– English Lyrics

Lyrics & Translation

[English]

After another major Russian strike

lasting 12 hours last weekend, Vice

President J. D. Vance's revelation that

the US is considering a Ukrainian

request for long range Tomahawk missiles

was interpreted by some as the latest

sign of Washington's waning patience

with Moscow. But despite Kev's

insistence that the ability to strike

deep inside Russia could give the

Kremlin more incentive to pursue a peace

deal, the conversation around Europe in

recent weeks has been of a growing war,

not a conflict approaching its

conclusion. And ahead of an informal

summit in Copenhagen on Wednesday, the

Danish Prime Minister Meta Frederickson

was clear Russian aggression is not only

a problem for Ukraine. I think we have

to leave our national perspective

talking about security in Europe and

look at the pattern with the hybrid war

going on and look at the war on Ukraine

not as a war in a European country

Ukraine but as a Russian attempt to

threaten all of us. Though, as NATO

allies continue to emphasize their

long-term will to defend one another,

has the West exhausted its diplomatic

efforts to talk Putin down? As always,

our team are here to answer all of your

questions.

I'm James Waterhouse.

I'm Laura Godzy.

And I'm Lucy Hawings. Welcome to

Ukraine.

Ukraine cast from BBC News.

[Music]

Hi Laura, great to have you with us. Hi.

Can you explain what you do here at the

BBC?

I am a senior journalist on the BBC's

Europe digital desk. Um, so I work on

European stories with a big focus on

Russia and Ukraine.

And James, you're just back. How was it

in Kev this time in Ukraine?

It was it was difficult. I think as an

environment, it's more oppressive than I

remember. I saw friends and colleagues

who were visibly exhausted and that 12-h

hour air raid you mentioned last

weekend. I mean, it was just

extraordinary. You know, they typically

come on a Saturday night, but the the

volume of drones being launched and

Russia's missiles evolving, outpacing

Ukraine's air defenses

exist, you know, existing in Kiev is as

hard as it's been. We saw some troops in

a southern base who, you know, are

they're a rare breed really. They're

still very extremely patriotic, very

motivated, but broadly there is huge

fatigue. Um, but the Ukrainians still

see as having as having no other choice

but to to defend themselves.

And psychologically, how do people cope

in those 12 hours? What do people do to

calm themselves?

They have to drag themselves out of bed

or they have to learn how to sleep in a

bathtub or a corridor. Um, you know, we

woke up on last Sunday, uh, and we

headed to a suburb of Kiev, this kind of

new build estate, and you you you sadly

get used to noticing the the symptoms of

what kind of strike it's been, and this

was unmistakably a ballistic missile. A

whole block had imploded and every

window had been blown through. So, if

you can imagine sitting in a small

apartment, the force of that energy

going through such a narrow space. I

mean, there are people that just look

shell shocked with all of their

belongings strewn everywhere, glass

falling from the sky, and that is one

day.

One day. Wow. It's uh the first week

that we've had in a while where there

hasn't been just one overwhelming

headline story uh on Ukraine. So, we've

had a varied list of questions this

week. And we're going to start with what

feels like a pretty significant domestic

development in Ukraine. And it's

something that we haven't spoken a lot

about on the podcast, but uh listen to

Deborah. She's been in touch.

Hello, Ukraine cast. As of the 26th of

August, the Ukrainian government passed

a resolution allowing men aged 18 to 22

inclusive, to cross the state border

during martial law. Few questions. Why

the change in martial law? How long will

these young men be able to be away from

Ukraine legally? And what are the

implications regarding visa applications

and home for Ukraine?

Thanks very much. That's Dev and

Colchester.

It's a great question, isn't it? I mean,

we are talking about a mobilization law

that is deeply unpopular. Um, there is

no cap on service. It means men between

18 and 60 can't leave the country until

now. We've had this relaxation. But if

you're 25 and over without exemptions

such as having three children, a

vulnerable relative, you will be

eligible for for conscription. You can't

leave the country. So what Zalinski has

done with in the face of growing

political pressure is say look those

under 25 this cohort of men you can go

you can come back as you wish there'll

be no hassle for you at the border um

and you'll be welcome back what he is

trying to do is relieve some of that

pressure but also he's having to keep

half an eye on the future of his country

because Donald Trump is pressuring him

as well saying you're not mobilizing

enough men why he argued should we do

anything for you if you're not doing as

as much as you can be doing. And what

Zalinski is saying is I can't wipe out a

generation. So this is a, you know, a

major concession in that sense, but

you've also got Ukrainian universities

trying to offer concessions,

scholarships. They're trying to lure

their talent back to prevent any kind of

brain drain.

