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Karen Jeanpierre spent three years as
the face of the Biden administration.
She was the press secretary, the person
who turns up in the White House every
day and whose face becomes very familiar
to viewers of television as the person
who is putting the points that the
administration wants to put to the
American people and indeed to the wider
world. She has written a book. The book
is called Independent, a look inside the
broken white house, outside the party
line. So she has left the Democratic
Party. She's become an independent but
she is very much still a supporter of
the party and as she is telling the
world the party needs to change. The
party needs to be the kind of party that
she can support in the future. I sat
down with her for a conversation which
you can hear now.
[Music]
>> Americast
from BBC News.
Karen Jean Pierre, thank you so much for
joining us. Welcome to the podcast.
>> Thank you so much for having me, Justin.
>> We we get a load of of um feedback from
people who listen and almost
always almost every week, almost every
episode of our podcast, they're saying,
"What's happened to the Democrats? Where
are they? Who's speaking for them? When
are they going to resurface?" So, I I
want to get to all the rest of what
you've written about um in in a second,
but can we start there just from what
what's your take on where the party is
at the moment?
>> Well, what my take is is that the party
is lost. I feel as if the party has lost
their soul. One of the things that
concerned me very early on in the Trump
administration was when the the
administration was trying to push
forward their nominees, some very
unqualified nominees, and you had
Democrats in the Senate who basically
rubber stamped Trump's nominees, which
for me sent a signal that you they
weren't going to fight. Project 2025 was
loud and clear. And the fact that they
were not prepared for a Trump
administration the moment he stepped in
was concerning. And now what I'm seeing
even more that's more concerning is
there's just continues to be no fight
because mentioning them doesn't poll
test well. They're throwing communities
under the bus. And so that's concerning
because we're supposed to be the
Democratic party is supposed to be a big
tent party. When you think about the
LGBTQ community, when you think about
migrants and immigrants and you don't
see enough fight enough enough of a
we're going to stand up and fight for
this community and they're silent or
they're not, you know, they're not
really coming up with a strategy. That's
concerning and it is very much, oh,
okay, that doesn't pull test, you know,
well, oh, the the country is afraid of
migrants, so therefore we're not going
to be mentioning them or fighting for
them. Oh, you know what? the LGBTQ
community. We can't we really can't
support the LGBTQ community because no
one wants, you know, Novo wants some of
the policies or some of the issues or
some of the freedoms that the community
should be having. And one thing to know
about me, Justin, is that I'm obviously
a black woman. I also am part of the
queer community. I'm also an immigrant.
And when you hear things like that about
communities that you participate in,
that you're part in, then you feel like
you're not representing and no one's
fighting for you. And just like you were
hearing when I came out of the
administration, the Biden Harris
administration very obviously in
January, very early on this year, I was
hearing from people. They were saying to
me, "What's going on? Where is the
fight? Where is the fight? Why aren't we
ready?" And that actually led to me
trying to figure out my voice in this
moment in the book. I mean just to take
one issue then which is is is biological
males playing in in in women's sports.
So that's an an issue that really harmed
the Democrats, didn't it, during the
election? Are you suggesting that on
that issue the Democrats just say,
"Look, we think it's a moral issue. We
think people who are trans should be
able to to choose where they play their
sports. We're going to stick to it. And
if you don't like that, then don't vote
for us. I mean, isn't that
>> Well, here's the thing, Justin. I think
I
>> way of just committing electoral
suicide.
>> I I actually I actually disagree because
we should not go down a rabbit hole
because Republicans are telling us don't
say woke or or this issue or that issue.
We should stand on moral ground and
really really really try to do our best
to protect people who feel vulnerable.
It's not about having a debate. Don't
have the debate. Just say where you
stand and move forward and focus on
things that will move the country
forward. Focus on the economy.
>> Yeah. But you'll be asked about those
things, weren't you?
>> Yeah. But here's the thing. I mean, I
wasn't part of the campaign, so I wasn't
part I I can't speak to their their uh
strategy. Obviously, I was part of the
uh part of the uh as White House press
secretary. I was speaking for the
president uh and I was part of the
government and the white house and I
think what I am trying to say is that
there are issues there have been issues
in the past again civil rights issues
human rights issues that were not
popular that were not popular where the
country wasn't there but it is it cannot
there has to be a time where it's not
about politics where it has to be about
your moral compass to doing the right
thing and standing up. Let me ask you
then are are there are there any is
there anyone in the party at the moment
who who you think is doing that? So we
on the on the podcast quite recently we
focused on the campaigns in um u
Virginia and in New Jersey these very
important gubernatorial campaigns. Um
and you've got two I mean I suppose you
could describe them in shorthand as
moderate Democrats uh in Spamberger and
Micah Cheryl who are who are going for
those and likely to win. And of course
also and we've done a an entire episode
on Zoran Mandani and this incredible
campaign.
