[English]
This week, Kier Starmer gets tough on
Nigel Farage.
He doesn't like Britain. Doesn't believe
in Britain. Wants you to doubt it just
as much as he does.
He delivers one of his greatest hits,
but with a twist.
People like my dad. I think by now you
know what he did for a living.
And Chris Mason's dentist resigns in
disgust at his eating habits at Labour
Party conference.
Well, that's brave.
This is like an ASMR video.
We will discuss all of that and what
else we learned this week on this
episode of Newscast.
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio
and Chris in the studio.
Fisel in the newscast studio.
And please welcome Professor Jane Green
who has got many job titles. I'll read
them out. Director of Nfield Politics
Research Center at Oxford and president
of the British Poland Council.
Oh, you missed a few, but thank you very
much.
You're in a band. And you're in a band.
The risk register.
Exactly. Um, can we download your
material?
Uh, not quite yet.
Okay. Not that big.
Okay. Right. But let's focus on let's
focus on your political analysis for
this episode.
Okay. That sounds good.
Um, and I should say we did an episode
of Newscast the podcast which you can
listen to on BBC Sounds now with the
latest from the terror incident in
Manchester. So, we have been keeping an
eye on that. But in this episode, we're
going to look back at some of the
political events of the week because
Chris, you and I spent half of it in
Liverpool at the Labor Party conference.
Yeah. How do you think Kier Starmer has
emerged from that?
I think speaking to those around him and
indeed speaking to him there, he's
pleased that they have focused their
pitch, if you like, their political
pitch on reform. The prime minister has
been getting a lot of heat privately
from some pretty senior figures around
him saying it was the the Labor offer
was still still too fuzzy in their view,
particularly up against Nigel Farage,
who paints in the most primary of of
colors. We've seen a buildup to this
argument in terms of Labour making the
case that their real opponents are
reform rather than the Conservatives
which they kept labeling as irrelevant.
Uh but it came together I think in that
in that conference speech speaking to
folk since that speech uh those who
welcomed it say that's good but will he
stick to it? Uh because you know you
don't change the political narrative in
one speech. Most people miss most of
what politicians do most of the time. In
other words, does he keep prosecuting
that argument in the next six to nine
months, particularly in the countdown to
the elections in Scotland and Wales and
indeed locally in England next May? Um,
and to what and to what effect? And the
sharpening of the language I think was
particularly particularly striking, not
least the round that then bubbled up
with Nigel Farage and reform about
exactly that.
Um, Jane, you spend your whole life
crunching data about how the electorate
think about things. What data will
number 10 Downing Street have crunched
to help them inform that conference
speech that he gave?
Oh, that's a fascinating question, Adam,
because I've been wondering if they are
crunching the same data as us because
our analysis of voting behavior and
defections from Labor, so people that
voted Labor in 2024 and no longer intend
to vote Labor, tells a kind of two-prong
story. One is that Labour's vote is
splintering in all directions, but the
smallest proportion is to reform. So
before the conference, one had to wonder
why they were going for reform voters so
much. That's not about the attack on
reform, but that's just about which
voters are they most worried about. And
I think there might have been assumption
that they could almost rely on the left
to sort of rally around Labor again if
they see reform as the main threat. So
that's clearly one of the things that
they're thinking,
but it was curious how much they looked
like they were going for reform voters
because that's really tricky for Labor.
The other risk with all of this and it
is high risks you know but then
obviously you've got to make a choice
and frankly you can't ignore Farage and
you can't ignore the polls but the other
big risk is that Conservative voters are
still leaving the Conservative party.
Now that is extraordinary because I mean
it's not extraordinary when you think
about the context but if historically
you don't normally see the main
opposition party losing support when the
governing part is losing support. So,
Conservative voters are still switching
to reform and Conservative voters were
switching to reform between 2019 and
2024. So, that's a cumulative loss on
the right. Now, if you then tell
everybody because obviously Labor is not
just talking to Labor voters, they're
talking to everyone. If you tell
conservative voters reform is the main
opposition on party on the right, then
perhaps reform looks like the viable
party to choose rather than the
conservatives. That's very bad for
Labor. Very, very bad for Labor because
Labor can lose so many constituencies
just because Conservative voters move to
reform in greater numbers. And it is
interesting because actually when you're
in Labour Party conference in the hall
and surrounded by Labor activists, you
sort of feel like it's a message to
Labor activists and okay, you're
constantly thinking about the rest of
the country because we're going to
interpret it on the 6 and 10:00 news and
the Today program, but when you're in
there, you the thing that's in front of
you is the activists cheering the
messages.
