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in a previous video we hit the streets

of New York to find out what people do

for a living and how they afford to live

there and we came across this man who

used to be in the ship owning business

we turned this moment into a short

social media clip and it got 18 million

views what kind of stuff do you guys do

in New York what was your career ship

owning what really yes you own ships yes

what kind of ships mostly

tankers seriously yeah refined petroleum

product ships and you bought and sold

tankers yes so we found this guy flew to

Road Island and we're sitting down today

with Michael hudner to hear his full

story how much have you done in ship

real estate must have been well over a

billion dollars I mean there's a lot of

money I I'm trying to understand the

transition from going in a desk job into

the distress ship business I had a

passion most people don't actually they

have a lust but they don't have a dream

despite being able to live out his dream

life not everything went as planned do

you have any regrets let me talk about

the loss of my son quickly he became

schizophrenic when he was 19 he died in

a car accid he was a really brilliant

brilliant kid I wouldn't expect my son

to have respected

me if I fold it up on him you don't get

over losing a child but you learn to

live with it a lot of our content is

making money this is what this of course

it hits hits you in the face I if it

doesn't you're up we also take a deep

dive into Michael's views on money

culture you mentioned the money culture

is getting out of hand and it's not

something we should teach children our

world now you can be famous and

considered a celebrity just for having

money the money culture is running wild

and nobody puts any breaks on it let's

find out how Michael went from a desk

job to owning over 140 ships and how he

overcame the challenges and adversities

he had to face on his journey this is

the crazy one of the craziest interviews

we've ever post done so we did this

video walking around New York that

people that were well-dressed that

looked might I dare say wealthy so we

walked around New York looked at people

that were wealthy and asked them what do

they do for living how's New York an

advice for people like you and me and we

we shat out with you and you said you

owned oil tankers which we never met

anyone like that and then you also

talked about the money culture and that

clip as of today and it's probably

Higher by the time this video comes out

is at 17 million

views we tracked you down flew to Rhode

Island and now we're here to learn more

about the oil tanker business your story

and and all your adventures uh you asked

me what I did and I said I basically own

ships and that was something I got into

with a Norwegian partner in 1978 and we

spent a couple of year I spent several

years I was in the real estate Finance

business on Wall Street going to law

school at

night and I had two

passions one was the marine environment

and I grew up around here aranet Bay we

had a small boat when I was a kid 16 and

a half foot sail boat as a kid I always

wondered what it was like to go over the

horizon

not like Columbus Flat Earth I didn't

mean that just like what's it like it

just grabbed me and then I got enamored

of financial structures as I got older

for complicated reasons but they

appealed to me yeah mentally

intellectually we pioneered a number of

financial vehicles for international

shipping in the New York Capital markets

things that hadn't been done before and

they were built on my experience in the

real estate Finance business for six

years plus the benefit of the legal

training I got although I never

practiced and I had no intention to

practice but we basically took real

estate Finance Concepts and applied them

to ships and I made it a point to track

the capital markets for property for

real estate and I felt like if I could

get enough time with somebody who was an

investor in real estate I could get him

into a ship which was sort of floating

real estate very simply put and then how

much have you done in shipped real

estate sh fin okay so the the dollar

value of the 140 plus ships I never

added it all up but it must have been

well over a billion dollars I mean it

was a lot of money of ships that bought

and sold yeah the biggest deal we did

was buying the Canadian Pacific Fleet

that was 19 ships in one go one contract

so you started your career out in real

estate yeah and like how did you get

into that and then what kind of real

estate we were a Wall Street shop we're

the first dedicated real estate Finance

shop on Wall Street East still realy was

a product it was a subsidiary of East M

Dillan and Union Securities and then as

employees we got to own some of the

stock um we our clients Were Real Estate

developers big companies a lot of Texans

I mean traml Crow was a big client

and um Lincoln property I want to get

into the real estate business but from a

financial point of view this is because

of somebody I met the father of a girl I

know who had done this for himself and

he left the corporate world cuz he'