>> Yeah. Very different story. Yeah.
>> Does do do any of those well do any who
excites you from there? Do or do do any
of them?
>> Look, Mom Donnie obviously is an
incredible incredibly impressive
candidate. He has managed to get young
people excited and he has he has done
something that you don't see politicians
certainly Democrats doing which is going
directly to the American people when he
was riding the train and having
conversations with people they felt
heard they felt listened to they felt
seen and so those are the things that
are that are missing and I think there
there are things that he's doing that
certainly on the national level
Democratic leadership could listen to
that and take some direction on how to
communicate with people. I believe
Democrats should go into Republican
district and talk to a Republicans of
Republican voters about the economy. I
believe they should also be standing in
front of a hospital that's about to shut
down because of GOP hikes and have a
press conference and say, "Hey, this is
what's going on." There's so many things
that they can do so that voters see them
and see them fighting for them. And I
think that is one of the things from
Mumani that has been quite impressive
and something for them to to learn from.
>> And are you happy to see the Mumani kind
of candidate in a place like New York
where it looks as if he can win and win
big, but also a completely different
sort of candidate. So, one of the things
we've been discussing on the podcast is
this business of whether you should run,
for instance, people who are not keen on
abortion in some states where there are
more conservative voters, including
voters who used to vote Democrat but
don't anymore. I mean, I guess West
Virginia is an obvious example, or
should you have a kind of um litmus test
of what is acceptable and what isn't
acceptable? Where do you where do you
stand on that? I look I believe that
right now
if you are a part of a community or if
you identify in what whatever way just
know that if when they come for one they
come for all of us which means we have
to stand together. We have to stand
together. There's a large fight ahead of
us and if we don't do that then we're
going to be in a world of hurt as a
country as a people. And so what I want
to see, I think what's important is that
you have candidates that listen,
acknowledge, and speak to what people
really care about. Look, one of the best
examples that I can give you, um, and
it's not even coming from elected
officials. It's coming from the people,
the people of this country. When 7
million people came out for the no kings
rally not too long ago and it was the
third one which meant that it grew by
millions. That is telling you like like
elected officials these leadership
should see okay this is where the this
is where 7 million people came out. This
is where many many voices are. They're
afraid about what's going on in our
democracy and that is something to tap
into. I actually believe we need a
functioning two-party system in order to
have a democracy. You learn that in
polyai and what's happening now. Our
system is broken and we have too much of
politics in it and we need to bring
people power in it. And so that is what
matters to me. How do we get people more
engaged, more involved, especially young
people. Young people are becoming more
independent by the day.
>> Right. Talking of saving democracy, um I
mean one of the things you write in the
book that I think will amaze people in
particular is that you you didn't think
that Kamela Harris after she took over
from Joe Biden, you didn't think she was
going to win. And I I think a lot of
people will say what what if if you
didn't think she was going to win and if
other people didn't think she was going
to why on earth did you run her?
>> Wait, first of all, I didn't run
anybody. I don't have that power. So
thank you so much. But but the rest but
but Justin let me let me I'm going to
lay this out for you. Um two things
could be true and the two things are
>> I was proud that she was running. I was
I think she's more than qualified to be
president of the United States. And I
think she did a phenomenal job in those
107 days. And as a black woman who lives
in this country and walks through this
world, I could also have doubts because
of my personal experiences in walking in
this body and looking like the way that
I do. You know, only people who've been
otherred or live in, you know, live in
in spaces where they don't see
themselves can understand that. It is it
is very it is a it is a feeling that is
sad uh but very real. Very very real.
and she actually touches on that a
little bit too as well in her book uh
from what I understand and I've heard
her speak to it as well. But that is
just the reality. Those two things could
be true. You could think someone is more
than qualified and able to do the job
because they're qualified not just
because of the way they look, but then
also the other side because of the way
they look. You're like, "Oh my gosh, is
the country ready for this?" It's not
don't forget as you know but as you know
in 2016 in 2016 in 2016 we had Hillary
Clinton so it's not it's not un it's not
um you know it's not out of the norm for
me to have thought that.
