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Why did you connect with California? I
mean, you could have gone to an airport
and handpicked anywhere in the world and
started to some degree again, but you
chose to come here.
For me, honestly, I think like so many
of my close friends are here,
people from London who've moved here for
work and stuff like that. It's like I'd
say since I left home I have I've never
really had the place that feels like oh
that's that's my home. I'd say my house
in London is the most homely
um that I feel anywhere. Um just cuz
I've been there the longest. I've been
there for like 6 years now
with like all the touring and stuff that
we did in the band. I remember there was
one point where we'd been away for so
long that I came home to my house in
England
and I was home for about 5 days and I
walked in the door and I sat down and I
was like
I I don't know what to do like when I'm
home at all. I'd been away for so long.
I didn't you know I hadn't seen my
friends for so long. I was I didn't know
who was around. I was kind of like who
do I
what is this strange reality? Yeah. So
there was a point, I guess, where I
realized I was more comfortable being on
the road than
What did you do after 5 days? Did you
hear back off again?
Yeah. And I was like happy to to go, you
know.
I think it's actually understandable. I
think there's something about that kind
of gypsy lifestyle which in particular
the arts that make travel music and such
and the idea of having sort of a a
desire to be gypsy just but by by your
very nature they attracted one another
to some degree. I mean do were you
always a little bit kind of adventurous
as a kid? Were you looking further a
field even when you were growing? Um, I
don't know if I was really. I I had
never been to London before I moved
there, which is crazy to me to think
about it now.
That is crazy.
You know, it's not that far away from
where I grew up. It's like a 3-hour
drive, but London was like where
the rich kids went shopping on the
weekend, like with their with their mom
or something, you know? But also
everything about it felt felt like it
was like this is a new challenge and if
it takes me to London then the whole
thing seemed to me to just be a new
challenge. It was crazy watching it kind
of from a distance and
watching what you and your friends were
kind of going through and and the whole
thing I mean I suppose with the benefit
of some of some wisdom and some age now
looking back on it you must even have a
slightly different perspective than when
it first ended in 2015. It's been 4
years and just kind of thinking what
happened.
Yeah, it's pretty cra it's pretty crazy
now cuz there'll be times where people
will remind me of stuff that happened
that I forgot about
and you like relive it all over again
and you're kind of like, "Oh, yeah, that
was cool. That was cool, too." You know,
the first two years you don't even feel
like you're working at all cuz you're
just so happy to not be going to school
and it it's like, "Oh, I get to do this.
Great. Okay. Um, and you kind of go from
also like, you know, when you're a kid
and you like you see a t-shirt that you
want and you like save up the exact
amount.
Yeah.
But you'd have to account for like the
postage and packaging. So, you'd
actually have to like save up for this
amount. You know, you're kind of like
doing this and then you move to London
and you work doing stuff that's fun and
you're like, can I buy this t-shirt? And
someone's like, uh, yeah, if you want.
You're like, okay.
And that kind of feels like what life is
like.
Yeah. Then it just goes from t-shirt to
to flat, from flat to house to if you
know, you're lucky enough to to to have
that kind of success. I mean, I'm
interested to know two memories and
we're not going to stick around here for
long cuz there's so much more to talk
about. But while we're here, what was
now you've been away from that
experience, what's the the strongest
prevailing memory you have before One
Direction started? Like what can what's
the sharpest most vivid memory you have
in your mind before your life was tipped
upside down? Yeah. Before everything
changed cuz it was so sudden. I mean it
was over the course of what 10 weeks and
all of a sudden that's it. You're not
you're not going home again.
Yeah. I mean probably like a birthday
meal I had with some f I used to live
next to Chinese restaurant. Um and it
was like my favorite restaurant.
So I used to come home from school every
day. I'd get up to my bedroom, like open
the window and stick my head out.
Smell it.
Woo! You know, and uh that was like
where I went for my birthday meals. But
I'd say I'd say probably the the biggest
stuff would probably be there was a
river. house called the River Dane where
you know everyone would go down in the
summer and you'd buy like those little
disposable barbecues. You used to take
and someone would be in charge of like
buying sausages and someone would have
to buy the drinks
floor barbecues to put on.
Yeah. And you like put them on the floor
and then you try and squeeze like
somehow 12 sausages onto this like tiny
thing.
Um Okay. What's the one prevailing
memory you have today of that? Was it
four years?
Five.
Five years.
Yeah.
What's the one What's one that really
jumps out?
One of my favorite memories.
I'll give you two. The first one was
when we'd just been formed as a band.
There was like a picture of us that had
been taken from when we were at the
show. Like someone's mom had taken it.
And it was like the first picture of us
is the five of us. and we were staying
at my stepdad's house. We were like
living in this little bungalow, all of
us together to like practice and we were
just like singing songs and basically
just had a sleepover for like 4 days and
everyone drove down and there's a tiny
little uh like news agents down the
street and we'd heard this picture was
being put in the paper. So we were like,
"Oh, we're going to be in the paper."
