– English Lyrics

Lyrics & Translation

[English]

And while this is not a new hate, this

is something Jews have always lived, we

must be clear. It is a hatred that is

rising once again, and Britain must

defeat it once again.

On behalf of the nation,

I want to offer my condolences to the

families and victims affected. That was

the prime minister reacting on Thursday

night to the terrorist incident that

happened at the Heaton Park Synagogue in

Manchester on Thursday morning. There

was a car ramming, a stabbing attack.

Two people were killed and then the

asalent was shot dead by armed police.

Two people have been arrested and the

police are describing this now as a

terrorist incident. We will get the very

latest on this episode of newscast on

this attack which happened on the

holiest day of the year for Jewish

people Yam Kapur.

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio

and later on I'll be joined in the

studio by the new leader of the Greens,

Zack Palansky, because he's on his way

to the Green Party conference this

weekend. But first of all, let's talk

about that attack on a synagogue in

Manchester on Thursday morning when a

car rammed into the building and there

was then a stabbing attack. Two people

died in that attack and the suspect was

then very quickly shot dead by armed

police officers. On Thursday afternoon,

counterterror police officers in London,

because they are in overall charge of

counterterrorism policing in the UK,

described the attack as a terrorist

incident. Our colleague Danny Savage is

at the police cord and has been there

all day and joins us now on Newscast. Hi

Danny.

Hello Adam. Hi.

Um, so we're recording at about 20 5 on

Thursday. Just just want to paint a

picture of of where you are right now

and what's happening around you at the

moment a few hours after this incident.

Yeah, I'm just literally around the

corner from the synagogue where the

attack happened at half past 9 this

morning. If I just step aside for those

who are watching in vision as such. Um

down that road there is a Tjunction at

the end and then if you turn left you

come to the synagogue. So we're probably

about 150 200 m away from it. Um it's

been closed off. The cordon where you

can see people behind me is where the

police cordon is and there was been fire

engines and unmarked police cars sitting

there with their blue flashing lights

ever since I arrived here at about

midday. a a massive police operation.

But what struck me, Adam, when I got

here, was just it was eerily quiet. When

the police helicopter moved away, as it

did periodically, although it was here

for a lot of the time, it was so so

quiet here. There was like a shocked

silence in this community about the

events here this morning. And and you're

in this very sort of um unique sort of

sense of uh cuz it's Yonkapur and it's

such a something that is observed so

strictly around here. people who were

caught up in this and part of this

community, you know, they're not on the

mobile phones and they're certainly not

talking to us uh because it's such an

important religious festival even though

this this huge event had happened.

And we got um quite a lot of detail from

the chief constable of Greater

Manchester Police, Sir Steven Watson,

when he spoke to you and other

journalists um just a couple of hours

ago.

Yeah, there's a lot to pull out of that.

I think you what is extraordinary I

think that jumps out about today Adam is

the the really swift police reaction

this morning 9:31 the first 999 call

about something going on here with a car

being driven into a crowd of people and

a man stabbing people 9:37 it's declared

a major incident and the police have

shot the asalent by 9:38 so effectively

within 7 minutes or so it's all over the

other thing to pick out of that is that

you know before the police got here this

was down to the sort of um the volunteer

security at the synagogue that so many

Jewish synagogues have and other Jewish

um community facilities have as a matter

of routine. They had to deal with this

as it was unfolding in front of them. So

they have this car driving into a a

crowd of congregants in the synagogue

and then this guy obviously gets out of

the car wearing what looks like an

explosive device and starts, you know,

wielding a knife. Now, not only did they

kind of try and deal with him, but they

got the synagogue locked down almost

straight away. And that clearly

prevented this man with a knife and what

could have been an explosive device

getting into the building. And so the

one of the there was another reporter

that came in about somebody who'd rung

the police saying that they were trying

to see this man was using a knife to try

and get into the building. They

obviously stopped him from doing that.

So that was extraordinary as well. And

then the viability of this explosive

device too. you know how must people

have felt when they saw when they saw

him this this thing strapped to him. It

may not have been viable and it doesn't

appear to have gone off or anything but

you don't know that at the time and so

what you had throughout the afternoon

once they' shot him. They'd had to leave

the body in situ if you like until they

could get some bomb disposal experts on

site to assess what he had strapped to

him. And then you had we heard some

controlled explosions over lunchtime.

There was about three of them Adam I

think. And and I think we thought, oh,

is that them dealing with the with the

actual explosive device? But apparently

it wasn't. It was them actually trying

to get into the asalent's car, which

he'd used as a weapon.

