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There's a big confusion in our industry 00:00
about what is sales and what is 00:02
marketing. 00:04
Are the blades any good? 00:04
No. 00:06
Sales is what you do when you're not 00:07
good at branding and marketing. Email 00:09
and Google Adwords are much closer to 00:11
sales DNA than organic social content 00:15
which is much more similar to what 00:18
worked on television. You had the 00:20
attention of the consumer on a medium. 00:22
You story told and it affected them. I 00:24
did not buy in the 80s and 90s and 2000s 00:28
all that Nike stuff because somebody 00:30
last touch attributed me. Somebody cold 00:32
called me. Nike sent me an email. I 00:34
bought it because of brand. 00:37
I have this events business. We put all 00:38
events and we're doing something stupid. 00:40
Okay. So, what we do is we'll go out 00:42
there and we'll put ads on social media 00:44
content on social media, Instagram, 00:46
LinkedIn, whatever. And mostly when 00:48
they're not doing well, we boost them 00:50
with ad dollars to try to almost hide 00:52
this crappy creative that we've made is 00:54
amplification 00:58
of paid ads on social media epically 00:59
stupid. So, first of all, the fact that 01:02
you asked that question in the way that 01:04
you asked that question, I wish you 01:06
could I wish you actually did put a USB 01:08
in me and and see what was going on with 01:10
my chemicals because my heart smiled so 01:13
hard because I've been very loudly and 01:17
effectively but not directly enough. 01:20
This is something I've literally thought 01:24
about this summer, which is this fall I 01:25
need to make black and white direct 01:27
content that the single stupidest thing 01:30
in the world of marketing and business 01:34
and pop culture is amplifying 01:35
content that clearly did not do well 01:39
because it didn't do well organically 01:42
because a you're trying to convert 01:44
something like ticket sales or b cuz 01:47
you're so deeply insecure and you don't 01:49
want something that has 800 views And so 01:51
you want 40,000 views because you are 01:53
literally taking money and throwing it 01:56
into a garbage and then lighting a match 01:58
and burning it to the ground. So yes, 02:01
you are doing the single worst thing on 02:04
earth. 02:06
The fact that you now know it, whether 02:08
you saw a clip or you read it in a book 02:11
makes me so happy cuz I am desperate to 02:13
be a positive contributor in some way, 02:17
shape, or form. And it sounds like you 02:19
are now ready to no longer do that 02:22
anymore. So kudos to you. Hey everybody. 02:24
I know you're a minute into the video on 02:27
YouTube. I'm not going to keep you long, 02:29
but I've got to tell you about 02:30
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Go check it out. Now, back to the video. 02:59
Well, okay, that makes me feel really 03:01
good. Other than the being stupid part, 03:03
which I agree with and my wife would 03:04
agree with. Um, but here's the part that 03:05
So, I read the book. I love the book and 03:08
I'm here's the part I'm confused by. So, 03:10
one of the things you're really known 03:13
for and how I got all hooked on on your 03:14
content is this idea of jab, jab, jab, 03:16
right hook. Meaning, for people out 03:19
there don't know, Gary's really coined 03:20
this whole thing of where you you give, 03:23
you give, you give, whe you know, with 03:24
your content, it's you're providing 03:26
value. You're providing value, providing 03:28
value, and then you hit with this hook 03:29
and say, "By the way, why don't you work 03:31
with me or buy this thing or do 03:32
whatever." 03:33
And the key there is you ask, you don't 03:34
take. I always like to clarify here. You 03:36
give, you give, you give, and then you 03:38
ask. And when they do not deliver on 03:39
your ask, you do not feel bad or sad or 03:43
mad at them. Very key nuance to my model 03:46
that I'm passionate about. Right? Like 03:50
the entitlement of thinking just because 03:51
you've given a bunch of good content 03:53
that someone's going to buy your sneaker 03:54
or your wine or your trading card or 03:56
anything else that other people sell is 03:57
audacious and manipulative. The concept 03:59
of give, give, give is brand and then 04:01
you're going to convert a certain part 04:03
of that audience. So yes, I'm deeply 04:05
passionate about that. So herd go ahead. 04:07
So, but a lot of times we were putting 04:09
content out there and you have your 04:11
winners and losers. And in my case, 04:12
we're amplifying losers because we don't 04:14
want them to be losers. The problem is, 04:17
right, the problem is our jabs are 04:20
winners. I mean, they're winners because 04:22
they're like value. So, the thing, but 04:24
the value ones, like if I put out a 04:27
piece of content and it does really 04:29
well, that one's not asking for 04:30
anything. So, it's not converting to 04:32
pipeline or sales that fast. Not black 04:33
and white attribution. 04:36
Yes. 04:39
Subconsciously it is. 04:40
Right. 04:42
Right. Like that's called brand. One is 04:42
sales, one is brand. So yes, heard and I 04:45
know where you're going. Keep going. So 04:47
there's the question. So now what? 04:49
So now so I do I do I amplify the 04:51
winners that may not be the ones 04:53
converting to sales or do I amplify 04:55
one? Let me give you one right off the 04:57
bat. I love this is more consulting 04:58
session than podcast cuz I'm enjoying it 05:00
and I I'm so pumped cuz like even in 8 05:02
seconds this is going to [ __ ] crush 05:04
for you. You ready? 05:06
Yes. I need it. 05:07
Your clear charisma and sense of humor 05:09
is one of your biggest attributes. You 05:14
know that besides your hair, 05:16
you know that your personality is what 05:18
you got, right? 05:20
Right. Yes. 05:21
I can literally 05:22
It's all I got. It's all I We've 05:23
literally been here for eight minutes 05:25
and it's as clear to me as the sun will 05:26
come up tomorrow. Here's what I want you 05:28
to try. 05:30
Okay, 05:31
the next time you have a piece of 05:32
content that does well, that's a jab, 05:33
right? A high value piece of content. 05:34
I want you to then take that piece of 05:37
content back home and post-produce it. I 05:39
