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all the research that I've seen

especially the last kind of three years

is what it all points to is that boring

and basic stuff like emails like

responses

summarization very simple data analysis

across the board those are in the top

five use cases everywhere so the real

Roi at the moment for me is just giving

people back time and that's a beautiful

thing because like I said we can't buy

time time is finite that's kind of the

big the big promise of

AI you're listening to how to make a

leader a leadership development podcast

from Big think plus where we take the

best ideas from the biggest Minds in

Learning and Development and distill

them into actionable insights I'm your

host Hannah Bieber today we're talking

about Ai and specifically how to use AI

in the context of learning now I'm

pretty sure this is not the first

podcast episode you will have listened

to on this topic IPC but I'm confident

that you'll want to listen to this one

today I have the pleasure of speaking

with a learning technology expert

extraordinaire who lives breeds and

works in all things learning Tech if

there's a tool out there on the market

that you're curious about then chances

are he's likely tried it Russ Stevenson

has spent nearly two decades in the L &d

learning technology space working for

corporations such as trainline and Tesco

and currently as the chief learning

strategist with steel these thoughts his

company where he advises L&D teams on

how to improve their performance with

technology and AI I'm a big fan of his

newsletter which is packed full of

insights on the latest and greatest in

learning Tech and tools and also plenty

of memes in today's conversation Ross

will share his thoughts on the best ways

to be thinking about and using AI tools

in the context of learning he'll be

sharing some tips on the best ways to

use chat GPT as well as some of his

favorite tools in the space right now

let's get straight into

it Ross so great to have you on the

podcast today uh you are somewhat of a

learning technology wizard so I would

love to hear how you got here and if you

could walk us through you know the last

10 or so years of your

career yeah firstly thank you for having

me lovely to have a conversation and um

yeah it sounds like my superhero origin

story which I'm probably going to

remember very differently every time

someone asked me for it so the todr as I

say to a lot of people is I have been in

the hr/ DBS for about 17 years never

planned to be here my whole education is

in technology I was supposed to be

software engineer building products and

all that stuff over in cicon Valley that

didn't happen I kind of fell into this

industry and it was kind of a strange

marriage of I think very quickly I

understood there was a real lack of

digital technology understanding in this

industry digital learning wasn't really

a big thing kind of 12 years ago when I

kind of first dropped into it you know

now it has been all the range and um the

last 10 years in particular have really

just been focused on L&D from a

technology perspective so what I mean by

that is I've had really odd role titles

and roles that you won't consider

traditional L&D but fundamentally what

they focus on is saying how do we

transform what we know as workplace n&d

which for most people with this kind of

really strange quasy education model

that kind of doesn't really work in the

workplace because of how we live and how

we work and how do we start to use

different types Technologies whether

that's platforms whether that is

different tools that we could bring in

to actually help people move more

towards performance so I know we talk

about learning a lot as in the industry

but the reality is when you're working

for big you know 5500 companies the end

goal is performance it is the bottom

line it is getting that Roi so a lot of

my time was spent on building digital

systems Building Products that were able

to let people get the knowledge they

needed to perform nowadays I'm on my own

so I'm solo I I do my own thing I think

the uh popular term is solo founder that

I see on uh on LinkedIn so I have my own

business I do my own thing basically

what that means is uh for those of you

who may know already I have a newsletter

about learning Tech that I've had for

years that

thankfully people subscribe to they

engage with they pay me for which is

great so in a weird way it sounds odd

for my job today but it's fundamentally

taking all those years of knowledge

helping people to understand how they

can apply that and then I also work with

companies as well specifically on we've

got Tech how do we acquire Tech what's

the right Tech how do we use that

intelligently obviously intelligently

being the key word there because anyone

can buy Tech but actually buying the

right stuff and use it intelligently is

the biggest thing so I said tldr but I

wasn't very much tldr but basically 10

Years Learning Tech making it work for

people and basically just helping people

unlock the um the power of it I love

that and thank you for for sharing I I

love the full story I do love that you

mentioned you never really intended to

end up specifically in the L &d industry

and this is a conversation that I'm

having over and over with multiple

guests it's always interesting to hear

how people got here and I love how you

talked about using technology for like

connecting people and connectedness

especially as you said technology is so

overwhelming right now I think it can

make people feel isolated you know we've

had a a podcast conversation about

multiple Generations in the workplace as

well I think that can have a part to

play as well so I think just grasping

that understanding of technology and how

we can use it you know harness the power

of technology to make ourselves better

in our jobs and also to connect each

other is something that I love that that

you just mentioned what is an opinion or

perhaps a hot take that you hold around

learning technology that is maybe a

little little bit controversial Bo I I

don't know if it's controversial I just

think much to kind of what I was saying

earlier on I just think there's a

surreal misunderstanding and underuse of

what I would call intelligent digital

technology use I think we have so many