And there's a very dramatic piece of

video that BBC's obtained that you can

see on the BBC News website and on the

app of of that that moment where the

firearms officers fire and you can see

there are people in the foreground on

the other side of the fence outside the

synagogue cuz this is all happening in

in the grounds of the synagogue. And

then one of the officers says, "He's got

a bomb. Get back." and in the strongest

terms is telling the bystanders to get

out of the way.

Yes.

Yeah. I mean, it's an extraordinary

clip, isn't it? I mean, I've I've

watched it a couple of times and says

there's one bloke just sort of stood at

the fence glare watching in going, "Co,

what's happening here?" That's a busy

road normally, Middleton Road where the

synagogue is. And you the the entrance

for the for a vehicle to get in is quite

narrow. There's a long wall against the

synagogue there. But I but just picking

up from talking to people, this is an

area where um lots of Orthodox Jews live

and and it's an Orthodox Jew synagogue

and they particularly have strict

observance um to to to Yong Kapur and

and and many of them I've been told

wouldn't have had their mobile phones

with them or anything like that. And so

if there's something unfolding in front

of them, they wouldn't have had their

mobile phones to bring for help. So

that's why the the calls about it

happening appear to have come from

people just passing by at the time who

just happened to be in the wrong place

at the wrong time as this was unfolding

in front of them. So you know it is

extraordinary to think about how all

those this thing unfolded. But all

credit to Greater Manchester police they

were here very very very quickly. And

it's interesting, isn't it Adam that,

you know, we all woke up to the

discussions this morning on all of the

media outlets about the panorama last

night about, you know, police bad

behavior and there was that strange

juosition as I was driving over

listening to five live today as this was

unfolding. You know, that was the phone

in subject. Yet then you had this people

ringing in going, "Wow, the police have

really responded to this so so quickly.

How brave were they? How quick were they

to do this?" M um then we got a

statement from the counterterrorism

policing assistant commissioner for the

Met because of course the Metropolitan

Police in London um oversee

counterterrorism for the whole of the

UK. We heard from Lawrence Taylor who

did a statement outside New Scotland

Yard. He said this was being uh treated

as a as a terrorist incident, but the

name of the person at the center of it

was not going to be released even though

the police are pretty confident they

know his identity for for the safety on

the ground. I I don't want to get you to

speculate or go into areas that you

don't know about, but what what do we

think is going on there?

I would think that within minutes or

half an hour or so of this attack

happening and the police having those

social media images and pictures of the

attacker, they would have been trying to

build a very clear picture of who that

person was and the identity of him. They

were probably would have known pretty

quickly who he was. I suspect what's

going on in the background is more to do

with the fact that though we go we know

who the guy is. We know where he lived

or we know where his last address was

potentially. we've got a car with a

registration plate so we can probably

backdate that to where it's been and

where it may have been recently, where

it was bought from, where its home

address is, that sort of thing. And

they're trying to build a very rapid

picture about is this a guy that was

working alone or is this somebody that

was part of a wider network and and was

there something are more people at risk

from these actions? So, I think that's

something to do with it. If you want to

know what the attacker looks like, well,

you can see from the pictures on the

website, you know, that there's there's

a reasonable image of that person up

there at the moment. Um, you know, the

the motivation, well, you know, if you

talk to people from the Jewish community

around here, they feel as though that

this has been coming for some time, that

there's been a, you know, because of the

situation in the Middle East at the

moment in Gaza, that there's been a lot

of anti-Jewish feeling. there's been a

lot of hate directed at them in recent

months and years and that's been growing

quite, you know, considerably in recent

months especially. And I was talking to

some members of the Jewish community

here at lunchtime who said they weren't

surprised at all that this has happened.

I think they were shocked that it's

happened at their synagogue on their

doorstep, but they think this has been

coming for a while now. And I think from

the broader point nationally in the

security services is to make sure that

nothing similar happens. I had a message

from a friend who was at a synagogue um

uh in northwest London earlier today and

and word spread very quickly about this

incident in Manchester and there were

messages sent to synagogues elsewhere

around the country that an incident had

happened at somewhere else and people

were sto told to stay inside and not go

outside until they were confident that

the situation was safe. So word got out

quickly, but of course the immediate

worry is is this somebody acting alone

or is this part of a a wider thing that

there could be incidents at other

synagogues or other uh Jewish

institutions in the UK. And I suppose

another reason why the police might not

go into details about someone's identity

is because as you were saying, two

people have been arrested in connection

with this, which means there's potential

for prosecutions there.

Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. That's it. But I think

there's more I I think it's more to do

with the ongoing ongoing of the moment

security operation that is is is meaning

that they're not releasing that detail

at the moment.

Yeah. Um and in terms of how this is

being processed and interpreted and felt

in in the the wider city of Manchester

in Greater Manchester, is there is there

a sense of how it's going down in the

city?

Yeah, I mean there was a there was a

statement released by the sort of

elected members from Manchester City

Council at lunchtime today saying, you

know, we've got to stand united. We

mustn't be divided by the hatred that

this um you know, appears to have caused

this crime. I mean, lots of people

described this as a hate crime today.

The police are describing it as a terror

a terrorist incident. I this is a this

is a big deal. This is a extraordinary

awful thing to happen to this community.

But more broadly as well, I mean, there

was the a helicopter potentially used by

the SAS was seen in the skies over

Manchester at lunchtime. Was that used

or was personnel used for that in raids

going on uh since then in this local

area? But um you know, I don't sense I I

don't sense a heightened tension on the

streets of Manchester. People are just

dismayed that it's happened. Adam um

Danny, thank you very much for that

update today. Thank you.

Now, in other news, the Green Party

conference is getting underway in

Bournemouth this weekend. And on his way

to it is Zach Palansky, their newly

elected leader, who won the leadership

contest with a massive landslide. And on

his way to it, he popped into the

newscast studio so he could tell me a

little bit more about the conference and

how his relatively new leadership is

shaping up. And Zach is here now. Hello,

Zach.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Thanks for coming back on Newscast. I

mean, you you've had a busy day today.

So, it's the it's the kind of the

pre-conference choreography that all

party leaders go through. Just run

through all the things you've done

already.

So, I did the regional round this

morning, which I believe is

affectionately called the Liz Trust

round because it's existed long before

her.

All the local radio stations. Yeah,

exactly. And she had that nightmare. So,

I was I did wonder how it was going to

go. But actually, I really enjoyed it.

It's genuinely fascinating hearing all

the different presenters from all the

different regions around the country

that have very similar questions in some

ways about the big issues and then

there's always kind of a hyper local

issue that they want to know your

opinion on.

Uh so I did that for radio. Then I did

the same thing for TV which I think is

going out tonight.

Then I went on politics live with Penny

Mortyn who I have to say like I uh

disagree with on everything politically

possible.

As a gay man, she's kind of iconic.

Yeah, she is quite cool.

Yeah, exactly. Um, so, uh, did you get

on, you and Penny?

We really got on. We We were on, um,

GMBB, uh, a couple of weeks ago, Good

Morning Britain, where, um, we were

discussing Donald Trump's visit,

and in the green room, she was telling

me stories about Churchill for a while,

which I think she probably misjudged her

audience,

but I also just enjoyed the fact that

she's a human being that cares about

tradition.

I mean, we're now talking about a

different party, but did you get

comeback vibes from her?

She said on Politics Live she's coming

back. She said she's looking for an MP

seat. The presenter then said,

"Uh, do you want to be leader and she

quickly batted that down, but I think

she's probably looking at Annie Bernham

and going, that's not the strategy to

say.

Keep your powder dry." I mean, of

course, in the middle of all that media,

we got the news from Manchester about

the the events at the synagogue. Um,

what would your reaction to that be?

I mean, as a politician, sometimes you

try and find new things to say, and I

think there's nothing new to say here

other than it's just utterly horrifying.

I suppose the reflection I do have is

I'm from Manchester. I'm Jewish. I went

and attended a Jewish synagogue pretty

near Heaton Park. I went to school very

close to that area. So I think when you

can associate a horrific attack with

something that feels personal, it does

hit a little bit harder. Um so I was

just checking in with my mom and with my

family just in terms of how they're

feeling.

Um

how how are they?

