[English]
                                            
                            The wrongs which we seek to condemn and
                        
                        
                                            
                            punish
                        
                        
                                            
                            have been so calculated,
                        
                        
                                            
                            so malignant and so devastating
                        
                        
                                            
                            that civilization cannot tolerate their
                        
                        
                                            
                            being ignored
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> because it cannot survive.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They're being repeated.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> This appalling program of
                        
                        
                                            
                            experimentation
                        
                        
                                            
                            by Nazi doctors on live human beings.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            I use the word doctor kind of in
                        
                        
                                            
                            inverted commas because these people
                        
                        
                                            
                            aren't curing people. They're killing
                        
                        
                                            
                            people.
                        
                        
                                            
                            When we
                        
                        
                                            
                            help
                        
                        
                                            
                            the hair
                        
                        
                                            
                            foreign.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Applause]
                        
                        
                                            
                            Jews were not allowed to walk on the
                        
                        
                                            
                            pavements. They had to walk in the
                        
                        
                                            
                            gutters. Jews were not allowed to
                        
                        
                                            
                            practice their professions. My father
                        
                        
                                            
                            couldn't go to work anymore. At first,
                        
                        
                                            
                            we had to wear an armband, a white
                        
                        
                                            
                            armband with a blue star of David on it.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They later changed it to a yellow star,
                        
                        
                                            
                            which we had to wear. All Jews in Europe
                        
                        
                                            
                            had to wear it. One in the front, one in
                        
                        
                                            
                            the back. If you walked out without it,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you could have been shot.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They put up 10 gallows in the center of
                        
                        
                                            
                            our ghetto and they picked up 10 men
                        
                        
                                            
                            from either from work or from their
                        
                        
                                            
                            homes. And while they gathered hundreds
                        
                        
                                            
                            of people to stand by and watch it, they
                        
                        
                                            
                            hung 10 men together. These gallows were
                        
                        
                                            
                            never dismantled, but every now and
                        
                        
                                            
                            again the procedure was repeated. And we
                        
                        
                                            
                            thought it can't get any worse.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The Nazis passed the Nuremberg laws in
                        
                        
                                            
                            September 1935 and in particular the law
                        
                        
                                            
                            for the protection of German blood and
                        
                        
                                            
                            honor was the law that prohibited or
                        
                        
                                            
                            banned any marriages or sexual relations
                        
                        
                                            
                            between Jews and Aryans.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And of course the point there was to
                        
                        
                                            
                            prevent racial misogenation or racial
                        
                        
                                            
                            mixing.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The measures against Jewish people came
                        
                        
                                            
                            up first slowly but then more dangerous.
                        
                        
                                            
                            People disappeared
                        
                        
                                            
                            and then in 42 we went into hiding.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            We went in hiding from Holland where
                        
                        
                                            
                            I've been born in Vienna and when the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazis came there the population changed
                        
                        
                                            
                            immediately. This was quite quite
                        
                        
                                            
                            shocking and amazing. We had many
                        
                        
                                            
                            non-Jewish friends and they all turned
                        
                        
                                            
                            against us.
                        
                        
                                            
                            For me as a child, something I couldn't
                        
                        
                                            
                            understand at all.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Applause]
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            I remember one incident a shoe maker
                        
                        
                                            
                            that lived not far away from us. They
                        
                        
                                            
                            went into him barely made a living and
                        
                        
                                            
                            stabbed him to death.
                        
                        
                                            
                            95% they used to get drunk after their
                        
                        
                                            
                            meetings. This was our party. And then
                        
                        
                                            
                            they went out just beating up juice.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They used to throw stones in windows,
                        
                        
                                            
                            breaking windows and this kind of thing.
                        
                        
                                            
                            But mainly the people were locked up and
                        
                        
                                            
                            they were in their houses and the their
                        
                        
                                            
                            apartments and everybody didn't go out
                        
                        
                                            
                            at the time when they knew that you're
                        
                        
                                            
                            going to have a meeting.
                        
                        
                                            
                            So this was the kind of a life they went
                        
                        
                                            
                            through day after day.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            There was this concept called racial
                        
                        
                                            
                            hygiene which sounds as basically as
                        
                        
                                            
                            disgusting as it was. It's this idea
                        
                        
                                            
                            that you have a race of of pure people.
                        
                        
                                            
                            With the Nazis, it was meant to be pure
                        
                        
                                            
                            Aryans. That was the word they used for
                        
                        
                                            
                            sort of kind of basically tall white
                        
                        
                                            
                            people. And they didn't want their race,
                        
                        
                                            
                            the Aryan race to be sullied, if you
                        
                        
                                            
                            like, by people from other races. So the
                        
                        
                                            
                            whole idea of different races breeding
                        
                        
                                            
                            with each other was seen as being kind
                        
                        
                                            
                            of, you know, medically totally
                        
                        
                                            
                            objectionable. It was, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            racially unhygienic.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The Nazi regime was concerned to create
                        
                        
                                            
                            a pure national community and in order
                        
                        
                                            
                            to do so it enlisted the help of medical
                        
                        
                                            
                            professionals so doctors, physicians,
                        
                        
                                            
                            psychiatrists also demographers,
                        
                        
                                            
                            population policy experts in order to
                        
                        
                                            
                            create the perfect society that it
                        
                        
                                            
                            wanted to create. So it really harnessed
                        
                        
                                            
                            the skills and the expertise of the
                        
                        
                                            
                            medical profession and drew the medical
                        
                        
                                            
                            experts very closely into the remitt of
                        
                        
                                            
                            the regime.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> You you only had to walk into any
                        
                        
                                            
                            university library in Germany and and go
                        
                        
                                            
                            to the medical section and see journal
                        
                        
                                            
                            after journal, book after book uh about
                        
                        
                                            
                            this whole idea of racial purity,
                        
                        
                                            
                            combating uh hereditary diseases. And so
                        
                        
                                            
                            the medical profession looked at what
                        
                        
                                            
                            Hitler was doing, looked at what the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazis were doing and going, "This is
                        
                        
                                            
                            great. This is exactly where medical
                        
                        
                                            
                            philosophy in Germany is taking us. This
                        
                        
                                            
                            is what we want to happen." You know, in
                        
                        
                                            
                            other countries such as Britain and the
                        
                        
                                            
                            United States, people were far more wary
                        
                        
                                            
                            of this idea of kind of trying to breed
                        
                        
                                            
                            out weakness. They didn't necessarily
                        
                        
                                            
                            think it was that humane because it
                        
                        
                                            
                            really isn't.
                        