Has there been one? I mean, has there

been an exodus of young men leaving?

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to get an exact

number on those who've swerved the

draft. I know people who have done it,

who have had the money to to pay for it.

Um, but we are talking tens of

thousands. More broadly, Ukraine's

population has dropped by 10 million

from externally and internally displaced

people. And you know, this is the course

that wars take. And I think what was

what was interesting as well, one of the

ways that Zilinski explained this

decision back in August was that, you

know, he talked about the phenomenon of

um 18 year olds, so school seniors um

being taken out of school by their

parents before they finished school and

be sent abroad so that they could get

out of the country before they turned 18

and then dodge, you know, conscription.

And and I think he said, you know, that

is such a crucial time in which people

form an attachment to their country, a

connection to Ukraine.

Deb, thanks for that question. Well, I

mentioned earlier that the US is

considering supplying long range

Tomahawk missiles to Kev. We've had a

question from Jacqueline who is in

Florida in the US and it's all about the

mechanisms that the US is using right

now to provide that sort of aid.

Hello Ukraine cast. My name is

Jacqueline. The Biden administration

passed the Ukraine Democracy Defense

Lenley's act in 2022, but it was never

enacted before it expired. Do you

believe a similar aid mechanism could be

revived or implemented under Trump?

Before I ask you about that, Laura, can

you just explain where we're at right

now? What mechanism is in place at the

moment?

So, um, as of July, um, Donald Trump has

basically, um, entered an agreement with

NATO, um, after receiving the NATO chief

Mark in Washington, whereby NATO

countries, um, will be allowed to buy US

weapons to then send on to Ukraine. Um

so clearly what matters to to Donald

Trump as and his base as he's always

said is that nothing is given for free.

So um as long as somebody pays for these

weapons then the understanding is that

more or less anything can be sent with

great limitations as we know on long

range but that's another another topic.

But at the moment the US is providing um

or is saying it will provide uh some

defense systems like Patriots but

there are big issues with delivery of

course hearing that constantly.

Yes. Yes. and delays and then the

expense of them etc. And it is providing

intelligence as well but that's at the

moment that's as far.

So what was this lend lease act that

Jacqueline's asking about?

It it was partly symbolic because the

idea was that the US would provide

Ukraine with defense equipment um

without asking for immediate payment. So

um it it was meant to streamline the

delivery of these weapons to bypass

bureaucracy and red tape. Um but I guess

at the time the situation was so urgent

and critical that what they decided to

do instead was to send Ukraine money. Um

so you know huge um you know billions

and billions of dollars in in um in aid.

Um and that took precedence over this

lend lease scheme that never really um

came to fruition in the end. So could

Trump um agree to something like this

again as we were saying? Um, I mean,

maybe the idea of a scheme under which,

you know, payment is delayed wouldn't

quite appeal to him as long as it's

payment. But, you know, when would

Ukraine be able to pay this back?

Unclear. So, maybe this wouldn't be

really his preferred option at the

moment.

Yeah. And I think that there are those

growing Democratic voices, aren't they,

saying, "Look, you're growing

frustrated, Mr. President,

with Vladimir Putin. Let's let's bring

this back. Let's streamline this." But

there's a bit of baffle, isn't there?

because you had this lendley scheme.

It's they the US did it in the Second

World War to help Britain. Uh they said,

"Look, we'll talk about paying it back

down the line." Um and Ukraine never

really sort of jumped on it. They sort

of trusted America, I think, with um the

conventional routes they took, but

certainly if you look back at the Biden

era and how they helped Ukraine, you

talk to Ukrainians, they'll say, "Well,

yeah, it's great, but it was too slow,

too infrequent, and that's why we are

where we are." If you had given us the

weapons we'd asked for in January 2022,

if you had imposed the sanctions we

demanding on Moscow to put it off from

invading in January 2022, we wouldn't be

here. There was a hope at the start of

this year that Donald Trump would be a

change in tone and approach. Uh and I

think as he loses patience with Vladimir

Putin, perhaps that hope is reignited.

We're going to turn now to another side

of diplomacy and I'm really pleased to

say that Lee is joining us from Stoke on

Trent. Thanks for joining us, Lee. I

understand you're a veteran. That's one

of the reasons that you're getting in

touch with us today.