want you to take that piece of content 05:42
and then slightly tweak it. 05:45
Let me tell you how I would do that. I 05:49
would have whatever video you have that 05:51
did well. I want you to then make an 05:53
edit where you your face you you 05:55
me 05:58
in the bottom lefthand corner with a 05:59
cutout as long as the bottom lefthand 06:01
corner wasn't critical to the piece of 06:03
content. 06:04
Mhm. 06:05
I want your little head to be in there 06:06
while the video is running. This is the 06:08
edit I want you to make. 06:09
I'm doing it. 06:11
You're literally I'm going to reenact it 06:12
here. I obviously for people that are 06:14
listening, you won't be able to get 06:16
this, but follow me. Everyone, if you're 06:17
watching visually, this will be easy. 06:19
This is literally what you're doing 06:20
while that video is playing. You're 06:21
like, 06:23
"Yeah." 06:26
And then you're pointing up. You're 06:26
pointing a finger to the audience 06:29
saying, "Wait for me. I'm about to jump 06:30
in. We're all watching this video." And 06:32
then you're going to go, "Buy some 06:34
[ __ ] tickets for me for this event." 06:36
That's it. In their face. I love it. 06:40
And it will work. Here's why. that piece 06:42
of content already proved that the first 06:44
three seconds, the fir the next 10 06:46
seconds work, right? So, you know you 06:49
have something that works. Now, you've 06:51
added an extra element of intrigue of 06:52
like, what the hell is this dude's head 06:54
doing in the bottom lefthand corner? 06:56
Then, you're going to obviously not do 06:58
exactly what I said. You're going to be 06:59
like, hey, thanks for watching that. 07:00
What this is about is our big event on 07:01
October 19th. There's a link. So, you're 07:03
going to take the original piece of 07:05
content that did well organically, 07:07
showed consumer relevance and interest. 07:08
You're going to DJ it. Why do you think 07:10
all these EDM guys had the hits? They 07:13
[ __ ] and what Puff Daddy's career was 07:15
built on. I know that might not be 07:17
politically correct these days, but the 07:18
sampling these were already [ __ ] 07:20
hits, 07:22
right? 07:22
You were sampling your own hit. 07:23
And if you see where I'm going, I like 07:26
the I like the analogy of sampling 07:29
because if I was I have no music 07:31
abilities. I couldn't even sing a bar 07:33
mitzvah. Uh uh I like the I like the 07:34
idea of pulling in the winner and just 07:36
tweaking a little bit and that's what I 07:39
amplified. That's the plan. You're 07:40
you're taking a jab and you're 07:42
converting it into a right hook using my 07:43
old terminology. Yeah. And if you run 07:45
media against the right kind of target 07:47
against creative that has already 07:50
clearly worked where you're editing it 07:51
in a way that didn't disrupt what made 07:53
it work, you will [ __ ] crush. 07:56
All right. I love that. And you know, 07:58
you touched on something and and I I 08:00
believe attribution is total garbage. Uh 08:03
you touched on last touch. It's garbage, 08:06
right? Because for 20 years, Google got 08:07
credit for things that other mediums 08:09
were doing because Google became de 08:11
facto place you would go. Kudos to 08:14
Google, great business. But people 08:16
overinvested in search because I would 08:18
see a I'm looking at a billboard in 08:21
Manhattan right now. I would see that 08:22
and it would be a second and then I 08:24
would go to [ __ ] Google and be like 08:26
medical club 49 or whatever. And then 08:29
back home at marketing land they're 08:31
like, "Oh, Google worked." And the 08:33
billboard doesn't. 08:35
Yeah. It's total crap. Like I spend a 08:36
lot of time in the world. I I do a lot 08:39
of different media, but one of the media 08:41
is email. And and my clients like, "Oh, 08:42
these email campaigns are crushing it 08:44
compared to whatever." I go, "Even 08:46
though it's not doesn't help my 08:48
business." I'm like, "No, the email 08:49
didn't work. It was just the last thing 08:50
they got the last stop on the train. 08:52
You're assigning value to to 08:54
That's because brother, there's a big 08:56
confusion in our industry about what is 08:58
sales and what is marketing, 09:01
right? Email and Google Adwords are much 09:04
closer to sales DNA 09:07
than organic social content, which is 09:11
much more similar to what worked in the 09:13
50s and 60s on television. You had the 09:16
attention of the consumer on a medium. 09:18
You story told and it affected them. 09:21
What 09:25
what people don't understand is that 09:28
sales is what you do when you're not 09:30
good at branding and marketing. 09:32
And listen, I love being a salesman. In 09:34
fact, you may know this since you it 09:36
sounds like you've gone a deep dive. 09:37
Probably the thing I'm most excited 09:39
about in the world right now is live 09:40
social shopping. 09:42
Yeah, 09:43
that's [ __ ] QVC. That's sales to the 09:43
ump. I believe in sales and marketing 09:45
the most. However, I did not buy in the 09:48
80s and 90s and 2000s all that Nike 09:51
stuff cuz somebody last touch attributed 09:54
me, somebody cold called me, Nike sent 09:56
me an email. I bought it because of 09:59
brand. Nobody's buying a Lebu right now 10:01
and sticking it on their [ __ ] purse 10:04
because they got cookied and we followed 10:05
them around the internet and they we 10:08
made them suffocated them to buy a 10:09
laboo. They're buying it because of 10:11
brand because if they put it on their 10:13
bag, they're in the know and they want 10:15
to feel in the know. That's called the 10:17
psychology of brand. 10:19
In a lot of ways, the the the media 10:22
that's measurable is the is the most 10:24
ridiculous, meaning like it's getting 10:27
credit for way too much just because it 10:29
happens to be measurable. 10:31
Well, now you're talking about the the 10:33
accommodation of corporate marketing, 10:35
which is really sad. We've sucked out 10:38
the creative and we've implanted the 10:40
mathematicians, which is fine. I'm a big 10:43
believer in purple. I'm not red. I'm not 10:46
blue. I'm not just art. I'm not just 10:50
math. I actually think the reason math 10:53
has gained momentum in marketing is 10:56
because the artists went too far and 10:59