Like that's crazy. So, the five of us
like w like left this little bungalow
and walked down to the news agents and
got the paper and then came back and had
breakfast and we're all just like
sitting staring at the paper and like
passing around the paper and we're like,
"Let me see it again. Let me see it
again."
And uh I don't know. I guess just cuz we
had we just didn't know what was going
to happen.
It's a timeless image. That's a timeless
image.
We were so happy about it. that first
real piece of like recognition when you
when you realize that it's not it's not
a controlled environment anymore. Like
people that you don't know down the
street can actually take a look at you
or hear you is
that's still without a doubt a
life-changing moment for every artist I
respect.
Yeah, cuz it only happens one time, too.
Oh, after that everything kind of
changes.
Yeah, cuz we were we were watching X
Factor at my family. We were at my
cousin's house the day that my audition
went on air
and you know we watched it and we're
like, "Oh my god, that's crazy." And
then we're driving home and we go to a
petrol station to stop off and fill up
and I'm in the petrol station and this
guy goes, "Were you just on X Factor?"
And I was like,
"Yes, I was."
Um, but yeah, I'd say that. And then the
other one, I guess once the band had
really started was we were in Sweden
recording What Makes You Beautiful in
the studio,
someone came up into the room and was
like, "There's two girls outside."
And we were like, "Why?"
And they're like, "They're they're like
looking for you." And we were all just
like, "But we're in Sweden."
You know, so that was like another
same. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean,
that was kind of thing like, "Oh my god,
that's so crazy." Like, "We're in
Sweden. How how you know, fast forward
to the end of it and you are out here a
few months afterwards and like that
decompression leading into the writing
of the first album, right? getting into
your self-titled album. That idea of um
having some independence for the first
time really to kind of do whatever you
want. How'd that feel?
Uh
pretty amazing actually. I didn't really
have a plan for like when I wanted to
make a record. I knew I wanted to start
writing some point. Um and that's kind
of why I came out here and I started
with Kid Oone.
So Sweet Creature was the first song we
did. That was like in my first writing
sessions when I kind of started like
because up up until that point I'd done
a lot of sessions with different people
and
I tried to write with as many different
people as possible just to feel like
just to like learn. I just wanted to
learn. And it was like the best way I've
ever heard songwriting described is like
it's kind of like surfing in that you
can practice getting up on the board as
much as you want and sometimes the wave
just doesn't come or the wave comes but
you haven't practiced getting up on the
board enough. Every now and again you've
practiced enough and the wave comes and
that's when
you write that song.
That's when that's when it comes
through. That's when the music
everything's in the right place. So, I
kind of always wanted to be prepared to
stand up on the board whenever the wave
came. Do you surf?
Not enough. I wish I surfed more. I
actually The waves out here are really
in really intense. And I think the last
time I surfed was here and I got
absolutely beaten up. I kept like
flipping. It
was terrible.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's a good look
until you get in the water and you
realize that you're a little out of your
depth, literally. Um, how important was
friendship to you when you started out
as well? because you were trying out
with, like you say, you were trying lots
of different songwriters, but I felt
like when the album finally came out,
you'd found a tight group of friends who
were more than just collaborators. I'd
say to finish the the thought when I'd
been writing in the band, it was kind of
like if I'd ever written stuff that that
was just with a friend or something, it
was kind of like, well, I'm not going to
release any music, but what would it
sound like if I was to write a song that
was for me?
Was that a contractual thing or was it
just a loyalty to the band thing?
Just didn't really want to.
Yeah. and um
definitely didn't have time to.
Yeah. Right.
But I knew that like maybe one day I'd
want to do it, but I wasn't like I can't
wait to get out of this thing so I can
go make my own record.
Yeah.
You know.
So, did the end of it creep up on you?
A little bit. Well, I wouldn't say crept
up. I guess the last year of it, we all
kind of knew we were going to stop at
the end of that year.
So, how do you know? I mean, you know,
it's it's this juggernaut. It's just
non-stop.
Well, we would have like we'd sit down
and have conversations about like
everyone good, everyone wants to keep
going and that kind of thing. And
there was a part of me where
I felt like all of the decisions I'd
made as an adult that affected
my life and what I had to what I was
doing with my life had been made as a
group. And I think there was a part of
me that felt like I wanted to make some
decisions for myself where it was like
you never really had to make the
decision because I could I could put my
hat in the ring but still be like oh
well majority rules and I got outvoted.
I felt like I need to make some
decisions that
just affect me. you know, Zayn already
did that and he bounced out mid tour and
I I think it was pretty amazing you guys
saw that tour through for fans. I think
it was probably a wobbly 24 hours for
people where they thought, well, that's
going to start something.