Just really worried. Um my mom said that

she has friends who go to that

synagogue. those people who go to that

synagogue, there's already a real fear

in the air around rising anti-semitism

and rising hate crime. I suppose uh the

only thing I would kind of move to, I

guess, is some of the proudest work I I

have as a Jewish politician in my role

as a London assembly member is when I

work with the Muslim community in the

interfaith work. I'm recognizing that

anti-semitism and Islamophobia are two

sides of the same coin. And I think it's

really important also as a gay man that

minority communities stick together. We

don't yet know the reasons for this

attack, the motives for this attack, but

even without knowing that, we know that

anti-semitism is on the rise in the same

time that Islamophobia has been on the

rise. And I think as politicians, it's

really important that we look to civic

decency, democracy, uh the work that Joe

Cox did around having more in common

than that divides us. And it just feels

like a a day for that kind of

reflection. I mean, as politicians from

different parts of the political

spectrum react to this, what would you

say would be a bad way of reacting to

it, and as you said, we don't we don't

know the details of of what was behind

this attack, but just in terms of

handling it as a society. I was

disappointed in how Chem Badnock had

reacted to it. Um, she immediately

pivoted to talking about the Middle

East. The Middle East is something I

deeply care about, and I don't want to

do the same thing that Kem Badnock's

just done whilst criticizing her. I

think it's really important to not

conflate these issues and actually just

recognize that this is about community

cohesion. And of course, uh, community

cohesion is disrupted when there is

conflict elsewhere in the world. But I

think in the immediate aftermath of an

attack when you don't yet know what's

going on, I think it's important to just

focus um on the uh victims, the

survivors. And also, I think it's

important to thank the emergency

responders. Everyone thanks them for

when they turn up, but actually there

will be hours and hours now of work uh

to do that. those those people are

doing. And I was pleased to just hear

the prime minister say in a statement

that they're going to provide extra

security and support for synagogues

right across the country.

Well, that was going to be my next

question. I mean, there's already a

certain level of security around most

synagogues. Do you think that's going to

have to go to the next level now?

Uh, I think potentially. I think again

it's about understanding what this

attack, how motivated it was in terms of

was this a group, was this a lone lone

killer. Um it's impossible to know that

without knowing those those

conversations. I think more widely

though um we can't as a society just

keep making ourselves more secure or

just keep employing more um weapons or

people or literal walls. Of course

that's a kind of short-term measure and

I'm not knocking that. It's important

that people physically feel safe. I

think what's much more deep rooted those

are those deep conversations about who

are we as a society? Who are we as a

community? And I think a lot of the flag

discourse that's happened recently,

again, not relating it to this, we don't

we don't know what's happened here, but

more widely the kind of anger that there

is in society, the toxicity, finding a

place to go that's about having a much

more informed, nuanced conversation. Uh

it's not a deep criticism of the Lib

Dems, but to see Tim Faren wrapped up in

a in a union jacket.

Oh, I actually missed that.

You missed something on the news. I'm

amazed.

And I can understand why he did it. So,

it's not, you know, I'm not it's not an

allout attack, but I don't think it's

going to cut it. I think challenging

flag waving when it's used to intimidate

people. Not all flag waving is about

that, but there's certainly been flag

waving that I would say has been used to

intimidate people. As a response to

that, to wrap yourself in the flag and

talk about patriotism, I don't think is

the answer. I think we need a much more

considered long- form conversation about

migration, about asylum, about the

British flag, about empire, about

colonialism. These are going to be

complicated conversations.

I mean, how how does that happen though?

Because like since year dot politicians

have said, "Oh, we need to have a big

grown-up conversation about insert

subject." But these days, how do you do

that?

I think it happens through leadership.

So far too often uh what politicians

mean by leadership when they talk about

connecting or uh communicating with with

constituents. In the worst case

scenario, they go to a focus group and

then they make the rules depended on

what they've been told at a focus group.

In a better kind of scenario, they go

out to communities and they tell people

what their policies are. What I'm

looking to do is something very

different. It's not have a blank sheet

of paper. I think that's what Ed

Milliban said at one point. You know,

this kind of idea of blank canvas and

then we got the edstone. I think that's

the wrong way to do things. I think

you've got to be very clear about your

values. I think that are conversations

that are going to be very difficult to

have. I was actually just confronted

with one of these on politics live.

There was a worker in the oil refinery

where there's lots of redundancies and

we were talking about net zero. It just

struck me that as a politician my very

first instinct I think it was the right

instinct was to connect with the person

on human level that people are losing

their jobs and politicians who just bang

on about net zero without connecting

with that first I think are really

missing the point.

So what did you say to them?

I said to them that uh everything in me

feels for the people who have lost their

jobs and their families and at the same

time and and at the same time is a

really important caveat here. We've got

to get to net zero. We've got to tackle

the climate crisis. I'm not doing any

good to those workers to allow more

wildfires, more floods, more

destruction.

Again, what needs to happen though is a

politician needs to have those direct

difficult conversations and say more

than anything, I want to protect your

livelihood. I want to make sure that

this is co-designed and co-produced with

you and the people most affected. This

doesn't happen from burying our head in

the sand and just saying either we need

to get to net zero, sub the workers, or

the workers are the most important thing

here. We don't need to worry about the

science of a climate crisis. We need to

have those difficult complex

conversations, but ultimately make sure

we're not talking down to people and

actually politicians are in listening

mode whilst maintaining values. And

that's for tightroppe. Maintain your

values, but make sure you you're

listening and and have those

conversations.