like everyone who wasn't good enough to 11:02
be in Hollywood went to Madison Avenue 11:04
and used their brands money to make the 11:06
commercials that they wanted to make for 11:08
themselves, not to sell [ __ ] soap. 11:10
So, I understand why we have the era of 11:12
math. It was actually the artist's 11:14
fault. However, the problem is we are 11:16
too in the era of math right now and the 11:18
beauty is 5050. 11:21
Oh, I I I totally agree with that and I 11:23
love that. And side note, what would be 11:25
the odds of you ever walking around with 11:27
a li boooo somewhere attached to your 11:29
being? 11:31
Uh, pretty high if it was a 11:32
collaboration with V friends and Laboo. 11:34
I should have known that. I didn't know 11:37
that. That's amazing. 11:38
Only if only like I definitely am not 11:39
usually quote unquote on trend. 11:43
Occasionally I'm so me that seven years 11:45
later it becomes the trend but I am not 11:48
trendy. Um so the hi if Lubu comes 11:51
calling and says we'd like to do a Lebu 11:56
V friends collaboration now that I'm 11:58
building this Marvel Pokemon world and I 11:59
need to win in things that look like 12:02
Leubu. But otherwise, you know, it's 12:03
funny. I I get a I just did something 12:06
the other day where they were giving me 12:09
way too many flowers of like setting all 12:10
these like being on trend. And I was 12:12
like, I didn't I didn't set that train. 12:14
I didn't I wasn't on trend. Me dressing 12:15
down and me cursing was just me being 12:18
me. And then like the world evolved and 12:20
it became a little more common in the 12:23
business world. That's not me setting 12:24
the trend nor being on trend. That's 12:26
just I stepped in [ __ ] 12:28
Well, I personally thank you because 12:31
hopefully I think you actually started 12:32
the trend. So I went from wearing 12:34
button-downs and freaking khakis I don't 12:36
even own that crap anymore. So I owe you 12:38
big time. Thank I really I really am 12:41
happy for all of us. Like, and by the 12:43
way, this is the weirdest [ __ ] You want 12:45
an exclusive, Jay? I've literally had 12:47
weird feelings recently saying I want to 12:48
wear like a suit and tie proper 1950s 12:51
for a year just for the [ __ ] of it, you 12:54
know, like just for some fun. Um uh but 12:57
no, it it is nice that the casualization 13:00
of society has penetrated the work 13:03
force. I do think there's some romance 13:06
lost in that. You know, I I actually 13:08
understand people who put like dressing 13:10
like back to back to authenticity. Like 13:12
it's authentically running through my 13:15
mind that I might just want to do that 13:17
for the fun of it when I'm 90 to look 13:18
back at that era. Not not for any other 13:20
reason. I love the people right now that 13:23
are overly dressed because I'm like, 13:25
good for you. Like that's your [ __ ] 13:27
jam. And in fact, just like tight 13:28
clothes and baggy clothes pendulum 13:30
swing. I'd be shocked if in 15 years we 13:32
don't see a big movement. five years, 13:36
nine years, 13 years, a big movement to 13:38
proper attire coming back because we've 13:40
all got tired of [ __ ] ball caps and 13:43
t-shirts and baggie shorts as well. So, 13:45
I could see all of it happening. 13:48
Well, I'm doubling down. We go men's 13:50
warehouse and buying equity in theirs 13:51
immediately. 13:54
Uh, but you know what you should do, 13:55
speaking of this, because it kind of 13:57
leads into it. You're you basically have 13:58
said out there that social media is kind 14:00
of dead or dying. It's really interest 14:01
media. So, like if you started an 14:02
account today, zero followers, okay, and 14:04
it was just you wearing suits like on a 14:07
Tik Tok account and you posted videos, 14:09
I'm wearing a suit today. Is the world 14:11
today because it's now what you call 14:14
interest media. Is that going to do 14:16
better than people that have followers 14:18
of a zillion followers? 14:19
It will do better if that human are you 14:22
talking about me Gary Vee or me just 14:24
like that be you Gary Vee if I wore a 14:27
suit or a random person wore suits? Like 14:29
who gives a crap? would me for sure 14:31
because once you have a platform you 14:33
have a platform hence why brand matters 14:34
but but anyone like literally a 14:37
29year-old listening right now who's 14:39
never made a piece of content if it's in 14:41
his in this scenario or hers for that 14:43
matter soul 14:45
this is what's so cool about what's 14:49
actually happening that I think a lot of 14:51
people don't see 14:52
we throw around authenticity and passion 14:55
and transparency so much and and often 14:58
Unfortunately, the people that throw it 15:01
around a lot of times are like the least 15:02
authentic. 15:04
Yeah. 15:05
But what is very clear to me as someone 15:06
who I would say is a human 15:08
anthropologist and really does spend a 15:10
shocking amount of his time watching. 15:13
I would say that if it was in my soul 15:17
that I like passionately care about 15:20
being dapper and I think there's 15:22
incredible self-esteem value when I put 15:24
on a suit and I go into Superman mode 15:28
versus when I'm Clarkhead. If that's my 15:30
essence and I can communicate that while 15:32
I'm building that account, yes, that 15:35
person will crush. If I'm doing it 15:37
because I'm listening to this podcast, 15:39
I'm like, "Oh, here's an angle." 15:40
Right? And I when you're chasing money, 15:42
if you're investing in crypto because 15:46
you think that's where the money is, if 15:47
you're investing in real estate because 15:49
you think that's where the money is, if 15:50
you're cannabis, uh, collectibles, uh, 15:51
social media marketing, influencers, AI, 15:54
if you're chasing cuz that's where you 15:56
think the money is versus quadruple 15:59
downing on what [ __ ] gets you going, 16:01
you will be vulnerable. when you triple 16:05
down on what gets you going. You know, I 16:07
my breakout moment in my career was 16:10
giving a keynote speech in 2008 or nine 16:13
in the Javit Center and I said, "If 16:16
you're a fan of Smurfs, smurf it up. If 16:18
you love ALF, start making content about 16:21
ALF." At the time, it was about blogging 16:23
and doing Twitter. Now, this interest 16:25