                        
                                            
                            In 1933, there wasn't a law to to stop a
                        
                        
                                            
                            kind of racial intermingling, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            and and and sex with people from
                        
                        
                                            
                            different races. Um, you know, the Nazis
                        
                        
                                            
                            did not like this whole idea of mixed
                        
                        
                                            
                            race people and it took the blood
                        
                        
                                            
                            protection law in September 1935 in
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nuremberg and that does make, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            relationships between kind of black
                        
                        
                                            
                            people and white people, between Jews
                        
                        
                                            
                            and non-Jews completely illegal. um it
                        
                        
                                            
                            would become a criminal act to actually
                        
                        
                                            
                            you know if you were an Aryan uh to go
                        
                        
                                            
                            to bed or marry a Jew. It seems
                        
                        
                                            
                            absolutely insane that you know the kind
                        
                        
                                            
                            of reach that Nazi party and Nazi medics
                        
                        
                                            
                            had on people's private lives. You know
                        
                        
                                            
                            surely you should be allowed to
                        
                        
                                            
                            reproduce with exactly who you want but
                        
                        
                                            
                            no the whole idea is you had to keep
                        
                        
                                            
                            things racially pure and if you have a
                        
                        
                                            
                            mixed race child that's going to be bad
                        
                        
                                            
                            for Germany.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            I don't think that anybody even us in
                        
                        
                                            
                            our wanted to feel like a piece of meat
                        
                        
                                            
                            and we have been reduced in this case to
                        
                        
                                            
                            a mass of breathing living cells.
                        
                        
                                            
                            So much of the detail of the experiment
                        
                        
                                            
                            I still do not remember because the only
                        
                        
                                            
                            way I could cope with it is by blocking
                        
                        
                                            
                            it out. I would let my mind just take
                        
                        
                                            
                            off into other directions.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazi medical experimentation then was a
                        
                        
                                            
                            drastic set of policies in which the
                        
                        
                                            
                            concentration camp prisoners were
                        
                        
                                            
                            experimented on often to the point of
                        
                        
                                            
                            death and if they didn't die during the
                        
                        
                                            
                            experiments they were often killed
                        
                        
                                            
                            subsequently.
                        
                        
                                            
                            This has been something of a taboo
                        
                        
                                            
                            subject. So in terms of questions of
                        
                        
                                            
                            medical ethics and medical research,
                        
                        
                                            
                            such difficult moral questions of
                        
                        
                                            
                            course, but I think that perhaps this
                        
                        
                                            
                            particular episode in a very dark
                        
                        
                                            
                            history of the whole of the Third Reich
                        
                        
                                            
                            is less wellknown and less well
                        
                        
                                            
                            understood,
                        
                        
                                            
                            perhaps reflecting an unwillingness to
                        
                        
                                            
                            come to terms or to address what was
                        
                        
                                            
                            essentially Nazi murderous science.
                        
                        
                                            
                            A friend of mine, they took her in for
                        
                        
                                            
                            surgeries.
                        
                        
                                            
                            She came back in the afternoon
                        
                        
                                            
                            and she was really
                        
                        
                                            
                            I mean we saw that she lost her mind.
                        
                        
                                            
                            She I mean the pain was so terrible
                        
                        
                                            
                            and she was still bleeding you know when
                        
                        
                                            
                            they pushed her out in the hospital
                        
                        
                                            
                            and then she said
                        
                        
                                            
                            they won't do that to me again
                        
                        
                                            
                            and she started running before we knew
                        
                        
                                            
                            it. There she was.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Yeah. She went to the fence.
                        
                        
                                            
                            She couldn't tolerate the pain.
                        
                        
                                            
                            What they did, they took you in and they
                        
                        
                                            
                            inflicted wounds on you and then to see
                        
                        
                                            
                            how it would heal if soldiers were
                        
                        
                                            
                            wounded like that. If they could
                        
                        
                                            
                            if there is a way to
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> one of the other kind of hallmarks of
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazi medicine, if you like, is is not
                        
                        
                                            
                            just involuntary euthanasia and killing
                        
                        
                                            
                            the incurable, life unworthy of life,
                        
                        
                                            
                            getting rid of it. It's also this
                        
                        
                                            
                            appalling program of experimentation
                        
                        
                                            
                            by Nazi doctors on live human beings.
                        
                        
                                            
                            It's no accident in in the SS, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            Hinrich Himmler's kind of elite core of
                        
                        
                                            
                            of of evil. Really, there's no other way
                        
                        
                                            
                            of putting it. The profession that had
                        
                        
                                            
                            the most representation, the SS was the
                        
                        
                                            
                            medical profession. Doctors join the SS
                        
                        
                                            
                            in their droves.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Some of the most well-known of the Nazi
                        
                        
                                            
                            doctors were Yseph Mangala most known at
                        
                        
                                            
                            Avitz. Also Dr. Sigman Rasher who
                        
                        
                                            
                            conducted freezing and high alitude
                        
                        
                                            
                            experiments among other experiments at
                        
                        
                                            
                            DHA.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Klaus Carl Schilling who conducted
                        
                        
                                            
                            malaria experiments at Dah.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Carl Clowberg, a gynecologist at Avitz
                        
                        
                                            
                            who used hundreds of female prisoners to
                        
                        
                                            
                            conduct artificial insemination and mass
                        
                        
                                            
                            sterilization.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And Carl Vinett who was involved in
                        
                        
                                            
                            hormone research and was particularly
                        
                        
                                            
                            interested in experimenting on
                        
                        
                                            
                            homosexual men to see if he could cure
                        
                        
                                            
                            them.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Today there are a lot of people who who
                        
                        
                                            
                            regard, you know, frankly, experiments
                        
                        
                                            
                            on animals, you know, morally
                        
                        
                                            
                            objectionable. Well, how about if you
                        
                        
                                            
                            were kind of experimenting on living
                        
                        
                                            
                            human beings and that is what takes
                        
                        
                                            
                            place in so many concentration and
                        
                        
                                            
                            extermination camps all over the Third
                        
                        
                                            
                            Reich.
                        