But looking back on it now, like how
challenging was that to complete that
tour and to see that through and and
how, you know, how impactful was that
decision for him to to not see see it
through to the end? Yeah, I mean it was
uh I mean it was it was hard, you know.
Part of it was it was kind of like we
were sad obviously that someone had
left, but also sad that he was so he was
not enjoying it so much that he had to
leave because I think at the time too
the tour and everything was going so
well and we were everyone had kind of
got to this place where everyone was
kind of living in a way where
they I think felt pretty good while
like enjoy Yeah, it felt like everyone
was kind of enjoying it and um yeah, I'd
say a big part of it was was us kind of
being like, "Wow, we didn't realize he
wasn't enjoying it that much." You know,
you know, obviously there was a big
there was big moments for us where we
were like, "What are we doing?" You
know, cuz we were about to start
recording a new album and stuff and it
was like,
"Are we just are we recording this
without him?" But I'd say in the moment,
I guess the the four of us became
closer.
Um cuz we were like, "Okay, this is a
hurdle that we weren't expecting." And I
think you deal with this in many
different places when when you're work
with like traveling and touring and it's
a demanding thing and not everyone likes
doing it, but it's kind of like if
someone's not enjoying it, you'd rather
they
don't do it. That's why contracts are
strange to me. Like I understand there's
a desire to do them when there's a lot
of money involved and in particular when
there's there are certain businesses
that that really work, but in the arts
and things that are creative, like I
never understand keeping people against
their will. Like you're not going to get
good work.
I never get that with like the record
deal stuff where it's like
why would you you know like when people
like won't release people from contracts
and stuff. It's like why would you want
why would you want a begrudged employer
like an artist to make stuff for you
when they don't want to make stuff? It
seems like completely counter productive
to me, but I mean,
you know,
I'm also not a businessman. So,
you're doing all right in that
department there. So, you've got some
good instincts. You know, you hire Well,
I don't know if maybe
I'd say my gut is the only thing that I
do trust
in terms of people.
That's really important, right? I mean,
there's only two rules you should really
live by. Instinct and diligence, right?
One gets you into the room. The second
one makes you double check and make sure
you should stay there. I can also tell
because the times where I've ever been
like really really upset by people
Yeah.
is when I'm more upset with myself when
I've got it wrong
cuz I feel like I have a really I'm like
I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of
character
and that's the only time I feel myself
get really upset with stuff like that is
where you're like, "Oh, I trust this
person or you know I feel like
they're a good thing." and then it goes
the other way and you're kind of like I
got that wrong and then I end up like
really bummed out about it for a while.
Yeah. Yeah. That's it's classic hard on
yourself syndrome to be honest with you.
You know, taking other people's [ __ ]
and blaming yourself for it. It's that
it's therapy 101. Therapy 101. Have you
tried that therapy?
I love it.
Uh yeah, I have actually. Yeah,
I love it. Yeah. I think for a really
long time, especially when I started
coming to California,
there was a big thing for me where I
felt like everyone went to therapy.
They do,
right? And I I think for a long time I
was like, I don't need that. You know,
it's very like British way of looking at
it, I think. And then I think there was
a point where I kind of was trying to
work out a lot more stuff about myself
because obviously then I was then it was
just me working on
your own. Yeah.
Um
and I think it kind of comes with when
you're trying to make music you're it's
so naval gazing. You're just like like
the making an album I feel like is the
most selfindulgent
time you you can think of really cuz
you're just like
oh if you didn't have the opportunity to
share it if you didn't actually finish
and share it with us
it would be narcissism of the most epic
order.
Can you imagine you just make like an
album and then you don't release it.
It's therapy I suppose in a weird way
but then we get we get the trade. That's
what we get is we get the trade on it.
We get all that kind of naval gazing as
you put it in and that self-reflection
somehow for forms this magic shape that
we get to apply to our own lives and
then we become narcissistic because we
say well Harry's speaking to me right
so I get to apply to her right but yeah
I think I think with the therapy thing I
just realized I was just getting in my
own way you know it's been a thing where
I've definitely felt it have an impact
on my life and something that I've kind
of introduced some friends to who were
going through stuff and they were very
skeptical about it.
I would assume you're a good friend.
You're a loyal person.
Try to be.
Yeah. So, who who are some of your best
friends? Who are the people that help
you through these times? That are some
of the people that you know really that
you're close to. I'm pretty lucky
actually with with that stuff because
and it's probably why I didn't go to
therapy earlier is because
I have those friends where I'll have the
same conversation that I would have with
a therapist. I was at this talk thing
where Alan Debotton was talking and he
was talking about how like real
friendship is just built on
vulnerability. The second you open up to
someone with like a real thing is when
you actually get to know someone. So I
definitely got if there was someone that
I was friends with and I felt like oh I
want to be like close to them just open
up really kind of straight away. And
doing that has definitely caused me to
become much closer with like
just people just my all of my friends in
general I'd say.