apps we have so many different bits of

Technology but people barely scratch the

surface it still as sounds me all these

years later where I'll go into companies

and have you know really powerful tools

like a Microsoft teams or a slack but

they just use it to message each other

they have no idea about the capabilities

beyond that and I think for all of the

technology that's available all of the

money that's spent out the industry from

a tech perspective L&D is worth about

400 billion I think the last time I saw

it is that I met very few people that

really understand how to leverage it to

help them I find more people that cause

himself problems with the tech and blame

the tech rather than trying to spend the

time to understand the tech so um I

still think and that for me really

hasn't changed over the 10 years is that

what I class as digital intelligence is

severely lacking in the hatron L&D world

and the answer to that would be I think

a lot of people have always gone well

text not my thing I don't think you can

say that anymore because the world is

run on digital Tech just saying Tech is

not my thing or I can't use Tech is

it's not the way forward unfortunately

as brutal as that is so well that's why

I'm very excited to have you on today I

personally have been a subscriber to

Russell's newsletter for a while and I

know on LinkedIn you share really great

informational videos as well kind of

walking through new technologies that

you're evaluating and using and kind of

sharing stories around how best to apply

them in L &d setting so I think it's

going to be a great conversation today

I'm I'm excited

what is a common misconception about Ai

and L &d that you'd maybe like to clear

up oh oh my how much time do we have I

mean that's a I mean there's many things

there's many things I I I really think

we're in this I don't know Matrix like

environment at the moment where I feel

like everyone and their dog is an AI

strategist at the moment like trying to

give me some kind of expertise or or

something like that I think the thing

for me that really stands out is to kind

of clear up is that it's much more than

tools I think people really get

themselves lost in this oh my God it's

like a million AI tools and I have to

know how to use this this and this and

the center of it for me is really about

it's a new framework really for the kind

of next stage of whatever you want to

call this error is that we've kind of

had this one framework for the last

let's say 10 15 years which is web 2

where you can read information you can

build your own information online and

then you know some super nerd won't call

this web free but if we class it as the

kind of web free version is that now

you're able to have context and have

conversations with information and data

and I think in that is there is a

philosophy of actually understanding how

does that stuff work and why is it

useful we're getting so excited about

all of this stuff we don't really ask

the questions of well what could be

unintended consequences like where could

this go what can we learn from stuff so

I think the biggest misconception is

it's just thinking as tools it's just

thinking like I'll go off and I'll learn

how to use chat GPT and uh I can use AI

it's mad really in my opinion it's like

the shiny new toy you know that's in the

room at Christmas time and you just want

to and you're neglecting you know the

trampoline in your backyard that is you

know that you for years and works well

so with these new AI tools and like you

said people are kind of seeing the tools

I've got a per these new tools and then

I'm good to go and I'm going to be you

know advancing ahead of my career what

would you say is the biggest mindset

shift the L &d Pros should think about

as they start integrating Ai and new

learning technology into their work yeah

I think the biggest mindset shift is

more going to be

around why we using this stuff like lot

of anything L&D in most Industries is

kind of still being product minded and

saying you know what are the problems

where actually trying to solve and you

know I make fun of this online a lot and

people who see my stuff will see that I

probably share way too many memes piing

fun of this that I have conversation

with companies is yeah they there's too

much of just chasing tools it's just

like oh my God I've seen this new tool

and I I'll use other toour now but

there's so many companies that I work

with that they just don't know the

problems they don't know the problems

they're trying to fix they basically got

a tool and they're trying to find a

problem for it which is the worst case

scenario to be in so the mindset shift

for me is understanding that this whole

AI era right now is actually more about

Behavior change it's more around I

mentioned before about the framework of

if we kind of Imagine well even imagine

we look at the last 20 25 years the way

we've kind of looked at the world is

through Google search so it's become a

verb Google we say we're going to Google

we're going to find information we're

going to do that and now in the last few

years we kind of mve to this framework

of oh my God I'm going to converse with

information now I'm going to ask

questions we're going to have natural

conversation that is a huge shift and

we're having it at work as well where

it's not just saying I'm going to go off

or build a course on my own or

researches on this own I'm going to have

a conversation with an entity that

allows me to kind of draw these insights

that I wouldn't have been able to have

done 18 to 24 months ago so there's a

far bigger behavioral shift in

understanding that this is a new way of

working a new framework of how do we

create information how do we gather

information how do we simulate

information and then how do we put that

into action but like most things in life

is I don't think that's really seen yet

for a lot of companies what they see are

tools what they don't understand is if

you give people a bunch of tools and you

don't give them the right behaviors and

take them on the journey you will suffer

for that later on so it may feel like

now and you see the headlines like you

know AI saves me x amount of time or

this productive it's like it's really

interesting to me how do they measure

that like how do they measure