media algorithm-led social media economy 16:28
where the attention of full society is 16:30
overscaled on social. 16:33
If you love BonJovi 16:36
and you just go [ __ ] ham on Bon Joy 16:39
content, the fact that in for 15 years 16:42
of social, you would have 80 followers 16:45
after a year and now the fact that when 16:47
I post my third Bonjovi video, it will 16:50
find people that have a propensity to 16:53
give a [ __ ] about Bonjovi because that's 16:55
how deep the AI is now. 16:57
That I have 800 followers on that third 17:00
post and I'm starting to build my world. 17:02
That is a level of opportunity for 17:05
society, for happiness and commercial 17:07
success. That is a level of nirvana that 17:11
I think people cannot see in this moment 17:14
where we've decided to cloud social as 17:17
bad, not good. 17:20
Well, along those lines, and I couldn't 17:22
agree with you more that this idea of 17:24
interest media that forget about your 17:25
follower count, follower account is only 17:27
social proof to decide whether or not 17:29
you know, 17:30
yeah, there's some brand there's some 17:31
lingering brand equity on it. I do 17:32
believe within a half decade the 17:34
following count might not even be 17:36
publicly seen. I think it will continue 17:37
to diminish in importance in this rise 17:39
of AI interest media algorithms. 17:42
Yeah. And I and I think that's a good 17:46
thing. Um 17:47
well I would say well I would say it's a 17:49
good thing for day one people, 17:51
right? 17:53
I would say for people like myself 17:54
who've bled for 15 years to build a fan 17:55
base, it'd be like email marketing. 17:58
Okay. Yay. you know, you spent your 18:01
whole life building a million person 18:02
email list and now the market says and 18:04
Google comes out and says now with 18:06
Gmail, everyone has a million. You know, 18:07
I'm sure the people that work their 18:09
tails off. But I agree with you. I think 18:10
merit should reign. I, you know, and I 18:12
think I understand what you're saying 18:15
and and from a place of people dwelling 18:16
that they haven't followed what I've 18:18
been talking about for 15 years and they 18:20
missed the boat. Good news. You miss 18:21
nothing. 18:23
Well, along those lines though, because 18:24
in marketing there's always this thing 18:26
best practices, which is nails on 18:27
chalkboard. literally hate the phrase 18:29
best practices. I said by the time it 18:31
becomes a best practice, it's an 18:33
animated piece of crap. Um and and the 18:34
problem is with this idea of interest 18:37
media instead of social media. If you 18:38
try to say what are the best practices 18:41
and then you follow them then you're not 18:43
going to be playing the interest media 18:47
game. Isn't is that I mean do you think 18:48
best practice is pretty much crap? 18:50
Yeah. Listen, I'm a I'm a fan of where 18:52
you're going, I think of this like 18:54
imposttor syndrome. Like that term 18:56
drives me crazy because we came up with 18:58
a new term 19:00
for the word insecure. 19:01
Yeah. 19:03
We put makeup we put makeup on the word 19:04
insecure. I think best practices is 19:06
makeup on the real world which is you 19:08
need to be strategic at all times. 19:11
Right. 19:12
So I I get where you're going and I 19:14
actually am a buyer that once it hits 19:16
that status in corporations it's garbage 19:18
often. 19:20
Every the only reason Vayner Media is 19:22
dominating is on a daily basis. All I 19:25
care about is the essence of what is the 19:28
best things you can do to maximize 19:30
relevance and awareness to create 19:34
consideration to create purchase and 19:36
that I call pack inside of Vayner Media 19:38
platforms algorithms and culture. Right? 19:41
First you need to know which platforms 19:44
have the attention. What's Spotify 19:45
versus Substack versus Snapchat 19:48
spotlight versus Facebook glue proper 19:50
infeed versus Instagram versus Tik Tok 19:52
versus Tik Tok shop versus Tik Tok 19:55
affiliate versus LinkedIn versus 19:56
LinkedIn. Like that is truly what I 19:58
think I've committed my career to and 20:02
has set me apart. Next, algorithms 20:03
within everything I just mentioned and 20:06
the 30 other things I didn't mention, 20:08
Tik Tok, YouTube Shorts, Twitter, 20:09
what how do the algorithms work? How 20:12
what creative gets attention? What 20:14
formats? What are what are the things 20:16
that will work? How important are the 20:17
three seconds versus not? A lot of 20:19
people became obsessed with the first 20:21
three seconds. They don't realize the 20:23
10th second has now become uncomfortably 20:24
important. Right? Things like that. And 20:27
then finally, culture. Do you know 20:29
what's going on with Lebu? Do you know 20:31
what Cindy Sweeny's going through right 20:32
now with her campaign? Do you know, you 20:34
know, do you know what's going on with 20:36
Aaron Rogers at the Steelers? Do you 20:38
understand if Sexy Red and Ice Spice are 20:39
as hot as they were a year ago or not? 20:42
Do you understand what's going on with 20:44
Fortnite and Roblox? Are you aware of 20:46
what the number one show is on Netflix 20:48
or are you not? Do you know what's going 20:51
on with Denim? Are you aware that Gap is 20:53
coming back or are you a not? Do you 20:56
understand that Kith has become the 20:58
establishment and things you know that 20:59
are coming up whether it's Mad Happy or 21:02
the Nude Project? Like do you know [ __ ] 21:04
or don't you? to me. In fact, in our 21:06
industry, brand strategists are going to 21:08
get replaced by pop culture strategists, 21:11
right? Current consumer relevance 21:13
strategists. And so that's how I think 21:16
about that, brother. So whether you call 21:19
it best practices or best strategies or 21:20
strategic blueprints or, you know, I 21:23
call it, ironically, I call it day 21:25
trading attention to some degree, right? 21:27
Like to me I'm trying to understand the 21:29
framework of pack and I believe that the 21:31
liquid deaths and the poppies and gaps 21:34
reassurgence and all these things if you 21:37
look under the hood they are the people 21:39
doing the things I'm talking about and 21:42
everybody else is not and that is why we 21:43
are seeing catastrophic 21:46