And that's all that's all well and good

from a sort of like how you the

relationship between the voter and the

politician and the person affected by a

policy decision and the person making

the policy. But what what have you got

to offer that person now

to lower their bills? And that's the

number one thing I want to do over the

next few days in terms of the message I

want people to take from the Green Party

conference. Everyone knows hopefully

that we want to tackle the climate

crisis and we want to protect the

environment and that will always remain

stable. What they don't know though is

that I want to lower bills. I want to

all bills.

Yeah. Literally all bills. So we could

do things like bring the water companies

back into public ownership. It is

outrageous that they are pumping sewage

into our water and charging us extra for

the privilege. We have a government who

say it would be too expensive. But we

have shareholders who say these assets

are worth nothing. So someone's not

telling the full truth here and my my

money is on the government. We can do

that. We can insulate every single home

in Britain that needs it. That would

both keep homes warm in the winter, cool

in the summer. It would bring down

bills. Back to that theme again. And it

would create, back to the jobs theme,

hundreds of thousands jobs of new jobs

in the green kind of sector that could

be in trade unions, in the public

sector. People are paid properly.

They're treated with dignity and care at

work. It just feels like there is a

green vision to be had here where far

too often we've been stuck in the

language of sacrifice and what needs to

change that's going to be bad for

people.

Eat less meat because produce lots of

carbon. Yeah. Um but in terms of

insulating every home in Britain very

very ambitious goal. I mean how long

would that take?

Uh that's where you need to be in

government I think truthfully to go what

is the plan here? That's a deeply

dissatisfying answer. I can hear that.

No I understand. Um but I think it can

be done quicker than we think it can.

And where I take from that is the

Marshall Plan or also the setting up of

the NHS. This was all done in response

to the crisis of the Second World War.

They said, "We've got to change society.

Transform it. Let's get on with it." And

I think what's missing at the moment is

a response to the inequality crisis. And

what I mean by that is since the

pandemic began, billionaire wealth in

this country has doubled. But our public

assets have absolutely been stripped

away. We've got people sleeping out on

the streets. We've got people using warm

banks and food banks. It's absolutely

outrageous and shameful. It's not enough

just to fingerpoint, but it is enough to

go, we can't carry on like this, guys.

We can't keep the status quo. We

actually need to change everything. But

in changing everything, we can make sure

that working-class communities, small

business owners, the kind of 99% of

people can be kept together with what

they have more in common. And what we

need to recognize is there are a very

small group of people,

multi-millionaires and billionaires, who

are controlling our assets, who are

controlling the narrative. And actually,

we need to challenge them. And I don't

necessarily mean in an aggressive way.

Some of these people like the patriotic

millionaires, a group of millionaires

who are saying actually we think we

should pay more tax that would be better

for society. I think it's about really

driving this conversation and saying we

really need to look at a fair taxation

system, how we invest in our economy and

crucially break down this awful metaphor

that a household economy is anything

like a national budget. By which you

mean actually a government can borrow a

lot more than say you or I could on our

credit card or our mortgage because the

government is subject to different

forces to to us.

Yeah. I go even deeper than that. Who

are we borrowing from? Who are we in

debt to? Largely it's to ourselves and

to our own banks. And so um actually of

all people Richard Ty has been talking

about this that we're paying money on

commercial loans to banks that we

actually don't need to be paying that

money. So there's lots of places where I

think we could

Yeah. This is basically the the the

interest that the Bank of England pays

to commercial banks. Yeah,

exactly that. And that's just one

example, but I think there's quite

Do you find yourself do you find

yourself surprised that you're agreeing

with a reform policy?

I mean, horrendously. Okay.

I feel like I need to, you know, wash

wash myself afterwards. But I think, you

know, the point here is, you know, I

despise most of reform's politics. What

I think they do really, really well, and

it's something I've been learning from

is connecting with people's fears and

connecting with the things they care

about every single day. Now, I think

reform solutions are the politics of

hate, despair, division, and I'm

definitely not going to dabble in those

at all. But if they can rock it through

the polls by really cutting through by

talking about the things that matter to

people in the economy, I don't see no

reason why the Greens can't rock it

through the polls with a politics of

hope, community, and actual tangible

difference to people.

I mean, we start off this conversation

talking about anti-semitism and

islamophobia and having better

conversations about that stuff. Why is

it then okay to say that there's a

political party that you despise?

Because that word that dword is a strong

word.

Well, I think I said I despise our

politics. So, I was very careful about

how I said it. I think it's about not

despising humanity.