                        
                                            
                            One of the things that Rashid does is
                        
                        
                                            
                            that he puts people in in pressure
                        
                        
                                            
                            chambers and he either increases or
                        
                        
                                            
                            decreases the pressure to simulate
                        
                        
                                            
                            different altitudes uh in which you
                        
                        
                                            
                            might not have any oxygen to see what
                        
                        
                                            
                            pilots could cope with. A and there is
                        
                        
                                            
                            footage you can see these poor men
                        
                        
                                            
                            usually in the and they're in agony
                        
                        
                                            
                            because the pressure is either too
                        
                        
                                            
                            little or too much in these chambers and
                        
                        
                                            
                            their their their bodies are screaming
                        
                        
                                            
                            out. They're literally screaming out or
                        
                        
                                            
                            they're put into freezing water and
                        
                        
                                            
                            they're basically made to get
                        
                        
                                            
                            hypothermia. And you know what is this
                        
                        
                                            
                            teaching anybody? If you get into
                        
                        
                                            
                            freezing water, you're going to get very
                        
                        
                                            
                            cold and then you're going to die.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Everybody knew that before Sigman Rash
                        
                        
                                            
                            is doing it in Dow. H how can this be
                        
                        
                                            
                            medically acceptable? What with a
                        
                        
                                            
                            stopwatch? You're just going to murder
                        
                        
                                            
                            someone and that's going to teach you
                        
                        
                                            
                            about what the human body can endure.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Where does that end? You're murdering
                        
                        
                                            
                            someone. And the whole idea, Rasher
                        
                        
                                            
                            would turn around and go, "This person's
                        
                        
                                            
                            not important. This person's unworthy of
                        
                        
                                            
                            life anyway, so we might as well use his
                        
                        
                                            
                            living body to gain some more data for
                        
                        
                                            
                            our wonderful Nazi medical experiments."
                        
                        
                                            
                            And you know, he kills about 300 people
                        
                        
                                            
                            of hypothermia alone. You know, how is
                        
                        
                                            
                            that medically useful? That's just
                        
                        
                                            
                            sadism.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Although we think we know quite a lot
                        
                        
                                            
                            about all the sinister and extreme
                        
                        
                                            
                            policies and brutalities of the Nazi
                        
                        
                                            
                            regime,
                        
                        
                                            
                            perhaps we understand less and know less
                        
                        
                                            
                            really about the extent and the
                        
                        
                                            
                            parameters and the scale of the human
                        
                        
                                            
                            medical experimentation that went on in
                        
                        
                                            
                            the Nazi camps.
                        
                        
                                            
                            We can take a figure of about 15,000,
                        
                        
                                            
                            20% of whom were Jewish and we know that
                        
                        
                                            
                            also a lot of the other experiments were
                        
                        
                                            
                            on the Cintian Roma and on prisoners of
                        
                        
                                            
                            war and other political prisoners.
                        
                        
                                            
                            In terms of the scale of the
                        
                        
                                            
                            experimentation though, if we take into
                        
                        
                                            
                            account large-scale nutritional project
                        
                        
                                            
                            at Mount Housen concentration camp as
                        
                        
                                            
                            well as other anthropological
                        
                        
                                            
                            experiments, the number can go up to an
                        
                        
                                            
                            estimate of around 90,000.
                        
                        
                                            
                            There was a sense that the sinister side
                        
                        
                                            
                            and the brutal side perhaps would never
                        
                        
                                            
                            be discovered.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The doctors and the scientists engaged
                        
                        
                                            
                            in carrying out the research did so with
                        
                        
                                            
                            callousness, very much coldheartedness,
                        
                        
                                            
                            brutality, but also especially with
                        
                        
                                            
                            impunity.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The truth is I witness I witness
                        
                        
                                            
                            hanging. I witness shooting. I witness
                        
                        
                                            
                            terrible beatings. I witness in Bhenwald
                        
                        
                                            
                            where they had a hose with a regulator
                        
                        
                                            
                            and had women out there by the wall
                        
                        
                                            
                            pregnant tried to see how much pressure
                        
                        
                                            
                            it takes to make a hole.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            I saw a pit in a where they made soap
                        
                        
                                            
                            from people.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You throw in people and took the fat and
                        
                        
                                            
                            make soap for the German military,
                        
                        
                                            
                            boiling water,
                        
                        
                                            
                            big pool.
                        
                        
                                            
                            I mean, there's a lot of things. Sure,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you you know, you don't want to talk
                        
                        
                                            
                            about it because it's, you know, I choke
                        
                        
                                            
                            or I start crying or something like
                        
                        
                                            
                            that. And besides, I tell you this is
                        
                        
                                            
                            except people they've been in there,
                        
                        
                                            
                            they saw it and witness this, it's very
                        
                        
                                            
                            hard for people even to imagine that
                        
                        
                                            
                            that this was there that this happened,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you know, taking people and throwing
                        
                        
                                            
                            them in and boiling water making soap
                        
                        
                                            
                            for the German army. a minute. There's
                        
                        
                                            
                            no one in the pictures that you know.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> Mangala in my case never ever talked to
                        
                        
                                            
                            me. He talked about me. He talked at me.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You have to realize Mangala did not
                        
                        
                                            
                            treat us as human beings.
                        
                        
                                            
                            with just his treasured
                        
                        
                                            
                            experiment subjects.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> Now, we shouldn't really even give him
                        
                        
                                            
                            the title doctor because what he did was
                        
                        
                                            
                            so anti-medical and actually the
                        
                        
                                            
                            university that gave him his degree took
                        
                        
                                            
                            away that degree when it discovered what
                        
                        
                                            
                            he had been doing.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> He became very well known on the
                        
                        
                                            
                            arrivals ramp at Ashvitz. So when the
                        
                        
                                            
                            train loads of new prisoners arrived, he
                        
                        
                                            
                            could be seen there in a very callous
                        
                        
                                            
                            and matter-of-act manner directing um
                        
                        
                                            
                            the new arrivals straight to the gas
                        
                        
                                            
                            chambers or to work duties.
                        