productivity how are they measuring all

those things so I think the the biggest

mindset shift is just getting around at

the fact that this is a real Behavior

change and behavior change takes a lot

of time and companies want this change

to be in a couple of weeks because they

see all the big headlines of ai ai ai

but actually you know to really kind of

take advantage of it you're probably

looking at years it's not a sexy thing

to say but in reality if you're looking

to get the most out of it and you're

looking to say how does my company move

from a multi-million dollar company to a

billion dollar company you know that's a

probably multiple year multiple decade

journey I think that's really the same

for these generative AI tools at the

moment because a lot of them are still

kind of very gimmicky they're kind of

fun but it you still see for most people

most organizations it's really hard for

them to kind of place and say well is

this actually helping us or is this just

kind of the the cool thing right now but

can it help us you know many many years

down the line so yeah the biggest

mindset shift is is definitely looking

at that treat it as more of a behavior

change project rather than saying this

is just a training project where we're

going to get a tool we're going to train

people on this for two weeks and then

they're going to go off and they're

going to be Superstars and the company's

going to be very productive that's 100%

not going to happen and I think a lot of

that is false flag and and I see data

online already where I'll see people

saying yes you know we've had a thousand

people use this tool that's not really a

metric that you want to invest in the

metric you want to invest in is saying

you know chat GPT saved me $10 million

in two years those are the kind of

things you want to look at that we don't

talk about so yeah in some look at it as

a behavior and change project that

you're part of versus saying we're just

going to train people on a new tool cuz

they are new tools but they're part of

newer technology that the world is now

experiencing so there's a difference

there as opposed to what we're currently

used

to I think it's interesting the point

you make around it being kind of a

longer term project and mindset shift I

think I'm guilty of the shiny new toy

syndrome almost I know what in our prior

conversation I had asked you and propose

a question today around the idea of give

me a case study who's using AI tool

who's doing it well and you kind of

responded to me that we don't really

have that yet because it is such a work

in progress so I do think it's

interesting that we have these new tools

and we think that they're going to kind

of work immediately it's this Silver

Bullet that fixes all and streamlines

all processes and improves you know the

learning process so I think I'm guilty

of that mindset too yeah and it's really

hard right because look Roi is different

for everyone in terms of their context

so and I say this to people all the time

it's like for some companies having a

tool that helps people craft better

emails could be hugely beneficial for

them or helps them craft better copy in

what they're working on as a marketing

team be hugely beneficial for them but

that same context based on a company of

10,000 people that's f500 that works in

the financial industry that's not going

to help them so their use case and their

context and their Roi is different so

the thing I look for particularly in

case studies is

saying it's looking at something

incredibly specific in that's had that

marginal gain and I think you'll find

lots of stuff at the moment especially

in the l andd space where it's like

content content content and there's

little things where it's like you know

review my content and do this they

they're great you know contextually for

that but I mean when we talk about case

studies it's kind of like I'm looking at

like a huge company that's kind of done

the last five years we looked at this

and these are the things that we've

improved and this is the how tangible AI

was in there I from what I see in my

research I just I don't think there is

anything that I would look at and saying

is kind of like high level right now but

then again I don't expect that because

the technology is so new it's kind of

one of those things where people hate

when I say it's like yeah well come and

talk in 10 years time a lot of

Technologies now we can talk about at

this moment because they've been around

for so long and we can see the success

like you know you got only got look at

streaming like everyone laughed at

streaming when it first came out like

everyone was on Netflix who like who are

these people they're not going to do

this now it's the biggest thing but you

can't see that at the time it kind of

takes all that time to say oh my God you

know this works and it it works really

well and these are the case studies to

to say that but it's really all based on

people's point of view your context is

again very personal in how does this

help you and I know people that feel

like they have been transformed in some

ways I'm using these tools which is

great but it's it's it's I say it's very

personal on that as opposed to

I have my business hat on and I think

about Roi in performance increases in

terms of actual monetary gain curious if

from people that you've worked with if

you do have any anecdotal stories or

just examples of how a client or a

company you've worked with has used an

AI tool effectively and maybe you know

we're not seeing the ROI yet but what

are some of the positive impacts that

you've seen or an example of how that's

really been put in practice Yeah I

suppose there's a couple me some of them

are very what I call boring and basic

however I think boring and basic is is

probably very hot and very sexy right

now because let's be frank we'd rather

AI do the stuff we don't really want to

do and to allow us to do the exciting

stuff rather than whatever reason people

seem to want AI to do the exciting stuff

like the writing and the building and

then what what gets there for us whereas

I'm more like no get it to automate you

know responses for lead generation or

get it to look at how is it going to

improve your process in creating user

stories as product team or a tech team