But you still did use the word despise

because I think

and so that that ups the ante that turns

up the temperature on the conversation.

Yeah. I might reflect this a little bit

back on you, although you guys

interviewing me, which is I guess in the

media if you say things that are quite

bland or don't feel like they're kind of

punchy or hitting, they're just not

really heard. And that's partly it's

definitely not your fault personally.

It's 247 media where politicians are

constantly going, "How can this message

be heard?" So, I am really careful about

my language. The other day I went to

labor conference and everything in me

said the the language here, I realize

I'm using it now, but hopefully to

deconstruct it, is that I'm parking my

tanks on the lawn of a labor conference.

And I just think that's inappropriate

with the amount of conflict we have

right now. But then there isn't an

obvious metaphor that we have in our

society for what does it look like even

the whole language.

Yeah. So, why did you go to labor

conference then? uh because I wanted to

speak to people who wanted the touris

out absolutely don't want the politics

of reform and feel like their only

choice is karma but this is a prime

minister who has cut disability benefits

kept the two child benefit cap at

well no he reversed his plan to cut

disability benefits

right okay but I mean still uh yes still

not good enough that that was even on

the table that for lots of people in

this country they were deeply worried

about that and I would say is still

enabling the ongoing genocide in Gaza

and so I know there's lots of people in

the Labour party who are deeply unh

satisfied, deeply disillusioned. I also

know that K star or whoever the future

Labour leaders uh campaign will be is

it's me or it's Nigel Farage. And I want

to deconstruct that narrative right now

because it doesn't have to be that way.

We're no longer in a two-party system.

The Green Party at the last election got

nearly 2 million votes. We've got 39

second place finishes. We've got 80,000

members now. The reason why that's

significant is that's a 33% increase in

the entire membership since I announced

I was running for leader. We've also had

21 defections this year alone, 10 of

them last month. So there's a very clear

trajectory for the Green Party right

now. That's not just about disaffected

Labor voters. It's also about

disaffected Tory voters, even reform

voters and people who haven't voted yet.

But I think there's a very clear

narrative between now and May when we

have huge elections where we're hoping

to win the mayor of Hackne. We're hoping

to win uh seats right across Manchester

in the north of England. Uh a lot of

these votes will come from previous

Labour voters. So I just wanted to go to

exactly where they were, speak to people

on the street. I vox popped. I love a

good vox pop. And

learned it from you guys. But what I saw

time and time again is actually people

who were legitimately angry and

frustrated and saying that Karma got

through on one word which was change.

But what change has he really offered?

And even where there has been change,

has it really been changed for the

better? And so I think this is a moment

for an alternative. I'm not surprised

that more people than ever before are

going to join. Party.org.uk. Sorry, that

was cheeky.

No, no, you got to get the plug in. Um,

you talked about defections. Uh, that's

at like at a local level. Um, can you

imagine a world where Labor MP defects

to the Greens?

I can't imagine a world where it doesn't

happen. Actually, I think it's probably

coming closer and closer. I really

Are you talking to people? I'm talking

to people all the time and I

legitimately don't have an answer right

now. Otherwise, I think I' I'd be

tempted to kind of hint at it. There's

no Labor MP right now that's saying to

me, "I'm going to defect." There are

lots of Labor MPs who I'm regularly

talking to who are so deeply unhappy and

can't see a route anymore in the Labor

Party.

Um, someone who said this kind of thing

publicly, so I will be indiscreet and

talk about them is Clive Lewis. He says

that right now he feels like he needs to

stay within the Labor Party and fight

within the Labour Party. He is not shy

about his criticism of the Prime

Minister. He's not shy about his

criticism of the entire program of the

Labor government. So Clive's a friend.

He's someone I have a lot of respect

for, but I also think there's a point

where it doesn't make coherent sense

anymore to be so unhappy with a party

and so unhappy with the government, but

to say I'm still going to stick here

because actually what I see is the prime

minister uses those people as a shield.

He talks to the left of the country and

he goes, "Oh, look, it's not all that

bad. I've got Clive Lewis and Nadia

Whittam and I've got Richard Burggeon.

You know, it's all going to be fine

because these people are here." And I do

think all of those MPs who I have time

for at some point when is enough enough?

And it's not for me to decide that.

That's up for them to decide it. All I'd

say my door is very open.

Yeah, I was going to say you extend an

open hand, but you went for the door.