I think I sometimes forget that he is
speaking to the whole country at that
point.
I mean, he's hoping to, right? Like I
mean, he's hoping that someone's
listening. I think Chris is absolutely
right. You know, we can obsess about a
speech and it's really important. It
tells us about the direction and the
strategy and the intentions, but the
real test, the proof of the pudding is
whether it gets outside of the
conference hall and whether it's
repeated and whether it's prosecuted
over and over and over again. Um, but
there was such a lot that was in that
speech that also was for the left. And I
think
that was what was fascinating that for
so there were two kind of vacuums,
weren't there? one was this vacuum over
kind of oh there's a lot of racism and
racist language and things are being
normalized here and nobody else is
saying anything about this on the left
of politics to try to counter that. So I
think that was one of the things that he
was trying to do. The other one was of
course give people on the left a reason
to vote for them. And I think that does
speak to what we see in our analysis and
it's not just our analysis of British
election study data. Of course you see
it in polling right across the piece
that Labour's vote was splintering from
the left and Labour's biggest losses are
still to undecided. So they really
needed and I still think this is un I'm
still very unclear about this. They
really needed to give people a sense of
what labor was for. And it's not I mean
you know is labor for tolerance and
economic growth. I wouldn't say economic
growth is the thing that people worried
about the most. I think it's their own
finances, their own worries about their
own financial well-being, cost of living
and everything else. Well, and and
people don't link the economy as a whole
growing to their own personal
circumstances getting
I mean I often think and forgive me for
saying this but I often think well if I
think something's nuanced and I'm an
academic and I'm meant to do nuance
then I'm not sure that you know somebody
who's not like me is going I mean it was
a very nuanced argument about how growth
translates into you know people's kind
of daily lives and in our own analysis
we we've been running some um additional
surveys with the Joseph Roundry
Foundation absolutely fascinating
economic growth is the is the top thing
that people don't understand as well.
Okay. So if you ask like how's you know
GDP, how's the economic growth going?
That's the one with the highest
proportion of people that saying I don't
know
right
you know what I know is how I feel about
the cost of living how I feel about
inflation and prices and you know people
are more willing to talk about
and there wasn't a lot about the cost of
living in Star speech there was one one
line wasn't there when he talked about
like the things that make life good like
going out for a meal or having a a trip
somewhere. Yeah. And he does mention
economic security which was a personal
moment for me but because it's something
I've been talking about for absolutely
yonks now you know the importance of
this.
Um and fisel I suppose you would be
watching Rachel Reeves' speech as much
as Karma's speech for clues about the
economy and do we have
do we get any clues for the next few
months?
I want to pick up some of what Jane
said. I think I think what I heard there
which I wondered why we haven't had this
earlier was this attempt to inject some
degree of optimism in a world
politically we've talked about this
before w where there's a lot of doomism
doom and gloom some of it came from the
government itself just over a year ago
uh and I think from their perspective it
hasn't really stopped they expect you
know and not just for political purposes
I'd imagine where they want people to
feel a little bit better about about
things. Interest rates have been cut.
Um, real income, so that's after
inflation have started to go up. No boom
here. But like certainly when they're
going down, that's a bad thing, right?
So the absence of that bad thing is
good. The absence of a sort of fiscal
crisis, a mini budget style situation is
is also good. But some sense of
optimism, we can see in some of the
economic statistics, this downtrodden
vibe is having an impact. People's
savings rates are high. They're in
double digit over 10% was the latest
figure that came out just this week and
that is what we sort of associate with
pandemic level stress. So people are a
bit worried about the economy and given
we've had five interest rate cuts, given
that real incomes are growing, given
that the economy has been growing even
if people don't feel it so much.
Um consumer confidence and things like
that are lagging behind. And so I
thought it was very I thought I'd hear
it more from the chancellor. We heard a
bit of it from the chancellor. Then the
prime minister really went for it on
this sort of optimistic tale of what
Britain
can be.