figured out how to buy a distressed

piece of real estate with somebody else

and they were off and running and they

left the corporate world which is an

important thing to be able to do to get

off to get away from W2 income I mean if

you got people who are trying to figure

out how to do this you got to keep your

expenses

down it helps if you have an

understanding wife

if you don't have an understanding wife

it's probably better not to have a wife

but that's like getting out of W2 income

I think that's a really important Point

yeah yeah what does that mean to you

Freedom you're working for yourself so

now you're an artist in a studio what do

you want to create that's how I sort of

felt but I had to I had to do something

because I had to eat and I was in fact

married at the time that I did it and my

wife was very understanding very

understanding that I had an

entrepreneurial Drive I didn't think of

it as being an entrepreneur I just

thought of it as wanting to lead my own

life but in today's world that's leads

to

entrepreneurship I I'm trying to

understand the transition you know from

going in a in a a desk job a very

standard New York Finance desk job into

the distress ship business because I

think a lot of people have dreams they

say I have a job in in Accounting in

well if they have that dream they're all

set just have to follow it yeah I did I

most people don't

actually they have a lust but they don't

have a dream or an

Envy I had a passion I mean I loved the

marine

environment the Marine World I wasn't

into it as an environmentalist exactly

but I loved being on boats loved the

ocean I had a Fascination for what it

might be like to go over the horizon I

told you and and then I got enamored of

financial structures which was just

something innate in me I wasn't a

mathematician that's a damn sure but I I

just the logic of it and the way it

worked was appealing to me and then I

saw the possible synthesis of those

things nobody was doing it that's

attractive and I felt

like whatever I do with my life I wanted

to make a difference that I was

there so that kind of works against

being a cog and a will

or whatever you call it like a tooth and

a cog I

mean that didn't work for me as I got to

know myself better as part of the

maturation process in your 20s I

realized I'm not really cut out to work

for somebody it's not because I want to

tell everybody else what to do I don't

have any interest in that actually but I

don't want to be told what to do I and

then you have to accept the consequences

of that I mean if you want to and my

father's father had a saying apparently

because I never knew him he died before

I was born born in

1862 he said the people who say they

never had a chance never took a chance

one thing I've got to highlight is that

whether you're buying housing or cars or

real estate or businesses you don't even

have to have the money yourself you can

do what you do which is fundrais I had

no money I still had some college loans

the

world has a lot of capital looking for a

home and there's a natural potentially

stressful relationship between operating

partners and Financial Partners the

financial partners need operating people

I mean if you were a guy downtown New

York doing Financial deals you can't go

buy a ship you can write the check and

then you'll go broke you won't know what

the hell to do and believe me there's no

good book to read about this because

you're

running uh you're operating in a

fundamentally hostile environment and

it's saltwater and all the vagaries of

the weather which can be boiling hot or

Arctic cold and you're running steel and

Machinery I mean good luck so you can't

do it as a novice somebody's got to know

what the hell they're doing on the

operating side so this is we you know

we're we need each other but then the

you know I'd like to own ships and keep

operating them and the uh the financial

people want to get out so that's there

you know that that's an inherent tension

in any industry financial people

operating people but they're looking for

you I mean they need us I mean I didn't

know that when I was a kid you know I

thought wow you get the money well but

people have money and they don't get

paid to sit on it they get paid to

invest it so that that's that's

available for everybody who knows what

they're

doing I've been working hard on my

upcoming book million dooll weekend

which is coming out early 2024 stay

tuned looking through my notes I found a

lost chapter that is not in the final

book very mysterious it reveals things

like how to double your income without

any new customer how to create

complimentary products to generate more

income one solar preneur did this and

made an extra

$340,000 how to optimize pricing

strategy and maximize profits and more

the Lost chapter is not online or Amazon

or anywhere else it is only for people

on my list like you you can download it

for free at noah.com

lost that's noah.com lost it's also

Below in the description all right back

to the video what were some of the most

challenging stories or moments in this

career my son became ill with

schizophrenia when he was 19 he died at

23 my wife after 40 years of marriage

well during the 40th year she had glol

blastoma and died at the end of that

year and I I I've survived good times

and bad times and I'm very deeply

motivated to try to be helpful to people

because the things I've been through

they were so difficult I'm not patting

myself on the back they were just

difficult and I was able to get through

I like to be helpful to people and

encourage people th it out and

don't don't run and don't take shortcuts

that you will regret how did you keep

going uh when your son passed away I'm

sorry to hear that in your wife let me

talk about the loss of my son quickly he

became schizophrenic when he was

19 he was a really brilliant brilliant