Yeah, I've got a boring caveat which is

it's not my decision. It's an elected

bodies within the Green Party because

we're very democratic. Yes. But I

appreciate that's not a fun

conversation. So but you're if it's

going to happen anywhere, it would be

here,

right? Yeah. True. So that that would be

the thing that needs to happen. But

also, you know, I'm a leader who won the

election with 85% of the vote. I think

what I say does matter. Yeah. And I I,

you know, I really want to see those MPs

defend.

Well, that that's what I was then

thinking about when you talked about the

the internal structures within the party

that basically like binds your hands as

a sort of negative way of putting it.

You would say it's a flourishing of of

of direct democracy within the the Green

Party of England and Wales. I mean, do

you think there's a case for toughening

up the powers you as the leader have

because you won such a convincing

victory and actually maybe less less

compromise behind the scenes more your

your way?

I'd almost say the opposite and I'm not

arguing here for less powers. The the

leader of the Green Party has very

little kind of formal power. It's all

about do you have a microphone? What are

the things you're saying? But actually,

I think those things really matter for

the exact reason where we partly started

this conversation that I'm not a blank

sheet of paper. I have lots of ideas and

lots of opinions. But also it means that

I don't ever just go off on the things

that you know I think that day. There's

a genuine uh community feel of me going

around the country constantly. I'm

constantly traveling to local parties

all around England and Wales. I'm

listening deeply. I'm out on doorsteps

and constantly evolving the message

constantly uh both fitting in with my

values but also listening to what's

being reflected back at me. I think

that's a much better way of doing

politics. And I don't just mean for the

Green Party. I see that as a role model

of how I would want us to do politics as

we increasingly uh control

administrations or run administrations

and increasingly have more MPs in

government. It's about making sure we

have that connection. And then the other

bit I would say with that, which is

where we're not where I want to be yet,

is with the trade unions. I want to form

much deeper links with ultimately not

the trade union leaders, but but

actually the workers because they're the

people I really care about. And I think

ultimately if the leaders of trade

unions don't represent their workers,

then the workers will make different

decisions. And I want to make it clear

that I'm there to keep having those

conversations both with the workers and

with the leaders because I think the

home of the worker is in the Green

Party.

But just as we get ready to scrutinize

the Green Party conference this weekend

in Bournemouth, I mean, should we not be

looking out for like your classic

trademark policy being launched on the

platform because that's just not how the

Green Party works.

That's right. And I actually am not

launching a policy and some of the media

rounds this morning I think found that

quite odd because traditionally you do

launch a new big policy and I thought

about it and we kind of brainstormed

some ideas and then I just thought I

want to go back to basics. What is the

Green Party for? The Green Party is a

party of environmental, social, racial

and economic justice. Everyone knows

about the environmental bit. So I want a

conference speech and a conference where

if journalists just take one message

from it, the Green Party care about the

cost of living crisis. We care about the

fact that we've got to tackle the

climate crisis, but to do that, we need

to make sure that working-class

communities are not badly affected. In

fact, quite the opposite. In tackling

the climate crisis, we need to make sure

that we are bettering people's lives,

that we're redistributing power and

wealth around this country. And I think

all of that's quite a complex message. I

think it's communicable and I hope I'm

doing it. But I think you don't need to

add new shiny things or new policies to

that. I think it's going back to basics

and saying there is a 1% who control the

power and wealth. Let's redistribute

that. And that's ultimately what you get

when you join the Green Party. I also

secondly I'm careful about promoting

podcasts on other podcasts, but I really

am going somewhere substantial. I

launched the podcast the day I became

leader of the Green Party, Bold

Politics, and Zack Palansky. It went to

number three in the country. I'm not

competing with Newscast. I wouldn't ever

do that. But the important reason why

I'm saying this is I've used it as a

platform to platform, I would say, lefty

voices that you would expect. I had Gary

Stevenson on yesterday, although say

he's not a lefty voice. Owen Jones on

Saturday night. I'm doing a live episode

with Grace Blakeley. Um, I've got Jolon

Rubenstein coming on. So, Zoe Gardner,

amazing voices. But actually, where I'm

really interested in is on day one of my

leadership, I went to Clactton

because I thought rather than go

somewhere where I'm just um kind of

listening to people who already agree

with me, I want to go have some more

challenging conversations. I met a guy

there called Paul who' just come out of

prison. He said he was really bothered

by migration. He then said, "I'm Irish,

so it's not that I hate migrants, but

just look at my community. His words,

not mine, but it's a crap hole." you

know, how can you say that we need more

people here? And I just said to him,

would you have this conversation with me

on a podcast because I think it's really

important as a party people can hear

that we're listening to voices that you

wouldn't necessarily expect us to agree

with and we are not just listening, but

we're actually evolving as a party to

make sure we're reflecting people's

concerns and that's people right across

England and Wales. And so that's really

what I do want to do with this

conference. It's not about policy as

much. It's about going actually what

what does this look like in round? I

should caveat all of that with I am

proposing a new policy, but I'm going to

do a conference tour. Okay. But it's

just a challenge. Labour's indefinite

leave to remain uh changes. And I just

think it's important as a political

party in British politics that people

know is unashamedly saying migration is

part of what makes this country great.