Yeah, but I mean I suppose that's the
point, isn't it? that so many people
around the world who are so distressed
about Donald Trump coming to power again
and all that you you large you as
Democrats which you were of course at
the time prominent one that you were
warning the world about Donald Trump
just run anyone the actual identity
stuff if you think it's holding your
back you back the thing to do was to
have the open contest was to persuade
Joe Biden to drop out earlier was to do
something do something and He never did
anything.
>> Well, first of all, it the you know, I
was not on the campaign. I was the
spokesperson for the president of the
United States. So, but I will say this
in the loss of 2024, I agree with you.
We all we all should take
accountability. Not, you know, not just
the Democratic leadership. All of us
should take some accountability and I do
as well in what happened. I believe in
the time it this the summer of 2024 the
way Democrats behaved actually hurt us
actually did hurt us and remember we had
a primary 14 million people came out
they voted for Biden and Harris 14
million people that's not nothing there
was a process that went through and a
decision was made and I think that uh
the decision by the Democratic party was
made and I think that did hurt us and
you have to be hopeful in the moment
that we're in. And she ran a fantastic
campaign. She just did. But there are
many reasons why it didn't work out.
>> Isn't it Isn't it in a sense, isn't it
obvious why you had a a a presidential
candidate who all the polls said was
going to lose and he and he didn't get
out at the right time. And then when he
did get out, to be kind to her, it
didn't leave her enough time to run a
really good campaign. But the party
could have intervened earlier, couldn't
it? Or or could it not? Was it just
impossible? You were there on the
inside.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, just a couple
things. There was an incumbency issue. I
mean, you saw that with other G7, G10
countries. There was an incumbency
issue. COVID, the economy. So, there was
there was an incumbency issue and we saw
that across the world and the economy
even though it was improving, people
weren't feeling it. And so, it's not
just the person, it's the party. It's
the party that has the power. So there
was that that existed in 2023. And I
always like to take people back to 2023
when the when President Joe Biden made
the decision. It was a different time.
Party leadership was encouraging to him
to to run because of how co um pardon me
because of the midterms and how the
midterms turned out. It wasn't a red
wave. It wasn't as bad as we thought. It
was a historic midterm for an incumbent
first midterm for a for a president. And
so that was part of it. He was the only
person to have beaten Donald Trump. He
objectively had a good couple of years
of his presidency. And so those were the
decisions that went in. Again, party
leadership were encouraging him to run.
And so that's why that decision was
made. Joe Biden is going to write his
book. He will have his he will tell his
story. I can't wait to read it. And he
will lay out what his thought process
is. But we can't forget the facts that
existed during that time in making that
decision.
>> Final thought from you, Karine. Who
would you?
>> And thank you for saying and thank you
for Widow.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was going to say
thank you for saying my name prep like
so. Well, Karen, thank you so much. Not
many people do that. So, I appreciate
that.
>> Well, well, we do our best. We don't
always get it right. I have to say we're
equally getting it very wrong. But
>> I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go to your
question. Justin's apologies.
>> Yeah. Just a final just a final thought.
Um people keep asking us who's going to
run, who who should win, who's going to
run, who what what's your thought about
name names.
>> So, here's the thing, Justin. I don't
want to talk about 2028. Not with you,
just in general, because we got to get
out of 2025. We got to get out of 2026.
We have a president who is already right
now in 2025 is saying that he wants his
justice department to monitor elections
that are happening just this year. We
have a president who is essentially
saying he's going to cheat uh in 2026
with the federal races that are
occurring.
>> 26 will be a fair election
next year. Are they going to be free and
fair? I I don't know because he's being
very One thing that we have learned
about the Trump administration is when
they say something, believe them. And
just last week, we had Steve Bannon.
Steve Bannon say, "Hey, we're going to
we're preparing for a third term of
Trump." I mean, you saw what he did with
the East Wing just last last week,
demolishing it. That doesn't seem like
somebody who's ready to leave. He's
going to build a ballroom. Who's he's
going to name it after himself? You
know, and so we have real issues
happening right now that if we don't get
on top of it. If we don't get on top of
it, things are going to run away from us
or be stolen or be taken from us and we
didn't prepare for it. So that is that
is my genuine fear. Not just me. Many
other people have this fear.
>> Karen Jean-Pierre, been a real pleasure
to talk to you. Thank you very much for
sparing us the time.
>> Thanks Justin. appreciate it anytime.
>> That's it for now. If you want to hear
other episodes of Americas, they are all
available wherever you get your
podcasts. For now, though, bye-bye.
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