or answering support queries get it to

do those things so then you can go off

and do those other components so in

terms of specifics I think this one I

can't name the client but we're just

talking about there so working with

their product team to look at and most

product teams only product people

listening between product and Tech teams

you're always creating these user

stories where it's basically like your

fictional users and how they use the

product and what they want to do now for

these product teams they can build

hundreds of these especially if they're

a huge organization with huge products

and that can be incredibly time

consuming to do and you've got to take a

bunch of notes from interviews and

whatnot and structure them and turn them

into this for me that is something

that's kind of pretty ripe for these

generative AI tools at the moment

because it's one specific task you could

template that and you could just

basically say here's a template of what

good looks like and then what we're

going to do is basically give you all on

notes this is what good looks like this

is the template create this for us and

and then you can create these user

stories which sounds really small but in

that circumstance that team was able to

save like eight hours over the course of

a week as a team so it doesn't sound

huge but for them that's like wow you

know time is money you you can get more

money you can't buy more time you know

another one with a different Tech Team

where looking at ticketing support so

most companies have a ticket and support

system where a user will raise a ticket

to say oh I'm locked out of my laptop or

I can't use the printer on site and

usually there's like a system somewhere

that kind of helps filter that it gets

scheduled over to an engineer you got to

wait to the engineer to come back but

you can put a first layer of an AI

assistant in there that basically just

says well am I able to deal with this

query based on a knowledge base what

I've discovered which is quite

interesting is that most of the time a

lot of the queries that come into these

people can be solved by the user they're

really simple things like password reset

about using that certain application or

request at all you know I think in one

case there was like something like 65%

of requests could have just been

answered by the user it was just them

being lazy and not looking for

information your computer I know that's

exactly have you just restart have you

the on andof button 100% yeah so I think

time is a very interesting metric in all

of this stuff because people look for

like the real grandiose use cases like

they want to see you know one person

businesses and all this rubbish and AI

running everything I'm not really

impressed by that I'm more impressed by

well we're already overloaded how do we

kind of help us take some of the stuff

away that so repetitive really kind of

bugs us down and allow us to do the

human stuff companies I worked with

where we've looked at doing stuff for

performance reviews and performance

reviews Bots that helps coach managers

and gives them resources to help prepare

them for performance reviews and then

helps them hopefully anyway give a

better quality performance review

experience same with onboarding as well

so onboarding at a lot of companies can

be really choppy but for small companies

to kind of really struggle because

there's usually not a lot of resource to

focus on onboarding but you can

introduce kind of AI enabled components

like a AI buddy that basically helps new

starters and managers alongside those

processes in terms of getting them the

right information at the right time

getting questions answering quick things

you know just real lwh hanging fruit I

think one more bigger one and it's it's

not one of mine it's a public one from

an Australian mining company called BHP

mining where um I was reading something

one of their team put out about they

were looking at their leadership

framework and this a couple of years ago

and they were basically saying you know

they pay McKenzie it was 1.6 million

Aussie dollars to come and do a

leadership framework for them and they

were like well why don't we just stick

it into chat GPT and say chat GPT this

is our framework this what we're trying

to achieve this is where we are to today

and just use it as a thought partner and

that team in that context they were

saying you know not everything was great

but they were really impressed by most

of the stuff it came out with and they

were looking at and saying well you know

what actually we could take a lock from

here and then take that into other

humans and then use this to start doing

stuff ourself and what was interesting

about that is that something that would

have cost a company $1.6 million to go

and get an outsourced company and

there's no guarantee

that actually they're going to get what

they want they could actually bring that

inh housee and use tools to say well how

do we keep this close to us and what

we're doing and have more control over

that and give us different points of

view and help us build structures and as

simulate best practices from other

companies to do that all the research

that I've seen especially the last kind

of three years is what it all points to

is that boring and basic stuff like

emails like

responses summarization

very simple data analysis across the

board you know you go to Gallup McKenzie

BCG Harvard all the reports say the same

thing those are in the top five use

cases everywhere and that makes sense

because if we get that stuff done and we

can do it to a decent level then we can

go do the human stuff which is more like

I've got more time now to actually go

speak to a stakeholder and really

understand their pain points and have a

conversation and build a better product

instead of being drowned

in 400 emails from the business around

all of these components so I the real

Roi at the moment for me in these use

cases and kind of little mini case

studies is just giving people back time

I that's a beautiful thing because like

I said we can't buy time time is finite

so for me anyway that's kind of the big

the big promise of AI I'm not so

concerned about other components of

automating my life and being boring as

hell and just sitting around and

watching the world go by

[Music]