How did you feel about um when you
started started on this on this new
album right on Fine Line? Had your
opinion changed about your self-titled
debut? Were there things that you felt
in the heat of the moment in the process
of of coming out of One Direction and
making a solo record that you would do
differently or that you felt that album
didn't quite achieve?
Um, when I like listen to the first
album now, I can hear all of the places
where I feel like I was playing it safe
cuz I just didn't want to get it wrong.
I just didn't want to get it wrong. So,
you started with a mid-tempo 7 minute
single, bro. I mean, it wasn't that safe
to be fair.
Yeah. Uh, apart from that,
carry on.
But, um, I guess a big part of going
into this album was I spent a lot of
time kind of thinking about the whole
process of you make an album, then you
put it out and you, you know, kind of
release it and then you tour it. and all
of the bits that I didn't enjoy as much,
I kind of went into the second one
feeling like I want to work out how to
make all of this feel really fun.
So that's why you drink margaritas
and do mushrooms.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess I I think it was
kind of moo.
I guess I had this moment where I was
like I would rather not do it than do it
and it not be fun. Making this album was
all about freedom. Yeah, of course.
Sounds it.
I had a big moment of I guess through
the whole making of this record. I was
kind of trying to redefine what success
meant to me for so long, especially in
the band. It was like every album got
bigger and every tour got bigger and it
was like always growing. And I think
when I went to make the first record, it
was kind of freeing cuz I felt like,
well, I don't have to do this anymore.
You're still like, "Well, if the last
band thing was this and then your first
thing,
oh, everyone's lined up to judge.
Everyone is lined up to judge." Like,
you come out with that first album and
it doesn't smash it.
It's like, "Oh, well, I guess out of the
band, it's a nogo." Right.
Right.
And so for me, when that album came out,
I felt you already were kind of
redefining success in your own terms
because you went and connected with your
audience. a thought to me at least like
in a very real way like he went back to
to to trying to really connect with
people. You can't connect in a baseball
stadium,
right?
That was a thing that I'd always said I
wanted to do when we kind of
started and when we started doing the
music it was like
kind of said to my manager like the
first tour that I do I want it to be
really small and then I guess with with
this one it was like I just wanted to
have fun. I just wanted to have so much
fun.
That's what success is. That's where you
landed on the redefinition of success.
Yeah. And one of my friends kind of
said, "If you're happy doing what you're
doing, then nobody can tell you you're
not successful."
I mean, it's so obvious, but it's also
the kind of thing where probably four
years ago, if someone had said that to
me, I'd be like, "Okay,
cuz you were too busy making everybody
else happy." And also, I guess when I
was in the band, there was a big thing
of cuz we would make the last three
records we made on the road and
I had friends who are musicians who I
knew would like they would tour and then
they would take 6 months off to go make
a Yeah. into a process.
And I used to be like, "Oh my god,
you can do that."
Well, so you're just like you're just
making that's it.
You that's all you're doing.
You're in room6067. You're just making
at the Marriott in Hong Kong surrounded
by
four mattresses and one over the top.
Yeah, exactly.
Um on the last two tours as well, we
bought this like old surveillance van
and converted it into a studio so it
would follow the tour around. So like at
the venue, you'd go into this tiny
little surveillance van that had no air
conditioning.
What you in One Direction would go in
the back, we'd recorded songs in the
back of a van on the road.
So we had
That's the bossiest [ __ ] Yeah. See,
people are walking past the van have got
no idea.
Well, it'd be like in the venue.
In the venue, right? Okay.
Um, it's crazy.
It's fun to record it like that. It's
just a totally different process.
The album starts with golden, which is
like you said before that vulnerability
is the way to great friendship, and I
feel like that song establishes that. I
mean, there's a lot of like, I know
you're scared, but man, I'm just going
to tell you the truth.
I feel like that's what that song is
about. It's kind of it sets the stall
out for the album, too. It's a very
personal album. Golden we wrote on day
two of being in Shangrila. That was kind
of like an immediately as soon as we'd
done it, it was like, "Oh, this is this
is track one."
You knew it. I love that feeling. It's
one of the best parts of making a record
is making a track list as you go.
Cuz I always end up with track one and
the last track and then you're like,
"Okay, let's see what
So you knew Fine Line would be the last
track."
Yeah. As soon as we do,
you know, it was the album title as
well.
No.
It's such a powerful piece of music. We
can skip to the end if you want. That's
like that is one of my favorite songs of
the year. I mean that's just that's a
stunner, man. Um Golden came really
early and then I used to drive from here
to the studio and listen to it and it's
kind of like as soon as we had it,
Golden was like the perfect BCH song.
Magic,
you know? It's like driving down the
coast. It was just that is what the song
is for. Like it feels so Malibu to me
that song. I heard that the first person
you played the full album to was Liam
Gallagher. Is that true? One of the
first people.
Uh yeah, I guess by accident, I guess.
So, what happened?