and super stupendous remarketing uh 21:49
opportunities. When I say remarketing, I 21:54
mean not remarketing. I mean market 21:55
shifts on who the leaders are, who's 21:57
doing revenue, who's declining in 21:59
revenue. We're seeing extremes of growth 22:00
and declines that we have not seen 22:03
historically in Fortune 5000 land 22:05
because the game is so complicated now 22:08
and most people have no [ __ ] clue. I 22:11
I I couldn't agree more. It's almost 22:14
like the brands that move at the at the 22:16
speed of culture are the ones that 22:17
really are getting that that attention. 22:20
You know, you can't just just just try 22:23
to do all the different tactics. You 22:25
like you just rled off a million 22:26
different things. Half the people 22:28
listening and never even heard of Kith, 22:29
let alone know that Kith is now part of 22:31
the establishment. I mean, that is how 22:32
in tune you need to be, right? I mean, 22:34
you need to be in it to be advanced in 22:36
all of it. 22:39
The end. I I would argue that one of the 22:40
biggest things that's going on at Vayner 22:42
Media is as we go into 2026, I keep 22:44
talking internally with my leaders. 22:47
First time I'm saying this publicly, I 22:48
want to give you a scoop. Like there's 22:49
going to be who are going to be the 22:51
winners of the AI era AOS, right? And 22:52
all I keep saying internally is like 22:56
we're going to be the winner of the AI 22:57
era AOS. What do you need to do to be a 22:59
great agency in that era? I would say 23:02
pop culture strategy is at the tippy 23:04
top. 23:06
Agreed. That's amazing. Yeah, I listen I 23:06
watch way too much reality TV. So I'm 23:10
I'm in a good place. So I'm excited. 23:11
But you are in a good place. It's funny. 23:14
Nema Nema who works at Bayer X director 23:16
and strategist and creative you know he 23:18
was on a reality show he's deep in the 23:20
Bravo culture we talk about all the time 23:22
when we look at the metrics like 23:24
understanding what's going on with Love 23:26
Island the last 90 days and 23:28
understanding how to incorporate it into 23:29
your ethos whether it's product 23:31
marketing comms uh engagement even 23:34
something we call Cassie commenting as 23:37
creative leaving comments as a brand you 23:40
know in certain places on the internet 23:42
um was incredibly fruitful for business 23:45
results. 23:47
Yeah. 23:48
And when I say that what I just rattled 23:48
off both Love Island deep cut Love 23:51
Island knowledge and the concept of Cass 23:53
C comments as creative leaving comments 23:55
on Love Island, 23:57
Yep. 23:58
the content as a brand when you know not 23:59
just haha but you make a joke that's an 24:01
inside baseball love island joke. When I 24:03
say that as business impact, it is not 24:06
lost on me that 99.99999% 24:08
of people in Madison Avenue Fortune 5000 24:11
land are not fully like either don't 24:13
believe or don't even understand what 24:16
I'm saying there. This is the great 24:18
opportunity of the Madison Avenue 24:20
ecosystem. We are about to reset at a 24:23
level that people have no comprehension 24:25
of. And the people that are actually 24:27
into popular culture, and when I say 24:29
popular culture, by the way, I mean 24:31
every one of the niches. What do 60 to 24:33
80year-old Mexicanamean 24:36
grandmas give a [ __ ] about right now? If 24:39
you don't know those Nutellas and Nollas 24:41
and all those things, like if you don't 24:44
know those things, right, then you don't 24:46
know how to market to them. 24:48
Totally. I I got to tell you, I was 24:50
blown away when I saw where I live that 24:52
there were Love Island watch parties at 24:54
bars and restaurants in person. I was 24:56
like, every marketer needs to lock in on 24:59
this crap. This is not like just some 25:01
show on peacock. This is like cultural 25:03
movement here. It is wild. 25:06
If you knew like I did, which is why I 25:09
did all those podcasts. This is not 25:11
where I went with it for me personally. 25:12
But if you knew six years ago that 25:14
comedians skewing right 25:19
were going to become cultural icons, SEC 25:22
frat boy like culture. Well, and you had 25:26
a brand to sell to 15 to 35 year old 25:29
males, you would [ __ ] annihilate. 25:32
Yeah. I mean, it's like Hakua, how the 25:35
hell it's like if you knew that that 25:37
type of person was going to resonate 25:38
with America. It's like, yeah, that's 25:40
what you need. 25:42
Let me take that down a little bit, 25:43
though. That was a viral moment, right? 25:44
We've seen that before, right? Like 25:47
double rainbow, the 25:49
Yeah. Cold play, whatever. 25:50
Yeah. I'm talking about You know what's 25:52
so funny? We just did something that 25:53
might help a ton of marketers. me 25:55
talking about the overall genre of 25:57
southern SEC sorority frat 26:00
uh comedians, the Theo Bonds, the 26:05
Schultz's like like Shane Gillis. I 26:07
talked about a half decade movement 26:09
that a brand could really really lean 26:14
into. 26:17
You talked about rightfully so. I'm glad 26:18
you did this about a micro moment of a 26:20
trend. Many brands that we work with and 26:23
friends that I have that don't work with 26:26
me, but I have a lot of relationships in 26:27
the industry. They get worried that 26:28
everything is a hot tua thing, Gary. I 26:31
don't want to follow trends cuz it's 26:33
over. I'm like, "No, no. A hua moment to 26:34
your point or whatever other moment 26:37
becomes the seed of an eight-year 26:40
movement." 26:42
Right. So, I'm recapping a six-year 26:44
movement that has happened 26:47
and you're referencing a viral moment 26:50
that could have, you know, obviously 26:53
someone could have jumped in there 26:55
quickly, done something, but they're two 26:56
very different things. But unless you 26:58
play the hawk to aa thing and understand 27:00
the hakua thing, you'll never get the 27:01
long-term thing if you're on the 27:04
sidelines. Uh, I would I don't know how 27:05
to surf or I'm a surfer, but I feel this 27:08
could be a good analogy. How the [ __ ] 27:10
are you gonna catch the big wave if 27:12
you're not in the [ __ ] water trying 27:14
to catch like waiting for it and 27:16
catching all the little waves? 27:17
100%. And they all kind of tie into each 27:19