Yeah, that's right. I um I served

throughout the 1990s when the Bosnian

conflict the ex Yugoslavia and um I'm

really frustrated about the whole

situation with the UN and I wanted to

ask Ukraine cast firstly why do Russia

get a veto? Why why is the aggressor

allowed to prevent supporting action? I

think Lee's probably expressing a

frustration there that a lot of people

feel actually when they look at what's

happening at the UN. James, what's the

answer?

Well, I mean, the answer is that the

likes of Russia, the US, China, the UK,

France are founding members of the

United Nations, Lee. So, you know, these

were the strongest nations at the end of

the Second World War and they were able

to say, right, we will form the United

Nations. we will be a part of it. But on

these terms, we will get the power uh of

veto. We've seen America use its own

veto to protect and support Israel with

the war in the Middle East. But you

know, it is ultimately, isn't it, it's a

global platform where the premise is

that all sides will have their say. And

it's been a source of huge frustration

for Kev and its European allies. when

you see uh you know senior Russian

officials uh justify the continued

invasion, you see um uh you see its

allies back it up in that kind of

sentiment. Um but that that is that is

the chessboard that that the United

Nations is formed upon. Um but yes it's

not without frustration is a

and that disconnect when you see the

difference between what can happen at

the UN General Assembly where there can

be this sort of condemnation of Russian

aggression and uh reaffirmation of

Ukrainian sovereignty and then it gets

to the security council and that becomes

diluted because of Russia.

Yeah. And if we're talking about

legalities of war, you know, you can,

you know, if we talk about, you know,

Russia's invasion is often called

illegal. Well, it's because it's not

within the confines of a of a UN

resolution or or a vote by the Security

Council. For example, Ukraine will say,

"Well, we're in self-defense." So, that

is legal. But, yeah, I think I think

that's why you're frustrated, right,

Lee? You're kind of you're seeing sort

of the power of uh of the vote, the

power of veto

um fail to sort of halt this full-scale

invasion in military means. But of

course the world is still wary of of

Russia's nuclear power as well and that

as as ever has played a huge part in

this as well.

Um from serving in in the early '9s and

um reading some of the the UN charter

and understanding that one of the the

key things in that's written in the

charter is about um respecting and

allowing other countries their

sovereignty. And what the Russian um

military have done is invaded another

another European country's sovereign

ground and that's just been let to

slide. I think the same sort of thing

with as you were saying before with

what's happening in Gaza. The the

Americans have vetoed any sort of um

restrictions. But what's the point in

having United Nations if they can't

actually get out there and put a police

in force in it? I think from talking to

a lot of veterans when um the Ukraine

was first invaded and even the feeling

now it it just feels like the bully is a

prefect and the prefect doesn't get

checked and unfortunately it just means

that lots of people have lost their

lives lost their home and ultimately

lost their lives.

Lee, thank you so much for your

question. Good to have you with us on

Ukraine Cast.

Thank you. Cheers, Lee.

Thank you.

As Lee mentioned there, he was a member

of a peacekeeping force and deploying a

peacekeeping force is actually one of

the responsibilities of the UN Security

Council. And that's the subject of our

next question from An Marie and she sent

it to us on Discord. I keep hearing how

Russia will categorically refuse to

accept any foreign peacekeeping force on

Ukrainian soil. Can anyone explain to me

how Russia can possibly call the shots

on the future of Ukraine security as it

remains a sovereign country and no part

of Ukraine is democratically recognized

as Russian? It's highly concerning that

Russia already appears to consider

Ukraine as having no independent

political or militaristic agency

separately to Russia. So why, James, are

international forces in Ukraine like

such a red line for Russia when it comes

to any deal at all?

Well, Russia doesn't want to have too

much trouble in keeping hold of the

territory it's taken. Um, there's no

evidence suggesting that Vladimir

Putin's ambitions have been diluted in

any way. It's the military reality that

has forced him to reassess. that he

doesn't want well a well-trained

collection of Western troops, not least

America

to have boots on the ground in Ukraine

after a ceasefire is agreed. Europe and

Ukraine is saying well we'll be the one

Ukraine will be the one to decide that

and we'll decide if um you know if we

want to send them if Ukraine asks for

it. But it's America that is the portal

here. If Putin can impress enough his

demands uh coupled with Donald Trump's

impatience to end this war, then those

kind of conditions could gather pace.

And I think that is why Europe and

Ukraine is working so hard to kind of

just keep momentum with Donald Trump.