                        
                                            
                            We arrived at Awitz and um there was
                        
                        
                                            
                            some Jewish people came up the train. He
                        
                        
                                            
                            said to us whatever we do don't say that
                        
                        
                                            
                            we are sick and we stand in the line and
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangala was sitting there Dr. Mangala
                        
                        
                                            
                            they called them
                        
                        
                                            
                            and u
                        
                        
                                            
                            left right you know older the older
                        
                        
                                            
                            indeed they announced
                        
                        
                                            
                            every uh young woman should take the
                        
                        
                                            
                            baby give the children to the elderly to
                        
                        
                                            
                            the mothers to the elderly people.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Then when we came in the line you know
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangala
                        
                        
                                            
                            he said uh he said on Germany he talked
                        
                        
                                            
                            us if we are healthy we are sick or
                        
                        
                                            
                            something is hurting us. He talked so
                        
                        
                                            
                            nice so soft you know things.
                        
                        
                                            
                            It seems that he sometimes spent time
                        
                        
                                            
                            there in an offduty capacity because he
                        
                        
                                            
                            was interested particularly in twins and
                        
                        
                                            
                            in people with dwarfism. So it seemed
                        
                        
                                            
                            that he would just turn up and sort of
                        
                        
                                            
                            have a look and see if he could pull any
                        
                        
                                            
                            people out of the line who were of
                        
                        
                                            
                            interest to him. Families would be
                        
                        
                                            
                            separated, children would be separated
                        
                        
                                            
                            from their parents and and the loss they
                        
                        
                                            
                            would see of their parents, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            would would be them going off to this
                        
                        
                                            
                            this weird sort of building with a
                        
                        
                                            
                            chimney coming out of it.
                        
                        
                                            
                            What Mangala was also looking out for,
                        
                        
                                            
                            and why he was particularly keen on
                        
                        
                                            
                            being there to receive these new
                        
                        
                                            
                            prisoners, he wanted to find twins. He
                        
                        
                                            
                            was obsessed with twins.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Why was he obsessed with twins? Because
                        
                        
                                            
                            what you can do with twins, if you are
                        
                        
                                            
                            basically an evil Nazi doctor, which is
                        
                        
                                            
                            what Mingala was, is that you can
                        
                        
                                            
                            experiment on one twin and then see, you
                        
                        
                                            
                            know, what goes on with that twin and
                        
                        
                                            
                            compare it to the still healthy twin.
                        
                        
                                            
                            So, you've got to kind of control as as
                        
                        
                                            
                            as medics call it.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> I thought I was the only one.
                        
                        
                                            
                            In fact, it's interesting when in 1985
                        
                        
                                            
                            when we first found out there were other
                        
                        
                                            
                            twins who survived Ashitz, I said to
                        
                        
                                            
                            Renee, I said I thought we were the only
                        
                        
                                            
                            kids who survived. How could there be
                        
                        
                                            
                            anybody else? What do you mean there are
                        
                        
                                            
                            twins?
                        
                        
                                            
                            So, no, I
                        
                        
                                            
                            had no idea that anybody else was having
                        
                        
                                            
                            anything done to them.
                        
                        
                                            
                            We would stand by our bunk beds with our
                        
                        
                                            
                            hands behind our back like little
                        
                        
                                            
                            soldiers for mangalis inspection.
                        
                        
                                            
                            There was two we had three supervisor in
                        
                        
                                            
                            our back block
                        
                        
                                            
                            and one of them would stand at the front
                        
                        
                                            
                            and say mangala is coming
                        
                        
                                            
                            and everybody would just it's like like
                        
                        
                                            
                            some kind of a horror was entering. He
                        
                        
                                            
                            would come very elegantly with his hands
                        
                        
                                            
                            behind his back. He had his stick in his
                        
                        
                                            
                            hand. He would hit it sometime against
                        
                        
                                            
                            his riding boots and start counting. He
                        
                        
                                            
                            always had at least six people with him
                        
                        
                                            
                            many times, as many as eight or 10. Was
                        
                        
                                            
                            a big entourage.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> What Alitz represented to Mangalow was
                        
                        
                                            
                            an absolutely unparalleled opportunity
                        
                        
                                            
                            to experiment on live human beings in a
                        
                        
                                            
                            way that you simply couldn't do outside
                        
                        
                                            
                            a place like Achvitz. You got to
                        
                        
                                            
                            remember that what mangallay symbolizes
                        
                        
                                            
                            is the ultimate embodiment of Nazi
                        
                        
                                            
                            medicine if you like.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Unfortunately, a lot of memories of um
                        
                        
                                            
                            the hospital and um the doctor's office,
                        
                        
                                            
                            it I seem to recall spending a great
                        
                        
                                            
                            deal of time
                        
                        
                                            
                            um there. also being in the hospital
                        
                        
                                            
                            and being very sick.
                        
                        
                                            
                            I know one time when I went to the
                        
                        
                                            
                            doctor's office, they took blood from me
                        
                        
                                            
                            and it was extremely painful because it
                        
                        
                                            
                            was from the left side of my neck.
                        
                        
                                            
                            That's a strange thing to remember.
                        
                        
                                            
                            I also remember having blood taken out
                        
                        
                                            
                            of my finger, but that wasn't quite so
                        
                        
                                            
                            bad.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And
                        
                        
                                            
                            I also remember having to sit um very
                        
                        
                                            
                            still for long periods to be measured
                        
                        
                                            
                            and
                        
                        
                                            
                            or weigh or and x-rays. I I remember
                        
                        
                                            
                            x-rays. X-rays
                        
                        
                                            
                            and injections. I remember injections.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And then I'd be sick because then I I'd
                        
                        
                                            
                            be in this hospital
                        
                        
                                            
                            and I remember having a high fever
                        
                        
                                            
                            because I know they were taking my
                        
                        
                                            
                            temperature. Somebody was
                        
                        
                                            
                            um
                        
                        
                                            
                            I really got to hate doctors.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> I was with other I had to think were
                        
                        
                                            
                            twins. My visits to the um hospital I
                        
                        
                                            
                            don't think were anywhere near as
                        
                        
                                            
                            frequent as Irene's
                        
                        
                                            
                            and I don't remember ever being
                        
                        
                                            
                            invaded into my body. The only thing I
                        
                        
                                            
                            remember them doing to me is measuring.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And I do remember uh the runin the x-ray
                        
                        
                                            
                            I guess it was runken. I remember that
                        
                        
                                            
                            name. They used runin a lot and had to
                        
                        
                                            
                            stand still or sit still for a very long
                        
                        
                                            
                            time for this process to take place. It
                        
                        
                                            
                            was cold wherever you were.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Uh but that that was just about the
                        
                        
                                            
                            experience with the hospital. Very
                        
                        
                                            
                            minimal compared to Irene's.
                        