other. 27:21
I'm sorry. Hold on. I got a clip that I 27:21
need that for my presentation. I like 27:22
that. That's it right there. If a 27:24
brand's scared because they don't want 27:26
to Gary, we don't want to waste our 27:27
times jumping on every trend that lasts 27:28
an hour. Well, what about when it 27:30
becomes the trend 27:31
and they marry each other? They're tied 27:35
to each other. 27:36
They're ti deeply tied to each other. 27:37
It's, you know, it's you got to eat the 27:39
amuse bouch and the appetizer and then 27:41
the [ __ ] main meal and then [ __ ] 27:43
let's have some dessert and then [ __ ] if 27:45
it's going well like some after dinner 27:46
drinks. But like, you know, like da da d 27:48
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d duh. 27:49
So like I don't understand I do 27:50
understand actually it's we started this 27:52
podcast this way. The last 70 years of 27:54
business in marketing land on Madison 27:56
Avenue, we have used good working media 27:59
dollars to disguise bad creative, but we 28:02
couldn't see it because it was 28:05
predominantly done on television and on 28:06
billboards and in print. And now we live 28:08
in an era where we can see it. And man, 28:11
does that need an adjustment. 28:14
Wow. That is um I think that's so 28:16
powerful for so many people to hear. So 28:17
I got one last question. I'm going to 28:19
lose my entire audience, but I mean we 28:21
grew up we're same age. Uh I grew up in 28:23
Long Island and moved down to Florida, 28:25
but I know you're a huge Jets fan. 28:27
Hopefully they have a good year. Last 28:28
year was brutal. 28:30
Uh but Knicks 1994. 28:31
Yes. 28:34
New York Knicks. 28:34
Um I want to know and that was brutal 28:36
losing that game seven losing that 28:37
Houston Rockets. But my guy on that team 28:40
was Anthony Mason. I mean were you just 28:42
an allout like John Starks or Euing guy? 28:44
Like who was your Knicks guy back in the 28:47
90s? I was your guy. 28:50
So, let me break this down cuz now 28:53
you're just really making me happy. 28:54
Couple things. I was I was a senior. 28:56
Were Did you graduate high school? What 28:58
year? 29:00
94. 29:00
Me, too. So, you and I lived the same 29:01
[ __ ] life. 29:03
Yes. 29:04
It the basketball gods couldn't have 29:05
been nicer to us. 29:07
Yeah. Amazing. 29:08
The Knicks during our high school years 29:08
were [ __ ] awesome. And we were 29:10
building up to this crescendo moment of 29:12
94. 29:14
Jordan at MSG. Amazing. 29:14
Couple things. So to answer you 29:17
directly, it is Patrick Euing. I will 29:19
die on this hill. I hate how much Nick 29:21
fans did not appreciate him enough. 29:23
Yes. 29:26
To your point, my obsession with Anthony 29:26
Mason, he made all of us little white 29:29
guys feel tough. 29:31
Yes, that's true. 29:32
Like I shaved words into the side of my 29:33
head. That's how much I like Anthony 29:35
Mason. 29:37
Of course we like Starks, but I'll tell 29:38
you a deep cut that you're going to 29:40
love. 29:42
Oak Tree. 29:42
Well, of course. Of course. I'm giving 29:43
you a deep cut. When we got Xavier 29:45
McDaniels. 29:47
Oh yeah. X-Men. 29:48
When that happened, I walked through the 29:49
halls of my high school like this for 29:51
weeks. 29:53
I love it. 29:54
Be the X Factor. I went up to all my 29:55
[ __ ] bandwagon Bulls fans and they 29:57
were everywhere. 29:59
I love it. 30:00
[ __ ] losers that lived in New York 30:01
and New Jersey and Long Island who were 30:03
Bulls fans because they were so insecure 30:05
and not capable of being winners by 30:08
themselves. They had to drift off the 30:10
equity of a team in Chicago to feel like 30:12
they were a winner. These [ __ ] [ __ ] 30:15
faces. 30:17
I went up to all of them sophomore, 30:19
junior year and being like, he's the X 30:21
factor. We couldn't get over to Jordan 30:22
Hump and then, you know, look, game six 30:24
was devastating obviously. 30:26
Yes. 30:28
With Nick's horn uh Rockets. 30:28
Yeah. 30:31
But game seven, so we lose that game. As 30:32
you know, it was a nip and tuck game and 30:34
we could never get there, right? 30:36
Yeah. 30:37
I cried. I was se 94. I was seven. I was 30:39
18. I was 18 years old. I cried. 30:43
And I mean cried 30:49
for three straight hours 30:51
in my bedroom after we lost game seven 30:54
in a I've only I mean I cried like a 30:58
sevenyear-old boy. 31:02
Yeah. 31:03
And honestly like even right now you can 31:03
see my energy has gone way down. Like 31:05
it's in the pit. Like I feel like I'm 31:07
there right now. It was devastating. 31:08
It was brutal. I mean, brutal. I love 31:11
that team. I love that team with a 31:15
passion. All of them. I mean, every all 31:17
of them. 31:20
Derek Harper, Ronaldo Black. 31:20
Oh, yeah. Charles Smith. I even love 31:22
Trent Tucker used to like do the 31:24
three-point contest and crutch it. You 31:25
know, 31:27
that was earlier, but that was great. 31:28
Those earlier guys, Johnny Newman, 31:30
Strickland, those guys, you know, Kenny. 31:32
Yes. Oh, Kenny Sky. Love those guys. 31:36
Uh, anyway, we've This has been amazing. 31:39
Incredible. Uh, I'm a bigger fan of you 31:41
now than even before. Uh, everybody go 31:44
out there. If you haven't bought 31:46
already, buy Day Trading Attention. I'm 31:47
not just saying this cuz he's here. I'm 31:49
telling you, this thing breaks down 31:51
every kind of content format. It is 31:53
incredible book, Day Trading Attention. 31:56
Go out there and get it. Gary, you are 31:58
awesome. Thank you for doing this and 32:00
appreciate a lot of fun. I wish you 32:02
well. 32:03
[Music] 32:05

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[English]
There's a big confusion in our industry
about what is sales and what is
marketing.
Are the blades any good?
No.
Sales is what you do when you're not
good at branding and marketing. Email
and Google Adwords are much closer to
sales DNA than organic social content
which is much more similar to what
worked on television. You had the
attention of the consumer on a medium.
You story told and it affected them. I
did not buy in the 80s and 90s and 2000s
all that Nike stuff because somebody
last touch attributed me. Somebody cold
called me. Nike sent me an email. I
bought it because of brand.