Well, he was in uh we were working in a
studio in London and he was in
we were kind of trying to finish up
and he was in the studio next door. He
came in at I can't remember how it
happened, but he kind of just ended up
Yeah, it was the first time he kind of
just ended up in there listening,
which was crazy. You know, I was a
massive Oasis fan growing up. And then
he invited us all over to go listen to
his record and we listened and we all
like had fish and chips and talked and
stuff and he's really he's cool.
I'd imagine Watermelon Sugar would have
been a standout for him. I don't know
why. Just kind of feels like that's his
vibe. That was I don't even know if we
Oh, yeah. Maybe we played in that. But
none of the none of that stuff was
finished. I don't think that had horns
on it yet.
Right.
Lights up I don't think was written.
Lights up, Adore You, Treat People, and
uh yeah, those three I think were all
hadn't been done yet. They were all like
the last week basically. Watermelon
Sugar, which um at this point is out and
you performed on SNL. Um and everyone's
kind of figured out what it's about. Uh
the joys of, you know, mutually
appreciated oral pleasure.
Um
is that what it's about?
Is it?
I don't know.
That's what everyone's saying.
Oh,
always good to leave it open to
interpretation.
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Um but it's something that just seems to
kind of followed you around. on that
idea of you not just being a sex symbol,
but that a lot of your music is inspired
by this.
It's uncomfortable.
Yeah, I reckon. But I actually wanted to
ask you a genuinely serious question
about that because people throw it
around like it's fod, but it is actually
awkward, right? Like how do you feel
sometimes when people seem very focused
on you in that light?
In all honesty, I'd say I try and think
about it as little as possible because
it's a very strange dynamic thing.
Um, it's also like a weird thing to
think of about yourself. Totally. Like,
um,
I guess the thing with like sex in
general is like it used to feel so much
more taboo for me to even like even like
when we're in the band like the thought
of people thinking that I had sex was
like, "Oh no, that's crazy." Like, "What
if they know?" But it's like,
you know?
Yeah. So come even just like coming into
this record, I I wanted to feel a little
less like guarded with stuff. I wanted
to feel a lot freer and just more joyful
and like honest. And
I think a lot of the time with like when
there's like tabloid stuff for example
of like people breaking up and you know
it's like I think people forget that
there's like a person who's also broken
up with someone
which is sad. like
you get sad when you break up with
someone.
Yeah, it feels to me this album in part
and excuse me if I'm being too personal,
but based on the music, it feels like a
breakup record in in in some respects.
This one particular song like a song
called Cherry, which is
crazy. I mean, cutting right to it, you
know, with some real imagery of um
losing someone to someone else and there
still being that remnant
of uh your relationship moving into a
new space, which is right at the core of
heartbreak. I mean,
that's like one of the most devastating
images if you're lucky enough to get
your heart broken. That's one of the
most devastating images you can go
through. And you're also quite specific,
you know, in terms of it feels to me
like it's quite specific in referencing
your the relationship you've been in.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of like it's a
weird one for me cuz I'm always like,
you know, I don't
like to kind of explain songs or like
kind of explain the meaning behind them
and stuff like that. But I think with
this record, it's so much more open.
Yeah.
That it's like,
but you've told us in the
Yeah.
Like it tells you what it is, you know?
I think a thing that I like about kind
of definitely where this record went,
especially compared to the last one, is
like when I start making an album, I
don't feel like, oh, I'm making an album
that I'm going to put out in December of
next year or it feels like I just start
writing some songs and then so then I
can be as honest as possible. And then
the time when you get to decide if you
think it's too honest is when you're
putting it out. And I never want to like
trim that stuff down. So you never
thought for one second when you listen
back to Cherry later on that we'd be
having a conversation or or other people
would be listening to it trying to
decipher it and how that would make you
feel. You felt you wanted to be true to
it.
I think I wanted to be true to it. I
think the moment that I wrote it, I
wanted to be true to the moment that I
wrote it and how I was feeling then. And
the thing with the
How are you feeling then?
Not great.
the but I think also in the moment I
felt I felt like I was realizing
some stuff about it was all part of like
being more open and
you know not being like I don't care.
It's like no like you get petty when you
know when it's when something's not
going the way that you want. Like you
get petty with that stuff. And I think
there's something with Cherry where it's
like it's so pathetic kind of in a way.
The night that
I wrote it, we'd been writing for a few
weeks and
everyone had uh left the studio. It was
me, uh Tyler, and Sammy, who's our
engineer. And we were kind of sitting
around talking at like
2:00 a.m. maybe. And I was saying that I
was feeling a lot of pressure because
the last record wasn't like a radio
record.
I felt like a lot of pressure to be
making these like big songs.
And I was like, I feel like it this
record has to be really big. So I feel
like I need to make certain songs.
You know, I have all these ideas about
records that I want to make. And I want
to make this record in 5 years. I want
to make this record in 10 years and I
want to make like just these ideas for
records that I want to make. And we had
this conversation and Tyler just said to
me,
"You just have to make the record that
you want to make right now. That's it.