They're working so hard to try and get

anything out of him uh as Russia

continues

and they come up against somebody in

this case Putin who um whose demands are

so intractable. I think because they are

so rooted in his ideology and ideology

is something very difficult to fight

against because you know it's so for him

it's it's at the core of his vision for

Russia and for the postsviet world

but it feels like a concession right you

remember when he said oh we'll we'd like

complete control of four provinces

I mean that that's land he hasn't got

close to taking but if you if you as you

say don't backtrack you say it enough

this maximus you know we've seen Steve

Wickoff the US senior envoy start to

repeat it earlier on to the horror of of

of Kiev, it starts to feel like, okay,

we'll just take these four provinces.

It's the illusion of a back of a of a

concession and it's not

of a compromise. Yeah,

there has been a lot of discussion over

the past few weeks about the commitment

of NATO members to defend each other.

But what about Russia's commitment to

defend its allies? Well, we've had this

question in from Tim, who asks, "What

would the ramifications be if NATO

invokes Article 5 against Bellarus

rather than Russia?" In the light of

Russian drones entering Poland from

Barus or if there was a similar future

incursion, do Russia and Bellarus have

defensive treaties? Laura?

Um, okay. So, let's explore this for a

second. Um, we're speculating, but say

that um uh drones are launched from

Barus and NATO countries deem it um an

act of aggression that requires a quick

reaction. So what they could do first of

all is trigger article 4 as Estonia did

a couple of weeks ago when um uh Russian

jets made an incursion into its

airspace. Article 4 basically just um

means that NATO members are called in

for an urgent consultation. Now, if they

then decided to escalate this to article

five, which as we know is um you know

the mutual assistance um clause, this

still wouldn't mean automatic war

because even article 5 leaves it up to

members to decide in what way to

respond. And also, let's just remember

that only once has article 5 been called

and that was after 911 when when the US

required um uh the assistance of its

allies. Um

what would happen if NATO um then

attacked Barus? Um what it would be very

cautious um to do so because of the

incredibly close ties between Barus and

Russia. They have maintained the closest

ties um um out of all the former Soviet

um countries um and they have a mutual

defense pact as well. In theory this

could trigger um uh a reaction from

Russia defending its ally. In reality,

you know, it's it's always the same

question. Would Russia really want to

enter a direct confrontation with NATO

or vice versa?

But there is an agreement like on paper

between the two countries to

Yes. But but as always, I mean, it's

it's open to interpretation because it's

um I think it talks about um you know,

proportionate response to any

aggression. So again, it it's a gray

area because nobody wants to

accidentally end up dragged into any

sort of

they commit to taking appropriate

political, military, and other measures

in response to any threats to the

security of either country or the union

state as a whole. What do they mean by

union state, Laura? Um the union state

is this deep partnership that Barus and

Russia have which is made up of uh

bilateral treaties and agreements. And

um

I think I if if um you consider how much

Vladimir Putin has invested in trying to

restore what he sees as lost influence

and lost territory, the collapse of the

Soviet Union, I doubt it very much that

NATO would want to test Moscow's resolve

when it came to coming to Barus's aid.

It's where Russian troops train. It's

where missiles are launched. It's where

Russia la first launched a full-scale

invasion when they advanced to our south

to Kev. You know, those relationships

have not just suddenly evaporated.

And I don't think anything will ever be

launched from Bellarus without direct

Russian involvement. So again, that

would mean that Russia has, you know, is

is preparing for the possibility of

retaliation against Barus. So we're back

where we started from.

Well, uh, last week we talked about

assassination attempts. This was also

something that a lot of you were really

interested in, particularly on Vladimir

Putin. Uh, and we think that this might

have inspired this question from Carrie

and Norfick. Hi, Ukraine cast. It's

Carrie from the East of England here.

Conspiracy theories aside, what would

actually happen if and when Putin dies?

Thanks for the podcast. It's always so

informative. Bye. when we were talking

about this question a short time ago and

Laura you said you've spent a long time

considering this very question um I

think I've been uh in debates about um

Putin's potential successor ever since I

started studying Russian 15 years ago so

um so Putin has now been in power for 25

years and uh in over the last couple of

years he amended the constitution to

allow him to remain in power until 2036.

So that's another 11 years for now. So I

don't think the idea of succession is is

um you know sort of at the forefront of

his mind because he very much intends to

stay on himself. Over the years we have

had figures that we've thought were

getting more or less close to him. Um

but they they tend to come and go and

none of them have ever solidified into

somebody you know like a crown prince

type of figure. At the moment, uh, the

possible candidates that we do talk

about, you know, potential successes

are, um, Prime Minister Mikail Mishin,

uh, Security Chief Nikolai Petrushev,

um, Moscow Mayor Serge Sabanin. But

again, will they still be around

tomorrow? Will they have fallen out of

favor? And if nothing else, you know,

they're also, you know, getting on with

age. They're not, you know, in the in

their early 70s like Putin, but they are

in their mid to late 60s. So in 10 years

time when if Putin goes, you know,

there'll also have, you know, be over

Sanin.