                        
                                            
                            One of the most horrific experiments the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangala did was to try and change the
                        
                        
                                            
                            color of people's eyes by injecting dye
                        
                        
                                            
                            into their eyes without any anesthetic.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You can imagine the pain on that. Why?
                        
                        
                                            
                            Because he thought that people with blue
                        
                        
                                            
                            eyes were racially more pure than people
                        
                        
                                            
                            who didn't have blue eyes. Well, the
                        
                        
                                            
                            idea that you just inject someone with
                        
                        
                                            
                            blue dye into their eyes and that's
                        
                        
                                            
                            going to kind of make them better is
                        
                        
                                            
                            clearly insane and it has to be seen as
                        
                        
                                            
                            sadism rather than anything, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            medically useful.
                        
                        
                                            
                            What he would also do would carry out
                        
                        
                                            
                            sterilizations, often without anesthetic
                        
                        
                                            
                            because he just wanted to try and see
                        
                        
                                            
                            what was the quickest way of sterilizing
                        
                        
                                            
                            women who were racially impure. If you
                        
                        
                                            
                            could make lots and lots of women
                        
                        
                                            
                            sterile very very quickly, that was
                        
                        
                                            
                            going to be a really good thing for the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazis to do to stop all these people
                        
                        
                                            
                            from reproducing.
                        
                        
                                            
                            We saw the the children in the camps for
                        
                        
                                            
                            mangala used to experime
                        
                        
                                            
                            in in the barracks not very long maybe
                        
                        
                                            
                            four weeks or six weeks I forgot
                        
                        
                                            
                            uh where I used to clean the bar. So
                        
                        
                                            
                            this was visible within the camp, but
                        
                        
                                            
                            again, I don't think a lot of people
                        
                        
                                            
                            took notice of it because everybody
                        
                        
                                            
                            tried to survive. So you didn't worry
                        
                        
                                            
                            about somebody else's problems.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And besides, you couldn't do nothing
                        
                        
                                            
                            about it anyway. You know, you lived on
                        
                        
                                            
                            the dictatorship.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You were just a number, not a not not a
                        
                        
                                            
                            person.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You know, I remember times when that was
                        
                        
                                            
                            a luxury which literally you envy the
                        
                        
                                            
                            people that were dead. You envy them. I
                        
                        
                                            
                            done it many times. Many times.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Cuz he no longer has to go through this
                        
                        
                                            
                            ordeal. He doesn't have to suffer. He's
                        
                        
                                            
                            finished.
                        
                        
                                            
                            So dying was a luxury
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> in a very grim way. You know what
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangala thought he was doing was was
                        
                        
                                            
                            completely correct. And what he has in a
                        
                        
                                            
                            place like Ashvitz is living human
                        
                        
                                            
                            material he can experiment on. Under
                        
                        
                                            
                            normal circumstances, no, you're not
                        
                        
                                            
                            experimenting on living human beings.
                        
                        
                                            
                            But these people are largely Jews.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They're not worthy of life. And so if
                        
                        
                                            
                            you no longer see these beings as human
                        
                        
                                            
                            beings, it becomes very easy for someone
                        
                        
                                            
                            like Mangallay just to think of them as,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you know, like kind of lab rats.
                        
                        
                                            
                            One day I couldn't take anymore the pain
                        
                        
                                            
                            in my mouth. I had a very sore mouth. My
                        
                        
                                            
                            tongue was hanging out. I couldn't even
                        
                        
                                            
                            keep my tongue in my mouth. And there
                        
                        
                                            
                            was uh medical help, so-called medical
                        
                        
                                            
                            help. They said I should if anybody
                        
                        
                                            
                            wants a little treatment or help, but
                        
                        
                                            
                            you took a chance because that could
                        
                        
                                            
                            have mean that you going to the gas
                        
                        
                                            
                            chambers. But I couldn't take it any
                        
                        
                                            
                            longer. I said my mouth is very I have
                        
                        
                                            
                            very much pain. So they took us in
                        
                        
                                            
                            another room
                        
                        
                                            
                            and there was a lady who was a doctor
                        
                        
                                            
                            and she smeared something in my mouth.
                        
                        
                                            
                            As I was in that room there was Dr.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangala.
                        
                        
                                            
                            There were a few ladies on the floor.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They just gave birth. You see they come
                        
                        
                                            
                            to they came to Ashitz just in the
                        
                        
                                            
                            beginning of their pregnancy. Nobody
                        
                        
                                            
                            knew they were pregnant otherwise they
                        
                        
                                            
                            would have put them in the gas chambers.
                        
                        
                                            
                            But as they get they stayed there, the
                        
                        
                                            
                            baby developed and had to be born. So
                        
                        
                                            
                            the ladies were on the floor in that
                        
                        
                                            
                            room and there was about 10 babies on a
                        
                        
                                            
                            wooden bench wrapped in paper crying
                        
                        
                                            
                            and the mothers were were on the floor
                        
                        
                                            
                            all exhausted from giving birth.
                        