I have this events business. We put all
events and we're doing something stupid.
Okay. So, what we do is we'll go out
there and we'll put ads on social media
content on social media, Instagram,
LinkedIn, whatever. And mostly when
they're not doing well, we boost them
with ad dollars to try to almost hide
this crappy creative that we've made is
amplification
of paid ads on social media epically
stupid. So, first of all, the fact that
you asked that question in the way that
you asked that question, I wish you
could I wish you actually did put a USB
in me and and see what was going on with
my chemicals because my heart smiled so
hard because I've been very loudly and
effectively but not directly enough.
This is something I've literally thought
about this summer, which is this fall I
need to make black and white direct
content that the single stupidest thing
in the world of marketing and business
and pop culture is amplifying
content that clearly did not do well
because it didn't do well organically
because a you're trying to convert
something like ticket sales or b cuz
you're so deeply insecure and you don't
want something that has 800 views And so
you want 40,000 views because you are
literally taking money and throwing it
into a garbage and then lighting a match
and burning it to the ground. So yes,
you are doing the single worst thing on
earth.
The fact that you now know it, whether
you saw a clip or you read it in a book
makes me so happy cuz I am desperate to
be a positive contributor in some way,
shape, or form. And it sounds like you
are now ready to no longer do that
anymore. So kudos to you. Hey everybody.
I know you're a minute into the video on
YouTube. I'm not going to keep you long,
but I've got to tell you about
garyb.com/stan.
Stanto, an incredible tech stack for
creator, entrepreneurs, and
entrepreneurial creators is literally
the tech stack based on what I wrote in
Crush It and Crushing It. And really the
thing almost all of you are trying to
build. So, if you are one of those
people, go to the GaryVee challenge that
I've partnered up with this investment I
made in Stan's store. I believe in this.
I believe in it for you. You'll see why
I love it. garyve.com/stan.
Go check it out. Now, back to the video.
Well, okay, that makes me feel really
good. Other than the being stupid part,
which I agree with and my wife would
agree with. Um, but here's the part that
So, I read the book. I love the book and
I'm here's the part I'm confused by. So,
one of the things you're really known
for and how I got all hooked on on your
content is this idea of jab, jab, jab,
right hook. Meaning, for people out
there don't know, Gary's really coined
this whole thing of where you you give,
you give, you give, whe you know, with
your content, it's you're providing
value. You're providing value, providing
value, and then you hit with this hook
and say, "By the way, why don't you work
with me or buy this thing or do
whatever."
And the key there is you ask, you don't
take. I always like to clarify here. You
give, you give, you give, and then you
ask. And when they do not deliver on
your ask, you do not feel bad or sad or
mad at them. Very key nuance to my model
that I'm passionate about. Right? Like
the entitlement of thinking just because
you've given a bunch of good content
that someone's going to buy your sneaker
or your wine or your trading card or
anything else that other people sell is
audacious and manipulative. The concept
of give, give, give is brand and then
you're going to convert a certain part
of that audience. So yes, I'm deeply
passionate about that. So herd go ahead.
So, but a lot of times we were putting
content out there and you have your
winners and losers. And in my case,
we're amplifying losers because we don't
want them to be losers. The problem is,
right, the problem is our jabs are
winners. I mean, they're winners because
they're like value. So, the thing, but
the value ones, like if I put out a
piece of content and it does really
well, that one's not asking for
anything. So, it's not converting to
pipeline or sales that fast. Not black
and white attribution.
Yes.
Subconsciously it is.
Right.
Right. Like that's called brand. One is
sales, one is brand. So yes, heard and I
know where you're going. Keep going. So
there's the question. So now what?
So now so I do I do I amplify the
winners that may not be the ones
converting to sales or do I amplify
one? Let me give you one right off the
bat. I love this is more consulting
session than podcast cuz I'm enjoying it
and I I'm so pumped cuz like even in 8
seconds this is going to [ __ ] crush
for you. You ready?
Yes. I need it.
Your clear charisma and sense of humor
is one of your biggest attributes. You
know that besides your hair,
you know that your personality is what
you got, right?
Right. Yes.
I can literally
It's all I got. It's all I We've
literally been here for eight minutes
and it's as clear to me as the sun will
come up tomorrow. Here's what I want you
to try.
Okay,
the next time you have a piece of
content that does well, that's a jab,
right? A high value piece of content.
I want you to then take that piece of
content back home and post-produce it. I
want you to take that piece of content
and then slightly tweak it.
Let me tell you how I would do that. I
would have whatever video you have that
did well. I want you to then make an
edit where you your face you you
me
in the bottom lefthand corner with a
cutout as long as the bottom lefthand
corner wasn't critical to the piece of
content.
Mhm.
I want your little head to be in there
while the video is running. This is the
edit I want you to make.
I'm doing it.
You're literally I'm going to reenact it
here. I obviously for people that are
listening, you won't be able to get
this, but follow me. Everyone, if you're
watching visually, this will be easy.
This is literally what you're doing
while that video is playing. You're
like,
"Yeah."
And then you're pointing up. You're
pointing a finger to the audience
saying, "Wait for me. I'm about to jump
in. We're all watching this video." And
then you're going to go, "Buy some
[ __ ] tickets for me for this event."
That's it. In their face. I love it.
And it will work. Here's why. that piece
of content already proved that the first
three seconds, the fir the next 10
seconds work, right? So, you know you
have something that works. Now, you've
added an extra element of intrigue of
like, what the hell is this dude's head
doing in the bottom lefthand corner?
Then, you're going to obviously not do
exactly what I said. You're going to be
like, hey, thanks for watching that.
What this is about is our big event on
October 19th. There's a link. So, you're
going to take the original piece of
content that did well organically,
showed consumer relevance and interest.
You're going to DJ it. Why do you think
all these EDM guys had the hits? They
[ __ ] and what Puff Daddy's career was
built on. I know that might not be
politically correct these days, but the
sampling these were already [ __ ]
hits,
right?
You were sampling your own hit.