chat GPT we've already referen a couple

times that we definitely cannot have

this conversation without digging a

little bit deeper into chat GPT it's a

tool that everyone has access to and

everyone has used I'm sure in some

element in both their professional and

working life yeah so question for you to

get a little bit more into the

nitty-gritty how should l& Pros be using

chat GPT effectively and what are some

of your guidance on best tips and tricks

to effectively prompt chat GPT my first

controversial point would be do you need

to use chat GPT I would say before any

tool go figure out your problem so I

have to say that and doing what I do

like Define your problem and then figure

out if AI is a tool that can help you

with that if you do decide and you go

down that road and it is Chap GPT so I

think this is Ed andd perspective

what's really obvious is content

creation is the hot sexy thing for

people in L&D with any of these tools

for me that's kind of like 2% of its

power and unless you really understand

how to prompt it and you've really got

kind of a clear mind of what you want to

achieve what success looks like you're

not going to get a good result and I

think we've all seen stuff online where

people are like I can create a course in

2 minutes and blah blah blah like yeah

but let's be honest 99 .5% of them utter

crap because no one puts any thinking

into that so my first thing would be

just kind of move away from content

creation a little bit and then I look at

other components of so in my own

practice what I found very beneficial is

how do I use it as a a thought partner

or a critical thinking partner so what I

mean by that is you know I write a lot I

look at a newsletter as a product I

build a product every week that goes out

to like four and a half 5,000 people I

spend 20 hours on it a week I am lost in

my own mind half the time so to get a

critical view from something else that

is not me or a devil's advocate or to

challenge my ideas or just say are these

3,000 words just a bunch of rubbish that

I've done while drinking too much tea or

is there something in there that's going

to help someone yeah like that is

profoundly helpful and I look at that

from many different types of work so

companies that I've worked with where

people in sales teams as an example when

they're responding to proposals and I'm

saying well if you're not too sure how

to respond to an email drop it into chat

GPT and basically look I got this email

here's a scenario here's what I think

you know give me Devil's Advocate what

are the unintended consequences if I say

x what am I missing here so this is

beyond using this tool for creation it's

all about challenging you it's hit and

miss sometimes I must say sometimes

you'll look at it and it's just like oh

God that's that's rubbish but sometimes

if you structure what you're saying I

that's the real key thing here you still

need to have really good Clarity of

thought and structure your writing you

can call it a design partner or in L

andd and say you know I'm building this

Workshop or I'm working on this program

here's what I'm considering doing what

else could I consider you know these are

the challenges or these are the pain

points there just a lot of use in there

for me with that and I think for me

personally I use it a lot for that just

as a sounding board the other two I

would say is research system so I say

chap GPT e for this I think perlex is

probably better than chat GPT in that

domain and research as in so there's two

fold so there's a very simple stuff of

here's a PDF report summarize that for

me that's cool but I think the other end

of it is that you let's say I do a lot

of work in when I'm doing keynote

speeches I'm basically given a thesis on

a topic and what I want to understand is

what the pros and cons of that thesis so

what already exists in the world to do

that and I think as a research assistant

again I found these tools really really

useful so when I'm going to giv these

Keynotes that I'm going to have a

balanced view of where might I have my

own biases and where's the stuff that

kind of makees sense and data agrees

with or you know what am I dubiously

speculating on I don't have data kind of

to actually back up with and using it as

a research assistant to compile that is

you know again I'm just amazed by that

consistently in terms of speed quality

structure and actually how that helps me

build better products in what I'm doing

and then the final one would be around

you data analysis like most people that

operate in their own businesses I have

loads of data touch points whether

that's from financials engagement all

these kind of different things the

ability for me to take any kind of type

of surveys or CSV files or whatever and

drop that into these tools and have a

conversation and just say you know well

I'm looking to do this what can you see

here in terms of a pattern or I want to

get a sentiment analysis bunch of data

that I've just taken from a thousand

people you know help me get to that

quickly that saves me time I thought

partnering research system data analysis

and then my bonus one would be

definitely using it as a skills coach as

a foundational level to try and kind of

help you role plays but role play of

chat GPT in terms of I'm trying to learn

this new skill I want to practice this

skill help me do that I really like the

multiple personas that you presented

there for track GPT you know moving away

from content creation but a thought

partner a research assistant a data

analyst just like an interesting way of

thinking about it so thank you for

sharing so I have noticed from some of

your work I love the quote where you