I think you always get the impression

that he's surrounding himself with

blackis, no one that could ever

challenge him. You would imagine if you

want to stay in power for a while,

that's what you'd do.

It's quite a binary approach, but when

it's come to rivals, Putin has allegedly

either eliminated them uh or he

certainly promoted them. Uh and we've

seen with his control of the security

forces, the media, um how he's been able

to successfully consolidate his position

and quash descent, um he's, you know,

his issuing of lucrative military

contracts to far-flung places of Russia,

uh have also been able enabled him to

overcome criticisms of the over the

extraordinary human loss um incurred by

his invasion. But I mean, you'll know

more than me, Laura, but the pendulum of

Russian politics, you know, since the

collapse of the Soviet Union, it hasn't

swung much, but you know, the 90s it

swung towards the west catastrophically,

some might argue, for Russia. Then with

Putin, it sort of went away from the

West. Um, there was a fleeting moment

with Medvidev when he got got in the hot

seat where they sort of tried to come

back. But there is no evidence to

suggest that the fall of Putin or the

replacement of Putin would alter things

because we just don't know. But I think

it's certainly wishful thinking and

certainly Kev argues that you know there

are not enough pressures or incentives

for the Russian elite to to reconsider

its full-scale war in Ukraine. But the

fact is the moment the story becomes

bigger in Russia

uh is when the war stops in Ukraine. Is

that what Russian watchers would say,

Laura, that even if Putin goes,

everything will pretty much remain the

same?

Um, I think a lot depends on how he

goes. Um, you know, does he die suddenly

and then there's a power vacuum and the

elite, um, it turns out, um, you know,

it turns out the elite all that they

wanted this entire time was to pull out

of the war and they ended immediately. I

mean, it seems unlikely, but I don't

know. um does he you know go at the end

of a long illness uh during which he's

had time to prepare his succession you

know that will change things as well um

I think what we can assume is that he's

he's not going to go because he's been

voted out

I think in that sense his um when he

does go it will be it will be momentous

and it will be dramatic and it could

land Russia in a potentially more

difficult situation than it even is Now,

I think

thanks so much to you for watching.

We'll be back next week with another

Q&A. So, do keep sending us your

questions. But in the meantime, why

don't you also check out our Ukraine

cast feed wherever you get your BBC

podcasts. See you next time. Bye-bye.

Ukraine cast from BBC News.

[Music]

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
war /wɔːr/ A1	noun - armed conflict between countries or groups
invasion /ɪnˈveɪʒən/ B2	noun - the act of entering a place by force to occupy it
missile /ˈmɪsˌaɪl/ B2	noun - a weapon that is launched and guided to a target
aggression /əˈɡrɛʃən/ C1	noun - hostile or violent behavior towards another
sanctions /ˈsæŋkʃənz/ C1	noun - measures taken to force a country to follow rules, often economic penalties
diplomacy /dɪˈpləʊməsi/ C1	noun - the conduct of relations between nations
conscription /kənˈskrɪpʃən/ C1	noun - mandatory enlistment for military service
mobilization /məʊˌbɪlɪˈzeɪʃən/ C1	noun - the act of preparing and moving troops or resources for war
veto /ˈviːtoʊ/ C1	noun - the power to reject a decision or proposal
negotiation /nɪˌɡəʊʃiˈeɪʃən/ B2	noun - discussion aimed at reaching an agreement
alliance /əˈlaɪəns/ B2	noun - a formal agreement or partnership between countries
security /sɪˈkjʊərəti/ B2	noun - the state of being free from danger or threat
conflict /ˈkɒnflɪkt/ B2	noun - a serious disagreement or fight
peace /piːs/ A2	noun - the absence of war or conflict
pressure /ˈprɛʃər/ B1	noun - force exerted on a surface or someone to act in a certain way
exhausted /ɪɡˈzɔːstɪd/ B1	adjective - extremely tired; lacking energy
oppressive /əˈprɛsɪv/ C1	adjective - unjustly inflicting hardship or restriction; harsh
concession /kənˈsɛʃən/ C1	noun - a thing that is granted, especially in response to demands