Oh, so all that stuff about like, oh,
Britain's a great country cuz the people
that chop the oranges at halftime for
their kids football match, that was
actually intended to like stimulate a
feel-good factor that makes people go
out and spend money.
And I'm
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're making a very
sort of direct punch through argument
there. But yeah, in a sense,
I haven't heard them say that to me. But
I when I when I when I put together some
of the things holding the economy back
the economy should be doing better given
the interest rate cuts. We should see
consumer confidence ticking up. It has
not ticked up. There's some very
interesting analysis saying that some of
this might be attached to people's
political beliefs particularly amongst
the over 50s where there's a really that
is the that is the central part of low
consumer confidence is the over 50s. And
is there something to do with political
beliefs about the country being rubbish?
Basically, even though things are very
stressed for younger people, in fact,
their consumer confidence has gone up
with their incomes. So, I think I I
detect there could have been a conscious
strategy to g people up a little bit.
I'm also conscious of the return of the
b- word, Brexit. You think about Jane's
analysis of who they're trying to win
with this strategy. I was very struck in
the interviews by the prime minister in
Rachel Reef's speech. This thing about
the youth scheme with Europe really
leaning in to Brexit having not worked.
I'll just put it like that in a way they
maybe wouldn't have done before the
election because they didn't want to
offend those reform voters. Right.
I think Yeah. I I think there's
something in that. Not least because I
think they realize that they cannot they
cannot sharpen a political argument with
reform and then walk past the question
of Brexit. I think coupled with the fact
I think they've been inclined to want to
do it for a while and have just been
trying to find the the space to do it.
Just picking up on your point about the
optimism and the oranges. There's an
overlap here. No, no, the oranges thing
is is an interesting part of this
because I think there's an overlap. We I
think we mentioned this on newscast the
other day, Adam. So firstly, I think
there was an awareness that they did
want to sound more optimistic, but
didn't want to fall into the trap that
they felt that Rishi Sunnak occasionally
fell into, which was to seize upon a
particular bit of economic data and and
this is to caricature what he would have
done, but to to to the the political
danger of overdoing the positive if
people are feeling negative. Mhm.
But I think where the overlap with the
oranges comes in and indeed the image
from Shroptshire, the rolling English
countryside of Shroptshire, which later
which is this image that popped up all
around uh the conference center in
Liverpool was this articulation that
they were attempting to find around how
they see patriotism
uh in in this era where there is contest
around flags and we saw the Union flag
and indeed the flags of the UK nations
very prominently in the audience uh
during the prime minister of speech. So
I think there's an overlap there. I
think that the the the that to to to
overdo seizing on that quarter of orange
is to both lean into a sense of optimism
but also identity and belonging and who
we are and and and I think the word that
neatly encapsulate both encapsulates
both of those is pride. That's what they
were trying to get to.
You know this I think you know this
question about mentioning Brexit. It's
partly because people have come to the
conclusion that Brexit hasn't worked for
many people. It's partly because
Labour's voters are overwhelmingly those
voters who either voted remain or would
againain. Um but it's also something
else, isn't it? It's there's two things
I think. One is people just didn't want
to go there again.
Completely.
Um they didn't want to go there again.
So imagine framing another general
election campaign as a little bit like
that one. you know, where you've got
kind of the same guy Nigel Farage on the
Brexit side promising a load of stuff
just as in Brexit that a lot of that did
not happen and then you've got this kind
of binary choice. I mean, that's how I
kind of almost think about the next
explain something that I'd find a bit
mysterious. The weekend before Labour
Party conference where Rachel Reeves's
big interview, the centerpiece in the
Times was the youth mobility scheme with
the EU which has already been announced,
not actually negotiated with the EU, but
we knew a version of it was coming. And
that's the thing that she sort of
splashed on and then ministers were
talking about a lot those those days
around it. I'm like why? But now I
understand why.
Well well well there's the dividing line
politically. Economically, they hope
that it will unlock a return of serve
from the Europeans that can open up some
economic wins. For example, getting rid
of almost all checks on food imports and
exports. Prime Minister said that that
in some of his interviews that that
would be a win for food prices, help uh
British manufacturing industry um be
part of uh consortia that are bidding
for the massive boom now in rearming
Europe. um there's going to be tens of
billions, hundreds of billions. You want
British manufacturers at the heart of
that at the minute we're not allowed to
be part of these consortium
that is open as a negotiating point that
will have been heard in Brussels. Now
there's also now traditionally we may
have said only a year ago we would have
said well then there's all sorts of like
are you getting too close to to
Brussels? Is that going to offend the
reform voters? Are they going to go
there? And I just note uh Mr. Bernham
popping up in in a in a and saying he
thought we were going to rejoin in his
lifetime, which he you never would have
got a senior Labor figure even going
there a year ago.