mentioned that with the current state of

AI use for work is like giving a Ferrari

to a 5-year-old so where some people

don't have the skills experience or know

how to use it effectively so what are

some of the biggest mistakes that L&D

professionals specifically are making

when it comes to using these new Ai and

learning technology tools yeah the

biggest thing for me is not

understanding the fundamentals so what I

mean by that is that we spoke earlier on

that I look at these as more than just

tools what we've basically introduced

into our framework as a new technology

now yes I am a tech geek but I think the

best way to leverage and maximize tools

from a technology stat is to understand

at a very base level how does it work I

think this is even more important with

generative AI because we have this

caveat of

hallucinations where these tools can

make up stuff because they're basically

looking at patterns and they're creating

their content from that and we have to

just recognize that it will lie that's

part of the package it's a feature not a

bug until these tools improve too many

companies ignore that and actually you

should embrace that you should

understand that that's going to improve

your use of it and the way it improves

your use is understanding when it's the

right time to use it for a project and

when it's not to look at the sensitivity

level and then for the user how do they

not just at work but in life how do they

create the behaviors and skills that

helps them spot stuff like you know when

we talk about misinformation or fake

news or any of that stuff I mean you

know look they were recording this it's

election day as we've spoken about in

America I've never known a time over the

last few years where you know

misinformation fake news generated

pictures videos from AI have been so big

and we're going to have a struggle in

organizations in people actually

understanding that when is the right

time to use this stuff based upon

limitations we just have to recognize

that in all things in life there is

risks and there is limitations but that

comes down to just getting clear on the

fundamentals and there is I say that is

I work with too many teams where the

first question is how do I use this tool

no no no we need to go back and think

about how do you understand what gener

of AI is then say okay I can then go and

make the right decisions so when my

company does give us AI tools I can be

clear on here's where it's going to be

really helpful for me here's where it

could be harmful but here is how as I as

L&D Pro can make smart decisions on

outputs how do I evaluate them how do I

challenge them how do I have what ch for

and I don't think that's a big task but

the fundamentals of that I'm literally

talking about you could go and watch a

half hour YouTube video and you're

sorted as a beginner as an everyday

human with this stuff but my personal

opinion is that will 10x your output

with performance in these tools and I

see too many people making mistakes

because they don't have that knowledge

so they'll make mistakes in the

potential of the tools they'll make

mistakes in how they're deployed tools

and I think in the the L &d and HR Arena

we deal with too much sensitive topics

for that to happen we really need to

have people who have a clearer

understanding on yeah it might be great

to build a conversation of all but

actually is that going to be the right

thing for us to do is that going to help

us deliver on what we want to do or are

there going to be risks there that we

can't take on due to the sensitivity of

that information so for me it's really

just getting those fundamentals if you

can get the fundamentals it will help

you out so

much do you have any any other guidance

or maybe like a framework um with teams

that you've worked with to ensure that

this you know for example we have a team

that doesn't really use any AI tools or

learning technology tools they want to

introduce new tools how would you ensure

that that experience is positive and and

not disruptive so my view would be it's

it's really wider than the L&D teams and

I think this is probably and people

listen to this probably experien all the

time where very usually and I've seen

this from the last 20 years is that

you're at a company something new

happens a new bit of tech happens and

the company just decides that the L&D

team needs to make everyone use it and

that the L&D team on its own is going to

change all of these pre-built behaviors

they're going to change the culture and

they're going to embed this tour and

everything's going to happen

unfortunately the reality is that's not

true it's a whole organizational effort

and what happens is that to get the

right new behaviors you need to have

that right environment for it and L pays

apart obviously they are a mechanism in

delivering to people and helping people

with that but going back to our earlier

point there is a huge behavioral and

mindset shift in this technology and

these tools so my advice would I suppose

actually be twofold it would be looking

at you getting clear on the fundamentals

but also making sure you're connected

into the wi of organization in how are

we as an organization approaching this

as a change project so together we can

make this

successful cuz my hot take would really

be you're not going to be successful as

NY on your own like just going out there

whatever you want to do putting out a

bunch of training programs or upskilling

programs on this one tour it's not going

to make people as confident or as

competent as you might think it will

with you alone but you in conjunction

with senior Leaders with tech teams with

all the different teams that are part of