And as much as And so would you leave

indefinite indefinitely leave to remain

as it is because Shabban Mmood wants to

increase the qualifying period and put

more factors in there like your

contribution to British society to

decide whether you get the status or

not. I think it's grim and I think it's

outrageous. And I think we need to be

clear where it's coming from. Donald

Trump says something one day, the next

day reform repeats the same thing and

then a few months later Karma starts to

panic and starts to legislate for that.

We are on a doom spiral with all of

this. And actually what we need is uh is

politicians to look the public in the

eye and say even though this is

difficult for you to hear sometimes,

migration is really important for this

country. This country was partly built

on migration. And actually when you look

at the NHS, we've got 150,000 vacancies.

Now I know someone will say to me, "What

about British workers?" Of course we

need to train British workers. And of

course that's part of the picture. But

also what's truthful right now is that

if you use the National Health Service,

the person who treats you or cares for

you is so much more likely to be a

migrant than anyone in front of you in

the queue. We never hear these arguments

or very rarely.

Yeah. But not to get predict you. So

you're going to oppose the labor

changes, but you would but would you

keep indefinitely to remain as it is

for now? But I do think there's a longer

conversation about how do we make people

feel more welcome in this country? And I

I recognize someone who is less

judicious than you would immediately say

to me, but look at the polling. Look

what people care about. And then I go,

"The small boats, that's 5% of migration

in this country." But I would say it

dominates about 95% of the conversation

about migration. So for media, keep up

the conversation about small boats. And

then polling says people are worried

about the small boats. It's all one

vicious cycle of not hearing from voices

that are going, "Actually, I hear your

concerns." And if your concerns are

about not enough council homes, can't

get a dentist dentist appointment,

feeling like the country doesn't really

work anymore, I share those concerns,

and I think they're totally legitimate.

But those concerns are decades of

conservative austerity and now labor

austerity that are not going to fix

those things. They're not the problems

of migrants. And I think comes back to

the blank sheet of paper thing. when I

think the public are not in the place

that I think they need to be on these

issues, we need to put the information

in there. And I think that's part of the

politician's job. I also think as well

as that it's not about sneering at

people or talking down to them. But it

is about saying if people have got the

right information, that's part one of

part two. The second part though is

sometimes people can have all the

information in the world. If there are

powerful vested interests that are

pumping out dangerous and toxic

narratives, then you've got to take on

those vested interests. I think the

Green Party in the past have done the

information bit. They've not done the

vested interest bit. I'd like to think

of myself as fearless and I'm ready to

take on those vested interests.

Okay. Well, from one podcaster to

another, thank you very much.

Thanks.

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
attack /əˈtæk/ A2	noun - a violent act or assault verb - to take aggressive action against someone or something
community /kəˈmjuːnɪti/ A2	noun - a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common
incident /ˈɪnsɪdənt/ B1	noun - an event or occurrence, especially one that is violent or causes harm
police /pəˈliːs/ A1	noun - the civil force of a state responsible for maintaining public order and safety verb - to maintain order and enforce the law
terrorist /ˈterərɪst/ B1	noun - a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims adjective - relating to terrorism
synagogue /ˈsɪnəɡɒɡ/ B2	noun - a Jewish place of worship
security /sɪˈkjʊərɪti/ A2	noun - the state of being free from danger or threat
response /rɪˈspɒns/ B1	noun - an answer or reaction to something
victim /ˈvɪktɪm/ A2	noun - a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event
hate /heɪt/ A1	noun - an intense feeling of dislike verb - to feel intense dislike for someone or something
arrest /əˈrest/ A2	verb - to seize and hold a person in custody, typically for a crime
explosive /ɪkˈspləʊsɪv/ B2	noun - a substance that can explode adjective - relating to or characterized by explosion
motivation /ˌməʊtɪˈveɪʃən/ B2	noun - a reason or reasons for acting or behaving in a particular way
cohesion /kəʊˈhiːʒən/ C1	noun - the action or fact of forming a united whole
disaffected /ˌdɪsəˈfɛktɪd/ C1	adjective - dissatisfied and discontented, often with a system or authority