could ease up.
Great. I love that. Thank you so much
for being on the show. This is such a
fun.
Thank you. This was this was a wild
romp.
Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed this
episode of How to be a better human.
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