kid and his behavior changed and we said

like what the hell's going on

here and nobody suspected any kind of

Mental Illness but that's what it was he

died in a car accident he took my pickup

truck and went to Cambridge

Massachusetts from Little Compton where

he was spending the weekend which he

shouldn't have done that was beyond his

he was okay for driving around town I

didn't want him on the

highway and he I think had a paranoid

episode based on the observations of his

driving from Full River down to Little

Compton on the return trip and

he lost control of the car my wife and

I were joined at the hip to deal with

his

illness and or to help him deal with his

illness and then when he

died we were devastated and for some

months the emotional pain was so severe

it became physical

pain and you want to you don't want to

get up in the morning but you get up and

then you're standing up you want to fall

down on the ground and stay there but

you literally you figuratively and

somewhat literally you have like

hundreds of people standing

shoulder-to-shoulder with you who want

to help you so you can't just fall back

down on the ground because then you're

letting them down you're not doing

yourself any good not doing my son any

good and I said to my wife hope I said

you know we got

to get this in some kind of perspective

or context so we can live with it

because this is this this is torture the

only thing worse than the way that we

felt would be if we didn't feel that

way then what the hell was this all

about you're telling yourself how much

you love your

child and the investment you

made emotionally and time and giving up

other things it's all when you

got a problem like that there's only one

thing you're interested in it's

somebody's health and I realized we are

hostages to love in life you don't get

over losing a child but you learn to

live with it we moved on from that and

had the

realization that um we had been given in

a sense

a

very um expensive and painful gift from

our

son which was

um you get your heart

enlarged and you become a lot more aware

of suffering around you people that are

have problems and have challenges and

could use help

and you become

more not only more empathetic but more

proactively empathetic where you act out

your empathy by trying to be helpful to

people and I'm

sure that like me if you knew you were

on the sidewalk talking to somebody

whose next move after talking to you was

to go 20 floors up in some building and

jump there isn't anything you wouldn't

say or do to stop to try to stop that so

I stick my nose into problematic

situations that people are having and I

don't care if they want to hit me I

mean I I might be able to be

helpful and I wouldn't say

I've helped somebody in that extreme

case I described but I've definitely

helped people who were lost and and

needed it so that's a

gift

from my

son and it

uh shouldn't waste

it you can see how tough it

is

sometimes but

uh that's that's the the way we're

made but boy I'll tell you when you have

problems it certainly whatever

quotient you were carrying through your

life it gets reduced pretty close to

zero because you really come in touch

with what's important I can't imagine

let me just start there you should and

I'm sorry that you no no I mean we don't

deal the cards in life we have to play

them and everybody should understand

that I wouldn't expect my son to have

respected

me if I fold it up on

him I had two basic jobs which was to uh

protect my family and provide for

them

so anyway we should get back to shipping

I want to talk about the economics of

shipping no no I I'm genuinely curious

because I I think a lot of our content

is making money living but it's not even

about making money it's how to live a

good life and I guess I was curious how

that probably put in perspective like

you're making all this money and you're

losing money but you're like holy

this is the thing I'm assuming this is

what matters this is of course and this

the money all it hits hits you in the

face I mean if it doesn't you're

up I I mean look I don't pretend to be

immune to that but um that's why I made

my comments about the money culture and

especially for kids I

mean you know it's tough on them I mean

I see the kids today they all think they

should have what their parents have and

their parents might have spent a

generation working for it and that's not

true of everybody some people are born

with it that wasn't my case it's

important to to live a full life and a

good life

life and it's its own reward and I think

that

um I'm not naive about it I said when we

spoke the first time I said you know

everybody it's it's nice to have some

money in your pocket I get that totally

I totally totally get that but you but

you can't destroy yourself for it and um

I think you want to be careful not to

burn out your marriage for it which

happens in a lot of cases especially in

the professions where time is everything

time time time in is everything um one

of the advantages of Entrepreneurship is

if you get things

rolling you can decide who you want to

do business with that's very good for

dealing with the quotient in

your life like if you were in a big Law

Firm I don't want to work with that guy

well hey you want to get

paid you know it's we don't have to do

business with that guy and if that means

we make a little less

we have a better life for it I mean I'm

I'm not trying to be I love it utopian

but you got to think

about the cost benefit of things how

else have you enjoyed your money from

your business successes the one material

thing I had a desire for I mean it's a

slight exaggeration but not too much

when I was younger was to have a

cruising boat that would allow me to get

away I worked on first of we had a

little 16 and 1/2t boat when I was a kid

five miles from

here great but then I worked on boats