There's no like, let me make sure this
one's a commercial success so that I can
make what I want later down the road."
Um, you just have to make the record
that you want to make right now.
He's right.
So then we stayed up and wrote Cherry
that night.
So
how' you So you felt bad when you wrote
it. How did you feel when you finished
it?
So good. Like I loved it so much. It
Who's this? Who's speaking at the end?
What's the vocal at the end that cuts?
That was my ex-girlfriend.
Yeah. So that's interesting. And I think
it's super cool that you left that in
obviously from a sort of imagery point
of view cuz I love all that stuff. I
love hearing things that revolve around
music and aren't necessarily just tied
to a structure.
But the decision to keep, you know, your
ex-girlfriend speaking at the end of the
song is like so blunt and so straight up
like what the was going through your
mind. Like anyone else who's just broken
up with someone right now is like not on
a your wildest day would I do that?
Yeah, I know. Uh I don't know. I think
it was like cuz it got added in later on
and it felt so part of the song. It just
felt like it needed it. We're friends
and stuff, so I asked her if it was okay
and she was okay with it.
What did she think of the song?
Um, I think she liked it. Come on, man.
It's written about it, right? You got to
go, you got to love that at the end of
the day, man. I mean, um, there's a song
called Falling on the Record, which the
first time I heard it was like everyone
was just flawed and it's a real
standout. It's going to become something
I think that people will carry with them
irrespective of the context of the
album. They'll zero in on that song as
well in its own way. And um Tom was
telling me that that that was that came
super fast.
Mhm.
I was going out for dinner, I think, and
I was getting picked up from Tom's
house. So, he came to pick me up and I
was showering and he was like playing on
the piano and as I came out of the
shower, he was playing like the d.
I went and stood next to him at the
piano just in a towel and we just kind
of wrote the whole thing. So it was
really
How long? How long did it take?
I'd say falling maybe took like
probably 20 minutes.
I mean that's 20 minutes in a towel.
That's real friendship.
Yeah, that's
Yeah, right.
3 days.
Okay, we finished it. Please go put
some put some pants on us.
That's one of those moments, right,
where the surfing the surfing analogy
where
the wave and the practice
all comes together.
Where do you think they came from? The
subject matter if it came so quick.
Um
what do you think you were saying in
that song? I'm listening back to it now.
I think it was like for me what I hadn't
really experienced before was during the
making of this record, the times when I
felt good and I felt happy were like the
happiest I've ever felt in my life. And
the times when I felt sad was like the
lowest I ever felt in my life. And I
think it was kind of
that feeling of when you can feel
yourself kind of falling back into one
of those moments where where you're
there and the chorus says like what am I
now? Am I someone I don't want around?
It was kind of like
Yeah, it's powerful. was super
self-absorbed and self-indulgent in a in
a sort of like self way
kind of I guess it was a big moment
where I was kind of asking myself like
who am I like what am I doing kind of
and there's imagery in there of being
too drunk and wandering hands and all
that stuff that all the all the guilt
points
yeah it's like
I kind of started to feel like threads
of you know where I could see myself
becoming someone that I didn't want to
be
and uh and that is really hard. But I
think that the thing that's nice with
that is you get to write a song about it
and be like, "Okay, next."
You know,
and who helps you at those moments? Does
your mom still play a really important
role, your family? And by the way, you
don't have to be you.
There are people doing all kinds of
things in all walks of life who are
losing their way and need people to
bring them back into line. So,
let's just talk about that relationship
for a second because I know family is a
big thing for you.
My like I'm so lucky with my family.
They've always just been really
supportive and that's kind of it's kind
of all you
can ask for with with like doing this is
obviously
you know sometimes you don't want to go
home and be like I'm miserable right now
cuz you want to be like no I'm fine
don't worry about me
and that happens too but also
have the relationship with my family
where if I need to have that
conversation I Can
What's the best bit of advice your mom's
given you?
The thing with my mom is she's less of
like a she's less of like a sound bite
of advice. She's more she's like the
kindest woman I know, you know? So for
me it's always been like just watching
her how she is with people and and stuff
is like she just I just don't think she
has like a bad bone which is an
incredible thing to grow up around to
have that person like supporting you is
um it's amazing. She's the best. She's
like actually the best. So who do you
miss the most? Who do you wish was still
around?
probably my stepdad.
Stepdad passed away a couple years ago.
Um,
that's tough.
He was pretty great. He was like a
pretty great guy.
Yeah. And what have you learned sort of
going through life now as you're kind of
experiencing loss? Because we all have
to cross that bridge and
yeah,
that's kind of sobering and then that's
when adulthood's really knocking on your
door and you start to really take
advantage of and and rep prioritize
things. and you know coming out the
other end of that really really high
octane visceral childhood that you had
into your 20s
and getting into your second album and
being an independent human being who's
got a strong relationship with your
family like
how have your priorities shifted and
what are the things that that really
come into focus for you now
friendships are probably just the most
important thing to me like the people
I'm really close with are just I'd say
way more important to me than anything
else
I've definitely felt a different in the
conversations that I have with friends.