                        
                                            
                            I looked at Mangala. He was going to
                        
                        
                                            
                            each baby. Gave a needle for each baby
                        
                        
                                            
                            right in front of my eyes. So help me
                        
                        
                                            
                            God.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And those babies never cried again.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Right there. He killed one after
                        
                        
                                            
                            another.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And the mothers were so exhausted they
                        
                        
                                            
                            were half asleep from giving birth.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And then another thing happened. One
                        
                        
                                            
                            night a woman was very very sick in our
                        
                        
                                            
                            block
                        
                        
                                            
                            some she was in terrible pain and she
                        
                        
                                            
                            had about a 14 year old daughter with
                        
                        
                                            
                            her. So the daughter was running to the
                        
                        
                                            
                            block. Please help my mother help my
                        
                        
                                            
                            mother. So that was at night. So all of
                        
                        
                                            
                            a sudden we heard that meant everybody
                        
                        
                                            
                            got so quiet you could hear a pin
                        
                        
                                            
                            falling on the floor when Mangala walked
                        
                        
                                            
                            in. And he went up to the lady he looked
                        
                        
                                            
                            at her. He gave her a needle.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The woman was quiet forever. I suppose
                        
                        
                                            
                            they took her out. She looked dead and
                        
                        
                                            
                            I'm sure she was there.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> One of the reasons why Mangallay becomes
                        
                        
                                            
                            this really kind of notorious figure is
                        
                        
                                            
                            because he does manage to escape after
                        
                        
                                            
                            the war. You know, when the Russians
                        
                        
                                            
                            come to outfits in January 1945, yes,
                        
                        
                                            
                            they find a load of kind of living
                        
                        
                                            
                            skeletons, if you like, but what they
                        
                        
                                            
                            don't do is find people like Joseph
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangallay because he's got out. He knows
                        
                        
                                            
                            what he's done is wrong. Otherwise, why
                        
                        
                                            
                            would he want to escape?
                        
                        
                                            
                            So, he lives in hiding in Germany until
                        
                        
                                            
                            1949. And then he eventually escapes to
                        
                        
                                            
                            South America where he spends, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            the rest of his days until 1979 when he
                        
                        
                                            
                            drowns, probably has a stroke off a
                        
                        
                                            
                            beach in Brazil. He never faces justice.
                        
                        
                                            
                            What's really chilling about Mangallay
                        
                        
                                            
                            is that throughout the rest of his life,
                        
                        
                                            
                            he always would justify what he had done
                        
                        
                                            
                            in Achvitz. He had always thought he had
                        
                        
                                            
                            done the morally correct thing. And in
                        
                        
                                            
                            fact, he meets his son Rolf in 1977.
                        
                        
                                            
                            This is two years now before Mangala
                        
                        
                                            
                            dies and he's in his late 60s. And Rol
                        
                        
                                            
                            starts asking questions. Look, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            dad, you know, why did you do this in
                        
                        
                                            
                            Avitz? Why did you experiment with
                        
                        
                                            
                            people? Why did you kill people? A and
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangallay would go through to two
                        
                        
                                            
                            different stages. First of all, he would
                        
                        
                                            
                            kind of deny that he had done many of
                        
                        
                                            
                            the things that the people said he had
                        
                        
                                            
                            done. Um, you know, and frankly, there
                        
                        
                                            
                            may have been slightly an element of
                        
                        
                                            
                            truth to that because there was an
                        
                        
                                            
                            enormous amount of mythologizing of what
                        
                        
                                            
                            Mangala did. But when he would admit to
                        
                        
                                            
                            doing some of the things, he said to
                        
                        
                                            
                            Rol, his son, you know, I've done
                        
                        
                                            
                            nothing wrong. I was saving lives and
                        
                        
                                            
                            out of it. I wasn't ending them. and and
                        
                        
                                            
                            he would see his work on the selection
                        
                        
                                            
                            ramps for starters saying to people,
                        
                        
                                            
                            well, you're going to live and you're
                        
                        
                                            
                            going to die. You know, we see that as
                        
                        
                                            
                            sending people to their deaths. Megalith
                        
                        
                                            
                            saw that as sending people to their
                        
                        
                                            
                            continued life because he had this
                        
                        
                                            
                            attitude that everybody there was going
                        
                        
                                            
                            to die anyway. So, in fact, he was, you
                        
                        
                                            
                            know, kind of delaying their deaths. He
                        
                        
                                            
                            was being the nice guy. And he also
                        
                        
                                            
                            would say that the experiments he did
                        
                        
                                            
                            were for the good of humanity that this
                        
                        
                                            
                            was an an essential role of medicine was
                        
                        
                                            
                            to experiment on people. It is totally
                        
                        
                                            
                            possible of course that Mangala deep
                        
                        
                                            
                            down in his you know deep dark heart
                        
                        
                                            
                            knew what he had done was completely
                        
                        
                                            
                            amoral and completely wrong and perhaps
                        
                        
                                            
                            he could never admit it to himself. If
                        
                        
                                            
                            that's the case it showed an enormous
                        
                        
                                            
                            amount of moral cowardice.
                        
                        
                                            
                            4 million people lost their lives at
                        
                        
                                            
                            Awitz.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The 620 barracks housed from 180 to
                        
                        
                                            
                            200,000 inmates.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Fascist builders had designed a singular
                        
                        
                                            
                            architecture
                        
                        
                                            
                            for people condemned to death.
                        
                        
                                            
                            There is no support. There's people just
                        
                        
                                            
                            absolutely full with their own misery
                        
                        
                                            
                            and pain.
                        
                        
                                            
                            There is no support. There is nobody.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You're on your own. You're on your own
                        
                        
                                            
                            with your thoughts and your pain and
                        
                        
                                            
                            your misery. There you're totally on
                        
                        
                                            
                            your own.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            Unbelievable that human beings cultivate
                        
                        
                                            
                            intelligent
                        
                        
                                            
                            human beings can treat other innocent
                        
                        
                                            
                            people like well worse than cattle.
                        