two summers when I was in college so I

got paid to learn how to run a big boat

I mean you know 47 feet 57 feet we one

guy did nothing but crws with his wife

and the other guy only wanted to race so

um it just always I responded to that uh

and I have a boat I got to say 60ft

sailboat I've had the boat for 32 years

and it was built for me and my first

wife in fact I I did everything I said

you shouldn't do I was working too hard

I was taking a lot of risks in the late

80s looked like we'd split up and then

we go back together which

was the way it should have been and as

our Getting Back Together project we

already had two perfect children so

didn't need to go for three and uh we

had this boat built

in the fantasy of the boat was

longdistance relatively short-handed

cruising were there other things that

you thought would give you more joy from

business success like or things that you

bought or did and you're like this

didn't really satisfy me in the way that

people might expect or imagine when I

saw the Life Style in New York I

realized this isn't really for

me and the value of having a lot of cash

is that I mean my son very smart comment

he made when he was about 20 he said

money is

energy 20 years

old and um I had seen having more

Capital as extra colors on a pallet so

you're working on a canvas and you can

do more things with it but um you don't

have to have the money we touched on

this earlier I mean money is around

people who've got money or who run money

are looking for things to do with people

they think they can do it with

successfully so you can do

both

um but when you start seeing people who

can only talk about money and people who

can only think about money and they want

to tell you how expensive the wine was

that they had last night I'm telling you

drink it tonight pee it in the morning I

mean I don't care what you're dealing

with that's the that's the story nobody

no nobody's doing it any different and

um it's a question of your values and

I'm not trying to be preachy here but

just I think it's sustaining and I think

as a society of free people who respect

the rule of law and

value human dignity and human

life and

opportunity how much money do you need I

think the whole things are going crazy

and finance capitalism is a double-edged

sword you know a lot of goods come out

of it because things have been done to

create more value more wealth Finance

more

Innovation but boy we're getting it's so

heavily skewed now it's just crazy can

you elaborate on that because you you

mentioned the money culture is getting

out of hand and it's not something we

should teach children and you said

people are celebrities now simply for

having money but it says nothing of your

care character yeah so can can you

elaborate on this this theme and your

your feelings around this the the prime

civic virtue of character has pretty

much been replaced by

celebrity and you can be famous for

having done something but in our world

now you can be famous and considered a

celebrity just for having money so

that's the difference in the from where

I grew up and I I mean this is in New

England I I mean it's different here but

um I don't think it's healthy and it's

happening all over the world the money

culture is running wild and nobody puts

any breaks on it with with your career

and do you have any regrets like you

work too hard was it all worth it I I

don't have regrets about that I mean I

can say there were times when work got

in the way of things you know you're

it's a constant Balancing Act in life

you can't do all things at all times and

I'm very I'm totally at peace with uh

how I lived my life recognizing numerous

mistakes I feel like life is uh you live

it like an elastic

band and you can take it out to the

limits and you can hold it there for a

while but you're got to let it come back

in then you can take it out again but if

you take it out too far you're going to

break it and then it's done and you

can't live in here so I think people

have to be mindful of that then you can

work it out but if

you try to do all the things all the

time I don't see how that works I had an

incredibly rich

life not

easy but a rich rewarding satisfying

life

and I'm grateful and I'm grateful to

have been born in this country where

these

opportunities are found more readily

than any place else for a lot of our

audience that wants to make money they

they dream of making a million dollars

what advice do you have for someone

who's a young person that would like to

make a million dollars or more money try

things and

see what gives you

pleasure in doing it and then consider

following that ramping up your

involvement and ramping up your

productivity in that area because I

think that's a great start I mean would

you out with a woman that you weren't

attracted

to what's the point you know there are

things that we're attracted to you just

have to let yourself find out and

getting to know can be as important as

getting to yes so you save yourself a

lot of trouble well I'm not going to be

a lawyer well okay I'm not going to be a

doctor okay I think I'll be a

photographer wow did you see that Sunset

yesterday or whatever it is you know I

mean just that's why I mean your stomach

tells you things that your brain won't

let through if you have a passion for

something it is a form of compensation I

mean to some extent you I mean you got

to have cheeseburger money but it it's

its own it is its own reward and it gets

you through the hard times when you're

just

working because you're making money at

it I I couldn't stand the merit badge

approach I'm doing this because I want a

merit badge so I can then do that and

get another merit badge which a lot of

people I'm sure you've seen this a lot

of people maybe not the guys you're

talking to they've all broken

out but most of the world seems to be on