I guess since you like experience death
more when you're a kid and you lose a
grandparent or something.
Yeah.
And it's really sad but also it's like
oh grandparents are the people who die
first.
That's there's some natural order to
that.
Yeah. And um
I think like the first time you lose
like a friend
is when you really feel like an adult.
You're kind of like, "Wow."
It's because it's one of the first
experiences you have, I think, where you
lose control. Completely lose control.
You know, I think you have those those
moments where, and every single person
does it, who's ever lost a friend,
where,
you know, whether you're close to them
or not, I think everyone has that thing
of like,
I wish I'd just asked one more time if
they were okay, you know? And if there's
any positive thing that could possibly
come out of that, it's that
now the conversations that I have with
friends about that stuff is is way
different in terms of like,
you know, you ask a friend if they're
okay. And it's like, yeah, yeah, I'm
good. And you're like, I'm like more
prepared to have that like, no, but you
know,
give me the roster.
You're actually okay.
Give me the roster. you know, and that's
like their conversations that I have
with my friends now.
And you're equally vulnerable in your
own way. And you're able to go back.
Absolutely.
And I think that's like a really
important thing. And that obviously,
like I said earlier, is where like real
friendship comes from
and I don't think everyone's lucky
enough to have it. And I don't think it
happens all the time. So so interesting
that you know you came out of this
experience which has left so many people
isolated and fearful and paranoid and
not wanting to connect with human spirit
because they've had non-stop human
spirit surrounding them for years,
right? And you're like so different.
It's like you just kind of called time
on it and then just went searching for
real human experience almost
immediately. You know, you came to
California in the search for people and
for experience and for
Yeah.
and for relationships. I mean the thing
with my relationship with California is
like it's also definitely changed over
the last few years but when I first came
here it was like oh if you get to move
here it means you've made it like you
did good. I mean to be fair.
Yeah but this is my house.
But but uh you know you get this like
it's everywhere you've seen in movies
and you're kind of like oh it's amazing
like you're in the mix and
you get to be here
and I think the more time I spent here I
was like oh no actually if you can come
here and then leave is when you feel
really great. If you're like oh yeah
that's amazing.
See you in two months.
See you in a bit. Yeah. But that just
goes back to what you were saying about
you strike me as being someone who's
just restless.
Yeah. I mean the thing with here is like
I've never felt at home here in LA which
is you know in one sense not great but
at the same time I always feel like I'm
on holiday when I'm here.
Yeah it's fair.
So I really enjoy being here. A lot of
my closest friends are here which is
where I usually feel the best is when I
can see those people. So, as this kind
of as this conversation comes to a
natural end, as the sun goes down on on
our on our time on our time together, um
what is London to you then if if that's
the closest thing to home?
Um
London's like just where I'll want to be
at some point. And it's a weird one
because after traveling so much, I don't
think I don't look at the future as like
I'm going to live in this one place and
then I'll never move anywhere. I think
it's just about like being happy. I just
want to be happy. And if
And are you?
If I feel pretty good right now. Yeah.
You had fun making this album?
Uh yeah, so much fun.
What's the most fun memory of making
this album? I'd say I'd say probably my
favorite memory from from making this
one of at least was the day we wrote
Golden.
We stopped and went to have dinner and
we're all sat in the kitchen at
Shangrila
and we kind of just played it like on
one guitar and everyone kind of singing
it around the the table like and
it just felt really good. like it felt
so much more joyous than last time. And
I I think that makes sense because like
you said, the first single was a seven
minute piano ballad. So like it would
have been weird to come out being really
joyous.
But
you keep going.
Oh yeah,
still speeding.
Yeah, keep going.
Okay, great. Um, and and I think part of
the thing with like the mushrooms thing
for me is that I never do anything when
I'm working.
Mhm.
And
I don't even drink when I'm walking. If
I'm touring or anything, I don't drink
really at all.
And when I was in the band,
it was like to me it felt like it was so
much bigger than any of us.
Yeah. that I I kind of felt like I'm not
going to be the one who it up.
So I was like now is the time in my life
when you probably go out and experiment
and do this and you take this and you do
that
cuz it's on your shoulders
and that's what you do with your
friends. And I was like I'm not going to
be the guy who messes it up. So I was
like I'm not going to do any of that
stuff.
making this record felt like I just felt
so much like so much more joyous and I
was with my friends and we were in
Malibu and it was like yeah I felt so
safe.
It was like I want to take some
mushrooms. I'm going to take some like
now's the time to have fun. Like we're
in Malibu
24.