And Bernham was saying a lot.
No, he was saying a lot. But I'm just
saying like the dynamic if this is if
this is a new dynamic if I wrong. If
we're right,
then coming up on that side of the
Labour party, which is where the
action's going to be for the government,
becomes a bit of a competition. And do
you get the same as happened for the
Tories
in the last decade happened to Labor
being outflanked
and and Chris this is I mean this is a
ridiculous question to ask because I
don't know how you can't peer into like
Kstarmmer's brain directly but he's
under a lot of fire. We had that sort
he's very unpopular in the polls
although we could talk about whether
everyone is always going to be that
unpopular in the rest of time when the
the next 10 prime ministers are going to
be unpopular. He'd just seen Andy
Burnham come along and sort of like make
a tilt for the crown. You sat down for
an interview with him after you've done
this conference speech. Like how did he
seem? And I know you can't read too much
into like how someone seems, but I'm
just intrigued like how does he wear all
of this?
I think he was chipper and relieved. I
mean I spoke to him within about half an
hour, 40 minutes of him finishing the
speech. The adrenaline was probably
pumping through him. Um but I think he
he felt pretty chipper. I think he felt
and those around him felt pretty chipper
that the nature of how the whole Andy
Burnham thing played out meant that it
actually served to rally a lot of the
parliamentary Labour party behind Kasama
even though a lot of them are very alive
what they see as his weaknesses and
there was the thing I came around away
with politically from the whole
conference was was a sense of how deep
wide and senior questions run about
whether he's the best frontman for the
the job they've set themselves which is
taking on reform. Yeah, because all of
us speculating about the prime minister
being replaced at one point. Like we all
do that. Like cabinet ministers aren't
normally meant to do that with
journalists
and and privately uh they are.
It's as it's as simple as that. Now that
doesn't mean things will change
instantly. It may also mean that things
blow over because you know party
conferences in particular are sort of
febal places of political gossip. Um but
um but that is being talked about uh by
people from the cabinet uh down
particularly in the context of what
happens next summer after those
elections in May and where Labor and
Reform and indeed others uh but where
those two parties are by then. Um, and
Fisel, I saw you posted on social media
on X, formerly known as Twitter, that
when um, Nick Robinson had interviewed K
Starmer the next day, the the bit you
picked out was Starr saying, "Oh, I'm
looking at how much we're spending on
sickness benefits. And I'm looking at
how much is being spent on young people
with mental health conditions. And I'm
wondering if maybe that money might be
spent better on treatment and support
for people with mental health conditions
as opposed to just cash handouts in the
form of benefits." What do you think
that signals? Well, and he said he was
looking at it, too. So, obviously the
context to this is that they had a
little tilt at welfare cuts. Let's call
them cuts. They called it reform, but it
was cuts. And then they retreated,
delayed. And I've never thought that
their appetite to try and do something
in this area has gone away.
I think I think what we have seen since
uh the summer has been a reframing of
the argument to say, well, what we will
do is reform. And he used the phrase
moral argument. So the moral argument
won't be that we need to save the money.
The moral argument will be it is a
disgrace that young people go straight
from college or university and are on
benefits related to mental health
because at that point the best medicine
as they would see it would be to be in a
workplace or training or something like
that
and then have a career. If you're on
benefits, he use this statistic, there
is a significant likelihood that you
could be on benefits for life if you're
then in the early 20s. So you make that
argument,
you then find some money to invest,
you've got to invest in the mental
health services
and then you save money on the welfare
bill. But what does that actually mean?
The end part of that is does that mean
actually taking those benefits away from
young people? Does it mean treating the
benefit system differently for mental
health versus physical health? Then you
get into some Well, over to Chris at
none of this is imminent, Chris, because
Steven Tims, the minister, is doing this
big review as a result of the failure to
pass the welfare reforms from earlier on
in the year. So, actually, there's
probably still another year of working
this out.