                        
                                            
                            One of the most kind of brutal,
                        
                        
                                            
                            pointless, sadistic uh Nazi experiments
                        
                        
                                            
                            was carried out in Saxonhousen
                        
                        
                                            
                            concentration camp on what was ominously
                        
                        
                                            
                            called the shoe testing track.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Prisoners were made to walk along like
                        
                        
                                            
                            25 30 miles a day, endlessly testing
                        
                        
                                            
                            various shoes until the shoes, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            were were completely worn out. And the
                        
                        
                                            
                            track had lots of different types of
                        
                        
                                            
                            surfaces on it. And of course, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            it it was barbaric because what you're
                        
                        
                                            
                            doing is you're making them walk or run
                        
                        
                                            
                            for hours at a time until these people
                        
                        
                                            
                            collapse. Doesn't matter how hot it is.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And of course, you know, the shoes would
                        
                        
                                            
                            wear thin. It didn't matter cuz their
                        
                        
                                            
                            feet would end up sort of bloodied. And
                        
                        
                                            
                            people would just be kind of almost walk
                        
                        
                                            
                            to their deaths or made to run to their
                        
                        
                                            
                            deaths just to test shoes.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            In the wounding experiments, the doctors
                        
                        
                                            
                            took perfectly healthy human beings and
                        
                        
                                            
                            inflicted injuries upon them that were
                        
                        
                                            
                            supposed to replicate war wounds and
                        
                        
                                            
                            they deliberately introduced foreign
                        
                        
                                            
                            objects like
                        
                        
                                            
                            of wood as well as deliberately
                        
                        
                                            
                            introducing infection um and bacteria to
                        
                        
                                            
                            the rooms as well.
                        
                        
                                            
                            As far as the practitioners were
                        
                        
                                            
                            concerned and the perpetrators,
                        
                        
                                            
                            they could somehow justify to themselves
                        
                        
                                            
                            the viciousness and the callousness and
                        
                        
                                            
                            brutality of these experiments by
                        
                        
                                            
                            somehow arguing that they were vital and
                        
                        
                                            
                            important for the future, for the future
                        
                        
                                            
                            of the Aryan race, for the future of
                        
                        
                                            
                            science. Even the Nazis had enough of a
                        
                        
                                            
                            moral compass to know that what they
                        
                        
                                            
                            were doing ultimately was wrong. other
                        
                        
                                            
                            cultures, other societies, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            wouldn't do it. And Himmler makes this
                        
                        
                                            
                            very famous speech in a place called
                        
                        
                                            
                            Posen in which he tells the assembled
                        
                        
                                            
                            kind of SS there, that look, what we've
                        
                        
                                            
                            got to do, what our generation's got to
                        
                        
                                            
                            do, it's distasteful. It's horrible. You
                        
                        
                                            
                            know, it, you know, killing all these
                        
                        
                                            
                            people is is is going to be a really
                        
                        
                                            
                            hard and tough thing to do. But
                        
                        
                                            
                            actually, humanity is going to thank us,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you know, in centuries and millennia to
                        
                        
                                            
                            come that we've got rid of these people.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            I'm
                        
                        
                                            
                            sorry.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            Foreign
                        
                        
                                            
                            speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            on
                        
                        
                                            
                            your hard
                        
                        
                                            
                            and hard in
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            today. In the waning weeks of the
                        
                        
                                            
                            European War, the world sees proof of
                        
                        
                                            
                            acts of savagery unparalleled in
                        
                        
                                            
                            history. The Supreme Allied commander
                        
                        
                                            
                            himself views the Nazi murder mills with
                        
                        
                                            
                            his generals. Fearing that word of these
                        
                        
                                            
                            nameless horrors might not be believed
                        
                        
                                            
                            at home, he summons lawmakers and
                        
                        
                                            
                            editors to see for themselves, then
                        
                        
                                            
                            report to America.
                        
                        
                                            
                            At this fish gallows, men died in drawn
                        
                        
                                            
                            out agony. In the new light of this
                        
                        
                                            
                            camera record, the last war's atrocity
                        
                        
                                            
                            stories, once thought propaganda, gain
                        
                        
                                            
                            new credence.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The international community had a very
                        
                        
                                            
                            good idea from the word go that the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazis were anti-Semitic. But I don't
                        
                        
                                            
                            think anybody believed that Jews were
                        
                        
                                            
                            going to be killed on an industrial
                        
                        
                                            
                            scale. Uh it was a fullyfledged
                        
                        
                                            
                            industrial genocide. The Jews were
                        
                        
                                            
                            murdered in thousands at a time in gas
                        
                        
                                            
                            chambers and then their bodies were
                        
                        
                                            
                            subsequently cremated. When the Allied
                        
                        
                                            
                            forces turned up at the camps, places
                        
                        
                                            
                            like Bellson, uh the world was horrified
                        
                        
                                            
                            when they saw the footage that emerged,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you know, corpses piled up having to be
                        
                        
                                            
                            bulldozed into pits. And the Allied
                        
                        
                                            
                            forces when they saw what had been done
                        
                        
                                            
                            to all these people in the camps, they
                        
                        
                                            
                            often got local Germans in to come and
                        
                        
                                            
                            see what had been done in their name.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And and obviously they also made, you
                        
                        
                                            
                            know, some of the people running the
                        
                        
                                            
                            camps, the SS not only help, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            clean up the camps and and, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            dispose of the bodies, but obviously
                        
                        
                                            
                            there was also summary justice. Uh even
                        
                        
                                            
                            though it's not kind of officially
                        
                        
                                            
                            recorded, there are many stories of
                        
                        
                                            
                            troops getting absolutely livid with um
                        
                        
                                            
                            some of the SS who you know ran the
                        
                        
                                            
                            camps and just shooting them out of
                        
                        
                                            
                            hand.
                        
                        
                                            
                            The question of how much the Germans
                        
                        
                                            
                            knew about what had happened to the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Jewish population is very complex. So
                        
                        
                                            
                            certainly they knew that their Jewish
                        
                        
                                            
                            compatriots were disappearing, being
                        
                        
                                            
                            taken away. They were being taken away.
                        
                        
                                            
                            They believed as indeed some of the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Jewish people themselves believed they
                        
                        
                                            
                            were taken away to work um in the east.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You know during the war leaked out from
                        
                        
                                            
                            people who had escaped some camps. There
                        
                        
                                            
                            were aerial pictures uh taken of places
                        
                        
                                            
                            like Achvitz. So you know by the middle
                        
                        
                                            
                            of the war uh the world at large had a
                        
                        
                                            
                            very good idea that this slaughter was
                        
                        
                                            
                            being carried out on an industrial
                        
                        
                                            
                            scale. Yes, some rumors did circulate
                        
                        
                                            
                            back um from soldiers on leave and um
                        
                        
                                            
                            other information did filter back to the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Reich, but the the German population was
                        
                        
                                            
                            busy with facing its own war, dealing on
                        
                        
                                            
                            a day-to-day basis with the course of
                        
                        
                                            
                            the war, Allied bombings, rationing,
                        
                        
                                            
                            food shortages.
                        