I'm also in music. I'm not like, do you
know? It's like, you know, it's like I'm
You wouldn't be the first musician to
experiment in that environment.
I'm not like a politician. I don't think
it's that crazy.
I don't think it's that crazy. It's
definitely not crazy. What is the um Do
you enjoy it?
Yeah. I think my thing with with drugs
is like if you're taking anything to
escape or to try and hide from stuff,
then you shouldn't even drink. And if
you're taking anything to like have fun
and be creative, then great. And
I was with my friends and making an
album, you obviously get so in your head
and you get so like self-conscious about
everything and you hit these bumps in
the road where you're kind of thinking,
is this good enough? And is it this
enough? Is it that enough?
There's like an afterflow of some of
that stuff where sometimes you take
something and then for 10 days after
you're like,
don't worry about it. Everything's going
to be fine.
Like what it it's like kind of stress
relieving in a sense. And
and that's where you're at now, I guess,
in your life as
as you redefined success and you had fun
making this album is that you're just
trying to worry less.
I think so. Yeah, I think that that's
like been a big part of the this whole
thing for me is like I'm just trying to
go through life being a little less
worried about stuff. Definitely with
like working cuz ultimately
it'll be okay.
It's like if you don't hit the top of
the chart, your life doesn't change.
Like I think realizing that it's like if
that was what I was aiming at and then
it didn't happen then I'd feel so much
worse. But redefining it for me has been
amazing to be like oh but I'm that's not
the game I'm playing.
You did it.
There's a freedom with that. And
you know you don't get to go out on
arena tours with Jenny Lewis if you're
trying to play the game. You know
she's so sick.
She's the best. You don't take Casey
Musgraves out before she won the Grammy
if you're trying to like these are bold
moves. It's obvious how talented Casey
and Jenny are, but you would be making a
far more methodical chart based
decision, you know, taking someone else
out that would
fill a different kind of void, you know
what I mean? In the night, whereas it
just strikes me that you're making
decisions based on what's making you
happy.
Especially with that stuff, cuz Casey, I
just love her. her coming on tour was I
was more thinking of like who do I want
to watch every night for like 30 shows.
Yeah.
You know,
and you were so dialed in. The timing
was unbelievable because that album is
so special
and then eventually it's like the whole
world.
She was booked before the album came
out,
which is nuts cuz I just think she's so
good. Unbelievable.
You just want to watch people who are
inspiring and you just want to be around
like good stuff. I'm just a massive fan
of her. So when she came out, it was
really cool for me that she was coming.
And then obviously the new album came
out and it was like this is amazing, you
know? Same with I mean Leon came out
last time and
you got KP coming out in the UK.
She's coming out this time.
Jenny Lewis coming out in the US. It's
all dialed in, man. And um this album is
really it's a it's an amazing listen
from beginning to end. Covers a lot of
different ground. really revealing and
in in a really beautifully written some
amazing lyrics in there that really kind
of I haven't heard people put in into
context before songs like falling and
you know we talked about cherry and fine
line the more mellow moments but also
you know even talking about you know the
the canyon song where you know you're
just putting into into you know the idea
of reflecting and reminiscing on a time
when it was simple and just really great
man from beginning to end.
Thank you.
Um it's been good to connect and talk to
you for the first time. Appreciate it.
It was fun. What are you going to do for
for the for the Christmas break? I mean,
you don't start in earnest till next
year, right?
I'll be doing something.
Sure. Probably. Uh Christmas, I go home.
I go to my mom's.
Yeah.
Are you ready for next year, though? I
mean, do you feel charged up about the
touring and everything else?
I'm I'm really excited about it. I think
it's going to be it. It's my favorite
part. Um, really even more than I mean
I've completely fallen in love with
being in the studio now because of like
the freedom that comes with it. And I
think also now I'm kind of
learning a different way of doing it. I
think I'd get like chunks in a studio.
I'd book like a studio for 2 months and
then I'd go and I'd be in there every
day cuz I felt like I'd kind of be like,
well, we've booked it so we have to be
in there. And I think at some point
you've written everything that you have
to write in the moment
and you realize you're not actually
living cuz you've just been in the
studio for 3 months. So I'm kind of
working out still the balance of like
next time maybe I'll go in the studio
for a couple weeks at a time while
continuing to just kind of live. Are you
going to act again? Um,
yeah.
Anything on the horizon?
I'd like to. I think for me it's like
with the acting thing, like I never
wanted to do it as like just doing it to
like take a job.
There was something about like the
Dunkup thing where when I heard about
it, I was like, I want to be involved in
that so bad. I just remember the way
that it kind of hit me and where I was
excited to watch it like whether I was
in it or not. I was like, I can't wait
to see that.
You know, if you if you get to make
stuff that you're passionate about and
you get to make something that makes you
happy,
then you're happy and no one can call
you unsuccessful, which is great. That's
the redefinition of success, my man.
Thanks for your time, bro. Thank you.
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