that path they're looking for approval

which makes you a

conformist I'm not saying people should

be wildly non-conformists

but don't be afraid to be a majority of

one can you break down the ship owning

business model like how you make money

let's let's specifically do this

Canadian one you were talking about like

how much did the deal cost like how do

you make money on it how do you even you

know do you look online are the Yellow

Pages you know you're like oh let me

just I hadn't thought of that yeah like

but specifically this Canadian one you

said it was the best deal of all time

for you guys like what what did the

numbers look like and walk us through

that well it covered the most ground the

fastest I mean it was one transaction it

was it was 19 chips and I've forgotten

some of the numbers this was in 1988 it

was around1 165 or $170 million in a

soft Market that was the price of the

fleet I mean you can pay that for a

single ship you know of some type so the

numbers can get big

um the best analogy and this will help

any

viewer is to real estate this is a hard

asset business we're renting

space in a

Marketplace and we're subject to the

laws of supply and demand and I mean and

then some much greater volatility than

real estate but it's comparable and it's

Capital

intensive um you don't get a premium

particularly for the value of your

management I mean you're buying and

selling assets and everything comes back

to a net

asset perspective not like price

earnings and growth potential and all

that

um so you you make your

money with cash flow that you generate

from the ships and then if your timing

was good you may get asset

appreciation that is not absolutely

necessary to have a successful

investment it's it's icing on the cake

if you get it but um you could build a

ship and have long-term employment and

get it paid down substantially the trick

here is to reduce the risk as fast as

possible and then hang on

for either normal markets which are

quite

rewarding or super hot markets which are

spectacularly rewarding and me the cash

is coming out of these ships like water

out of a hydrant and and last thing is

what is your one what is one story from

running your own shipping company like

what's the story that comes to mind that

that makes you smile or that you're

really proud of you know who DK Ludwig

was Daniel K Ludwick at the end of World

War I he was probably the biggest trip

owner

nonc nonpublic in the world had over 100

ships guy had about an eighth grade

education he had built in Japan two

structures one was a power plant and one

was a pulp Mill and he had them floated

over across the Pacific up the amazon

and set on pilings on the river

jar and he was growing eucalyptus trees

a fast growing tropical tree to turn

them into pulp and then the Brazil some

Brazilian political people started

trying to move in on them and they

wanted to get paid for this and that and

he

said and he shut it

down and he this was in his later years

and he wrote off 500 million bucks which

at that time was a monstrous amount of

money he died his right-hand man was a

guy I knew when I was talking to them

about some ships they still owned and

might want to sell we're in Old Man

Ludwig's office in this guy is telling

me this story that one day old man

lewick says to him so the river Jarry

project what do you think of that he's

sort of got a conventional view of this

500 million bucks is a lot of money to

lose an unthinkable amount of money to

lose it's an unthinkable amount of money

okay so the guy kind of mumbles say yeah

he said well it was a success and the

guy mumbles a little more he doesn't

know what to say to his boss he say it

was a success because we did it now this

is another part of the story which is

true I was walking across town at one

point on 59th Street and across the

street I thought I saw DK lwig walking

down the street I was not in the

shipping business at that time but I was

thinking about it so he's walking down

the street I hear him say this guy well

you got to be a bit of a dreamer in life

and I thought oh my God so you ask me

now my greatest satis action is not a

single story but the fact that I did it

if you like this video you are going to

love this video right up here where I

talk to 5 millionaires over the age of

80 and ask them if the money was worth

all the sacrifices they made make sure

you're subscribe to the channel if you

are not already we have some exciting

billionaire interviews coming soon Uncle

Noah loves you and I'll see you out

there PE PE

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
ship /ʃɪp/ A1	noun - a large boat for travelling on water verb - transport (goods) by ship
own /oʊn/ A2	verb - to have something as your property
distress /dɪˈstrɛs/ B2	noun - extreme anxiety, sorrow, or pain
real estate /ˈriːəl ɪˈsteɪt/ B1	noun - property consisting of land or buildings
money /ˈmʌni/ A1	noun - a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes
passion /ˈpæʃən/ B2	noun - strong and barely controllable emotion
dream /driːm/ A2	noun - a series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep verb - to indulge in daydreams or fantasies about something greatly desired
loss /lɒs/ B1	noun - the fact or process of losing something or someone
brilliant /ˈbrɪliənt/ B2	adjective - exceptionally clever or talented
wealthy /ˈwɛlθi/ B2	adjective - having a great deal of money or assets; rich
advice /ədˈvaɪs/ B1	noun - guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action
finance /faɪˈnæns/ B2	noun - the management of large amounts of money, especially by governments or large companies.
marine /məˈriːn/ B2	adjective - relating to the sea
capital /ˈkæpɪtl/ B2	noun - wealth in the form of money or other assets
hostile /ˈhɒstaɪl/ B2	adjective - unfriendly; antagonistic
challenge /ˈtʃælɪndʒ/ B1	noun - a task or situation that tests someone's abilities