Yeah, I think that's probably broadly
right. Um, they're definitely determined
to have another go. You could see that
in the signaling when Pat McFaden was
sent to be working pension secretary in
the reshuffle. But also speaking to very
senior folk, they are going to have
another go. They acknowledged that they
got the politics badly wrong last time
because all of the focus was on saving
money rather than making that that moral
that moral argument as the as the prime
minister put it. I think also into the
mix is the movement that's going to come
on the two child benefit cap relatively
soon, next couple of months, probably at
the budget. Quite what that amounts to
is still in the works. Is there some
sort of tapering? Does it go to three
children? How do they pay for it?
Significantly expensive. Prime
Minister's always argued it's something
he wanted to do but felt that he
couldn't afford. Obviously, that's a
choice, but that was how he
he framed it. I did put it to someone
quite senior in government the other
day. I said, "If you move on the two
child benefit cap, given how how much
desire there is within the party that
that happens, does that buy you goodwill
around other changes?" And this person
who's been around the block a bit and
was mildly cynical said, "Now they just
swallow that and still argue about about
the other stuff. But I think I think
they will try and
use a movement on that with arguments
around the nature of the budget which is
which are unavoidable I think in a sort
of physical context into the short and
medium term. Not least remember those
changes they couldn't get through were
about slowing the rate of the increase
in the in the benefits bill because of
the projected number of people going on
to it.
So I think they'll they'll repackage the
argument. There'll be some things that
will uh serve they hope to persuade some
of the skeptics before. Um but it'll be
a tussle again because it's not an easy
thing for for a Labor government to do.
Uh then let's turn our attention to the
Conservatives. I only discovered today
that actually their conferences in
Manchester. I thought I was going to go
to Birmingham. So I'm glad glad I
checked. Thanks BBC Verify. Um uh and
we'll talk about the Conservatives on
newscast the podcast quite a lot in the
next few days and probably next week
once the conference is all wrapped up
and it's all happened. But Jane, the
thing that was announced today by Chem
Bedon is that she would repeal the
Climate Change Act, which is this
previous Labor government era piece of
legislation, which was supported by lots
of the other parties at the time that
set up the independent climate change
committee that had these binding climate
change targets for for each parliament
and kind of like defines what what we do
as a country about about getting to net
zero eventually. Um, do you think chemoc
has done that just because she just
doesn't like it and it's sort of that's
her personal thing or does she think
there's actually some electoral
advantage to doing something like this?
Wow. I mean Chris, you know, you got the
question is of what was in Karma's head
and can have the question of what's in
bed. Um, but the deeper issue here,
isn't it? Is like Kem Benedok is really
struggling to have cut through. She's
really struggling within the party, let
alone outside the party. And it's
extraordinary actually to be honest that
this would be the thing. I mean, it's
not going to be the thing that she's
going to spend the whole of conference
talking about. And we'll have to wait to
see. But fundamentally, the Conservative
party is trying to figure out if they're
a party that goes harder on the right or
whether they they shouldn't do that. And
that is amazing when you think, you
know, is this a party that sees itself
as the natural party of opposition or is
it a party that's vying for voters on
the fringes of British politics? And if
you just looked at that one statement
alone, you would say, well, this is a
this is a leader who thinks that she
needs to be on the fringes,
right?
Um not in the mainstream what people are
worried about.
The majority of voters are actually in
favor of something like the climate
change act.
Yes. and also that the majority of
voters aren't thinking about the climate
change act. They want to see a party in
opposition that is a potential credible
alternative government that's talking
about public services, cost of living,
the things that people really care
about. And you know what I've been told
and you know I'm an academic and I study
analysis and evidence but um you know
but the little bits of things that I
hear about Cammy Benedarch is that she's
particularly comfortable on these sort
of culture wars kinds of issues. Now,
the environment's not traditionally a
culture wars issues, but it's it's not
your sort of traditional leftright
breadandbut economics
and that she's veered away from those
kinds of breadandbut economic issues.
And and you know what she's been saying
is, well, people aren't going to look at
us now, so we need to take a pause and
come up with things and do a deep kind
of stock take and all the rest of it and
come out later. Now, that would be a bit
of a bold thing to say in normal
political times.
In political times when there is a party
on the right that is gobbling up half of
your vote, I mean, their vote has
literally halved and gone to reform in
the last year.