that environment that you're trying to

change can definitely make a difference

but I think L&D as the mechanism alone

it's really difficult and it's really

difficult because outside of this

conversation but you know most companies

look at L&D teams as are nice to have

rather than lack a legit serious

function that contributes to business

change in that so we're also dealing

with that in terms of huge

transformational technology being

delivered by a space in a company that

people don't really give the credit that

the industry believes it should do and

then wanting that change to happen in

and I always say you know senior exx

always want you to do stuff in a week

that needs a year to actually happen so

it's really difficult for that so yes

you can help yourself get clear on the

fundamentals but like any good L&D team

in my opinion should do is about how do

you connect with other parts who your

organization how do you build

relationships so when you do go do this

you know adoption program with training

or whatnot with that one team who

doesn't really seem open to it it

doesn't just end there if you just go

and do okay we're going to do a half day

tool training that's not really going to

change anything like it might some

people might I there some nice ideas but

very few people people act upon what

they actually experience in those

sessions so how do you make sure that

that actually is embedded by working

with these people and looking at this

whole thing as more of a you know change

transformation program which for a lot

of companies actually big companies you

know change in transformation programs

are three to five years and I hly

appreciate that is really really

difficult that is not going to be an

easy ask but my whole kind of focus this

message is that don't feel like in L&D

it lives and dies around AI adoption

being successful because of you because

it really doesn't it's also down to many

other people in the organization being

part of that process and what I would

say is the the companies that do well

with this stuff are that they adopt it

all across the field so one example of

that would be and you can find it online

on open ai's website is they did a case

study with Mna who obviously were one of

the organizations that worked on the

covid vaccine

and you know they had chat GPT for a

year but they got the whole company

involved in terms of behavior change in

terms of training in terms of embedding

that you know everyone was bought into

it and they've had the success that

they've shown in that customer story

because everyone was part of that

Journey it wasn't just open AI worked

with the L&D team to try and convince

the rest of the business to do it the

rest of the business was on board and uh

and doing that so I I would certainly

say look in L&D what we're responsible

for is of course helping people improve

their skills improve performance you're

not going to be the singular Agent of

Change in terms of bringing people into

you know the AI world and I think if you

go down that route you're not you're not

going to have a lot of success I think

focus on the things that you do really

well partner with other people to

strengthen those areas where you can say

how can we help people uh adopt this I

think that goes really nicely with your

thesis that the future is human powered

and not AI first so on that topic would

love to hear what are the top three

human skills that you think are

essential to develop in such an AI

forward workplace yes the main thing for

me and some of these are crossover so

you got to have critical thinking for

one I just you know the biggest thing

for me is and I I disagree with a lot of

the stuff online that I see but it's AI

first

and you know getting AI to do this don't

Outsource your thinking thinking makes

you human like it's it is your tool

that's incredibly powerful so critical

thinking is 100% there and alongside

that as well is so I mean people call

this problem solving you okay was

problem solving or kind of like judgment

or decision making there is that my

personal opinion is what makes us really

good in the workforce as humans you can

help use AI to help you with this is

that it's solving problems is

deconstructing problems understanding

how do I fix this thing and doing that

at every stage like I said critical

thinking and this problem solving notion

they do overlap with each other but

there's still different skills where

it's like you could be a critical

thinker but you can suck at solving

problems right you can think all you

want but if you can't actually figure

out how to solve the problem and

construct that you know you're not

really going to go far on that element

and the other side of it and I suppose

this is more like the gun to my head

looking at the kind of free free things

is I'm cheat here a bit is that so I had

an article that I written where I spoke

about this concept of social influence

which I'm cheating here because you can

basically break this down into subskills

of like communication and emotional

intelligence and stuff and that is I say

social influence because like as humans

the way we work is we're a social

Society like we tell stories to each

other that's how we buy into ideas it's

how we share knowledge in that that is

not going to change with AI at all we're

still going to tell stories we still

need people to buy into our ideas to buy

into who we are to be seen and valued

like no AI tool is going to change that

for you like you're not going to get

chat GPT out on your phone to then give

yourself some kind of like social

credibility in a meeting to talk about

who you are and what you do you're going

to need to be able to do that social