                        
                                            
                            It took a long time for the German
                        
                        
                                            
                            people to really come to terms with what
                        
                        
                                            
                            had been done in their name. I think a
                        
                        
                                            
                            lot of German people throughout the war
                        
                        
                                            
                            had had more than an inkling, but I
                        
                        
                                            
                            don't think they knew the extent of the
                        
                        
                                            
                            savagery of what went on, you know,
                        
                        
                                            
                            behind those miles upon miles of barbed
                        
                        
                                            
                            wire.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> There was a deliberate policy on the
                        
                        
                                            
                            part of the Nazis that this
                        
                        
                                            
                            extermination should take place not on
                        
                        
                                            
                            German soil. So these death camps were
                        
                        
                                            
                            all in Poland. So they were out of the
                        
                        
                                            
                            direct line of vision of the German
                        
                        
                                            
                            population,
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> you know, as as well as places like
                        
                        
                                            
                            Achvitz, which were relatively easy to
                        
                        
                                            
                            keep quite secret. What people also knew
                        
                        
                                            
                            about from troops returning from the
                        
                        
                                            
                            front and especially from the eastern
                        
                        
                                            
                            front was the Inats group and the mobile
                        
                        
                                            
                            killing squads that went behind the
                        
                        
                                            
                            German lines, killing anybody they
                        
                        
                                            
                            regarded as being an enemy of the Third
                        
                        
                                            
                            Reich, such as Jews and communists and
                        
                        
                                            
                            so on. a and these group had killed
                        
                        
                                            
                            millions of people and it was impossible
                        
                        
                                            
                            to keep that quiet.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> So once again there had been some
                        
                        
                                            
                            knowledge but limited knowledge about
                        
                        
                                            
                            the extent of what the Nazi regime was
                        
                        
                                            
                            putting into place in terms of um this
                        
                        
                                            
                            genocide that was taking place in in the
                        
                        
                                            
                            death camps.
                        
                        
                                            
                            >> When when the Germans fully appreciated
                        
                        
                                            
                            what had been done in their name by the
                        
                        
                                            
                            Nazis, it took a very long time for that
                        
                        
                                            
                            to sink in. If you look at public
                        
                        
                                            
                            opinion polls carried out in the 40s and
                        
                        
                                            
                            the 50s in Germany, there was still a
                        
                        
                                            
                            lot of residual affection for Nazism. It
                        
                        
                                            
                            was felt that this was something that
                        
                        
                                            
                            had made Germany great again. It was
                        
                        
                                            
                            something that had got things moving and
                        
                        
                                            
                            done. Yes, there had been excesses, the
                        
                        
                                            
                            small matter of the Holocaust clearly,
                        
                        
                                            
                            but people some people in Germany were
                        
                        
                                            
                            willing just to say if we can divorce
                        
                        
                                            
                            the kind of genocide bit from Nazism,
                        
                        
                                            
                            you know, is Nazism so bad? So there was
                        
                        
                                            
                            still this sort of kind of I'm not
                        
                        
                                            
                            saying all Germans I mean but a minority
                        
                        
                                            
                            of Germans were still you know
                        
                        
                                            
                            affectionate uh towards Nazism and
                        
                        
                                            
                            towards Hitler but I think yes
                        
                        
                                            
                            ultimately when it was shown quite how
                        
                        
                                            
                            evil Nazism was and the German people
                        
                        
                                            
                            fully appreciated it then yes uh the
                        
                        
                                            
                            opinion of Hitler was not quite so
                        
                        
                                            
                            positive.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Well, as you get older, I taught as
                        
                        
                                            
                            older you get, you forget what happens.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And it worked quite different. The older
                        
                        
                                            
                            you get, the more it works on you. The
                        
                        
                                            
                            more guilty you feel that you alive or
                        
                        
                                            
                            how did you really survive or your
                        
                        
                                            
                            family becomes more important to you
                        
                        
                                            
                            generates the feelings of revulsion.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Something you just cannot imagine or
                        
                        
                                            
                            take in.
                        
                        
                                            
                            But the will to live is extraordinarily
                        
                        
                                            
                            strong even under these conditions.
                        
                        
                                            
                            And the way I went through my period in
                        
                        
                                            
                            the camps was
                        
                        
                                            
                            each morning trying to do my best to
                        
                        
                                            
                            still be alive that evening.
                        
                        
                                            
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                            It's very disturbing. Of course, it's
                        
                        
                                            
                            very painful. You know, I live today
                        
                        
                                            
                            with
                        
                        
                                            
                            nights that I don't sleep, wondering
                        
                        
                                            
                            what went through their mind before
                        
                        
                                            
                            they're dead, what they felt, what they
                        
                        
                                            
                            were thinking of. Cuz it didn't take
                        
                        
                                            
                            very long to know. You know, you go into
                        
                        
                                            
                            the gas chamber. Took a minute and a
                        
                        
                                            
                            half, 2 minutes. You start choking.
                        
                        
                                            
                            You're still a little bit conscious
                        
                        
                                            
                            till you're dead. And this is a very
                        
                        
                                            
                            pretty fast process, but a very slow
                        
                        
                                            
                            one. When you suffer 30 seconds is a is
                        
                        
                                            
                            is a year. And the screaming and the
                        
                        
                                            
                            hollering is still ringing in my ears.
                        
                        
                                            
                            Doesn't go away. Does never go away.
                        
                        
                                            
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                            Quite frankly, I don't think that any
                        
                        
                                            
                            human being can ever be prepared for a
                        
                        
                                            
                            place like oh No matter how much
                        
                        
                                            
                            persecution before the
                        
                        
                                            
                            [Music]
                        
                        
                                            
                            I thought for a while it seemed like I
                        
                        
                                            
                            am watching
                        
                        
                                            
                            something that it's not really relating
                        
                        
                                            
                            to me. I was numb.
                        
                        
                                            
                            I closed my eyes and I thought maybe
                        
                        
                                            
                            this is a nightmare and if I close them
                        
                        
                                            
                            and open them up again maybe the whole
                        
                        
                                            
                            thing will disappear.
                        
                        
                                            
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