She doesn't have time.
She can't do that. I mean, that's just,
you know, that is just too little too
late. So, um I think she's missing
opportunities or the conservatives are
missing opportunities and not frankly
understanding the depth of their
difficulties.
Um the thing I'll be most interested to
see and feel actually feel is a better
word is and I know this is one of the
cliches of party conference season but
the sort of mood of the party at this
conference because last year the
conservative conference had had a sort
of survivors elation vibe to it. It was
quite upbeat
and the leadership contest which meant
there was a bit of excitement.
The leadership contest gave it a sense
of purpose and activists felt almost
like uh they had their conference back
because there was far few kind of
corporate lobbyists around and all that
kind of stuff.
We were seeing labor struggle and
thought they would be the natural
beneficiaries.
Yes. Because exactly Labour had had a
bumpy start. All the rouse about passes
for glasses and all that stuff of a of a
year ago. They were having a battle of
ideas which any member of a political
party tends to love. Um, so how's it
going to feel for them this year when
they've gone backwards from a dire
position? Yeah.
Um, and you know, they're not in they're
not in a internal contest. I mean, I
think the way I interpret Kami Benedo's
approach both to the climate change act
to this review that she set up to look
into the European Convention on Human
Rights, which we're expecting to
conclude and for her to decide that the
party will advocate withdrawal, is that
this is authentic bayonoism or whatever.
you know, this is this is how this is
this is her this is how she believes
politics should be done. She's making an
argument that says that hers is the only
truly conservative party. So she argues
that reform are as she would see it
fiscally incontinent throwing lots of
money around in terms of some of their
spending uh commitments. Reform would
obviously push back on that but that's
her uh political argument. But you know
the evidence suggests at the moment it's
it's not working. I think it's also true
to say historically, certainly in
contemporary history, there's never been
a harder time to lead the Conservative
party. And I and I would say on on the
this argument about climate change, I
think that the conservatives would would
bet that it is going to become an
economic issue or they're trying to make
it an economic issue and a cost of
living issue because we're now at the
stage where the sorts of changes in the
transition will start affecting ordinary
households whether it's the heat pump or
cladding or your electric vehicle. These
are decisions made by consumers that
governments have to make and I question
this will be a real test of the
government. Are they willing to push
against on this hard enough to almost
force householders to change their
homes?
How much resistance are you going to get
from that? There's a lot of political uh
potential uh benefits. Is this going to
be like a giant version of do you
remember the Oxbridge bi-election after
Boris Johnson resigned as an MP thing
boiled down to like the ultra low
emission zone and what exactly I'm not
saying it's going to work necessarily
but you can see the calculation and and
the question for me is how far do they
go because you have reform saying things
like you know writing letters to the
guys bidding on the wind farm contracts
saying we will rip these up which is a
frankly extraordinary thing for an
opposition party that aspires to
government to say we're going to rip up
contracts Now,
is there some sort of Dutch auction here
between the Conservatives and reformer
as to how far they go along this path?
I think there's a bit of that and I
think just to ex extend your thought one
further on is that some conservatives
anticipate with some of these targets
getting quite real in terms of they're
no longer on the horizon. They are much
more imminent. That the government may
so they calculate uh reach a point where
they think is this doable? Is it
practical? is it politically viable? And
then they might be able to say, "Look,
well, we we spotted this coming." But
then, who knows?
So much to talk about for the next 35
years. Um, now talking about horizons,
Chris, you mentioned this picture of the
rolling hills in Shropshire that was all
over the Labor Party conference. We
discovered where it was. It's in a place
that I thought was called Rattling Hope,
but we had a message from newscaster
David who lives there and says it's
actually pronounced ratchup
even though it is written for a really
long time and I didn't know that.
Always learning. Always learn
as in you you didn't know that's how it
was pronounced or you not heard of the
place.
That was how it was.
Yeah. Ratch up. And he says, "David, the
drive or walk over the Stretton Hills
from there to Carding Mill Valley is
highly recommended." And that's two
other places I probably mispronounced.
No, you did fine on Cardinal Valley.
Thank you very much. And thanks for
coming into the studio, Jane.
Thanks for having me.
Nice to see you, Fisel.
Great to be
and Chris, I'll see you in Manchester.
Manchester.