influence is a real big part of life

because although people don't like it

you know you do it all the time like

you're trying to show people your

credibility in Industry you're marketing

to people about who you are and your

skills like in an organization you're

doing that when you want a promotion

you're trying to sell people into who

you are and what you're doing and so you

know critical thinking problem solving

and that social influence bit are

incredibly beneficial in terms of you

just being able to operate so which is

why I kind of do venomously disagree

with the the AI first thing that I see

with people because if you go down that

route what happens when everyone else

goes down there you're just going to be

like everyone else so you're just going

to be very much in the same field and

the people in my opinion who I work with

different companies especially at exec

level are they're great critical

thinkers they're great problem solvers

and they are great in Social influence

and I I don't think that will

change this may be a difficult question

because I know you are evaluating and

looking at learning Technologies all day

every day you had to pick a top three

favorite learning technology tools right

now what would they be so I should

preface that I think any technology can

be a learning technology so I don't look

at these specifically in the industry I

cannot not say chat GPT I just think you

know it's good it's good timing for open

I but they were really the ones that

kind of however you want to look to it

got to Market first the other one right

now that I find a lot of benefit in I

think it's great for work and for

research is a tool called notebook LM by

Google which is really just built around

I kind really describe it

like I was a AI soup up version of

notion where it's all focused on data

analysis and reports and research and

colleting notes and looking at thesis in

that so I think just across the board

that's incredibly beneficial obviously

Google was huge they got trillions of

dollars they're going to keep building

those things so that's a pretty safe bet

in what I look at as a great product

versus just a feature and I think

there's a lot of AI tools out there that

are features I think more from the

workplace learning space if you want to

you know get specific I suppose a

company that I I talk to a lot is uh is

Santa so s is a Swedish organization

they're in the learning Tech space but

they're in the AI space as well so

they've also got their own LM tune

they've got Santa Ai and I think they

are on my radar anyway they're the one

of the first companies that's really

come to Market in that space to say how

do we do all this stuff but how do we do

it specifically for work so it's secure

so how do we create assistance how do we

create workflows how to make it really

simple for people to use this at work

because the two I mentioned previously

there's always the call back to oh but

it's going to steal our data oh it's not

restricted oh how do we do this so the

SAR is interesting to me because again

going back to opena chat GPT they seem

to be one of the first ones to Market to

say well we've got an AI tour that is

specifically built for the workforce

that does those things does those things

in a secure manner and gives you a easy

way to do it I'll definitely have to

check out notebook LM I've seen a lot

about it and I'm a fan of notion so

maybe I'll have to check it out to

elevate my data and organizational game

well with that we'll wrap up today's

conversation Ross thank you very much

for your time and insights today I'm

sure our listeners will learn a lot um

and just always fascinating to talk to

someone who's so deeply entrenched and

aware of all going on around learning

and technology so we really really

really appreciate your insights today

well great well thank you for having me

love this chat to you for more from Ross

Stevenson check out his newsletter and

website steal these thoughts as well as

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make sure you subscribe so you never

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another L&D expert thanks for listening

and we'll catch you next time as we

learn how to make a leader

[Music]

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
research /ˈriːsɜːrtʃ/ B2	noun - the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions
summarization /ˌsʌməraɪˈzeɪʃən/ C1	noun - the process of expressing the most important facts or points about something
finite /ˈfaɪnaɪt/ C1	adjective - having limits or bounds
distill /dɪˈstɪl/ C2	verb - to extract the essential meaning or most important aspects of something
actionable /ˈækʃənəbəl/ C1	adjective - able to be done or acted on; having practical value
extraordinaire /ɪkˌstrɔːrdɪˈnɛər/ C2	adjective - outstanding or remarkable
corporations /ˌkɔːrpəˈreɪʃənz/ B2	noun - large companies or groups of companies
strategist /ˈstrætədʒɪst/ C1	noun - a person skilled in planning action or policy
fundamentally /ˌfʌndəˈmentəli/ B2	adverb - in central or primary respects
transform /trænsˈfɔːrm/ B2	verb - to make a thorough or dramatic change in form or appearance
leverage /ˈliːvərɪdʒ/ C1	verb - to use something to maximum advantage
misconception /ˌmɪskənˈsepʃən/ C1	noun - a view or opinion that is incorrect because it is based on faulty thinking
gimmicky /ˈɡɪmɪki/ C1	adjective - designed to attract attention rather than having lasting value
tangible /ˈtændʒɪbəl/ C1	adjective - perceptible by touch; clear and definite; real
anecdotal /ˌænɪkˈdəʊtəl/ C1	adjective - based on personal accounts rather than facts or research
hallucinations /həˌluːsɪˈneɪʃənz/ C2	noun - in AI, when a model produces false or nonsensical information