And if you see where I'm going, I like
the I like the analogy of sampling
because if I was I have no music
abilities. I couldn't even sing a bar
mitzvah. Uh uh I like the I like the
idea of pulling in the winner and just
tweaking a little bit and that's what I
amplified. That's the plan. You're
you're taking a jab and you're
converting it into a right hook using my
old terminology. Yeah. And if you run
media against the right kind of target
against creative that has already
clearly worked where you're editing it
in a way that didn't disrupt what made
it work, you will [ __ ] crush.
All right. I love that. And you know,
you touched on something and and I I
believe attribution is total garbage. Uh
you touched on last touch. It's garbage,
right? Because for 20 years, Google got
credit for things that other mediums
were doing because Google became de
facto place you would go. Kudos to
Google, great business. But people
overinvested in search because I would
see a I'm looking at a billboard in
Manhattan right now. I would see that
and it would be a second and then I
would go to [ __ ] Google and be like
medical club 49 or whatever. And then
back home at marketing land they're
like, "Oh, Google worked." And the
billboard doesn't.
Yeah. It's total crap. Like I spend a
lot of time in the world. I I do a lot
of different media, but one of the media
is email. And and my clients like, "Oh,
these email campaigns are crushing it
compared to whatever." I go, "Even
though it's not doesn't help my
business." I'm like, "No, the email
didn't work. It was just the last thing
they got the last stop on the train.
You're assigning value to to
That's because brother, there's a big
confusion in our industry about what is
sales and what is marketing,
right? Email and Google Adwords are much
closer to sales DNA
than organic social content, which is
much more similar to what worked in the
50s and 60s on television. You had the
attention of the consumer on a medium.
You story told and it affected them.
What
what people don't understand is that
sales is what you do when you're not
good at branding and marketing.
And listen, I love being a salesman. In
fact, you may know this since you it
sounds like you've gone a deep dive.
Probably the thing I'm most excited
about in the world right now is live
social shopping.
Yeah,
that's [ __ ] QVC. That's sales to the
ump. I believe in sales and marketing
the most. However, I did not buy in the
80s and 90s and 2000s all that Nike
stuff cuz somebody last touch attributed
me, somebody cold called me, Nike sent
me an email. I bought it because of
brand. Nobody's buying a Lebu right now
and sticking it on their [ __ ] purse
because they got cookied and we followed
them around the internet and they we
made them suffocated them to buy a
laboo. They're buying it because of
brand because if they put it on their
bag, they're in the know and they want
to feel in the know. That's called the
psychology of brand.
In a lot of ways, the the the media
that's measurable is the is the most
ridiculous, meaning like it's getting
credit for way too much just because it
happens to be measurable.
Well, now you're talking about the the
accommodation of corporate marketing,
which is really sad. We've sucked out
the creative and we've implanted the
mathematicians, which is fine. I'm a big
believer in purple. I'm not red. I'm not
blue. I'm not just art. I'm not just
math. I actually think the reason math
has gained momentum in marketing is
because the artists went too far and
like everyone who wasn't good enough to
be in Hollywood went to Madison Avenue
and used their brands money to make the
commercials that they wanted to make for
themselves, not to sell [ __ ] soap.
So, I understand why we have the era of
math. It was actually the artist's
fault. However, the problem is we are
too in the era of math right now and the
beauty is 5050.
Oh, I I I totally agree with that and I
love that. And side note, what would be
the odds of you ever walking around with
a li boooo somewhere attached to your
being?
Uh, pretty high if it was a
collaboration with V friends and Laboo.
I should have known that. I didn't know
that. That's amazing.
Only if only like I definitely am not
usually quote unquote on trend.
Occasionally I'm so me that seven years
later it becomes the trend but I am not
trendy. Um so the hi if Lubu comes
calling and says we'd like to do a Lebu
V friends collaboration now that I'm
building this Marvel Pokemon world and I
need to win in things that look like
Leubu. But otherwise, you know, it's
funny. I I get a I just did something
the other day where they were giving me
way too many flowers of like setting all
these like being on trend. And I was
like, I didn't I didn't set that train.
I didn't I wasn't on trend. Me dressing
down and me cursing was just me being
me. And then like the world evolved and
it became a little more common in the
business world. That's not me setting
the trend nor being on trend. That's
just I stepped in [ __ ]
Well, I personally thank you because
hopefully I think you actually started
the trend. So I went from wearing
button-downs and freaking khakis I don't
even own that crap anymore. So I owe you
big time. Thank I really I really am
happy for all of us. Like, and by the
way, this is the weirdest [ __ ] You want
an exclusive, Jay? I've literally had
weird feelings recently saying I want to
wear like a suit and tie proper 1950s
for a year just for the [ __ ] of it, you
know, like just for some fun. Um uh but
no, it it is nice that the casualization
of society has penetrated the work
force. I do think there's some romance
lost in that. You know, I I actually
understand people who put like dressing
like back to back to authenticity. Like
it's authentically running through my
mind that I might just want to do that
for the fun of it when I'm 90 to look
back at that era. Not not for any other
reason. I love the people right now that
are overly dressed because I'm like,
good for you. Like that's your [ __ ]
jam. And in fact, just like tight
clothes and baggy clothes pendulum
swing. I'd be shocked if in 15 years we
don't see a big movement. five years,
nine years, 13 years, a big movement to
proper attire coming back because we've
all got tired of [ __ ] ball caps and
t-shirts and baggie shorts as well. So,
I could see all of it happening.
Well, I'm doubling down. We go men's
warehouse and buying equity in theirs
immediately.
Uh, but you know what you should do,
speaking of this, because it kind of
leads into it. You're you basically have
said out there that social media is kind
of dead or dying. It's really interest
media. So, like if you started an
account today, zero followers, okay, and
it was just you wearing suits like on a
Tik Tok account and you posted videos,
I'm wearing a suit today. Is the world
today because it's now what you call
interest media. Is that going to do
better than people that have followers
of a zillion followers?
It will do better if that human are you
talking about me Gary Vee or me just
like that be you Gary Vee if I wore a
suit or a random person wore suits? Like
who gives a crap? would me for sure
because once you have a platform you
have a platform hence why brand matters
but but anyone like literally a
29year-old listening right now who's
never made a piece of content if it's in
his in this scenario or hers for that
matter soul
this is what's so cool about what's
actually happening that I think a lot of
people don't see
we throw around authenticity and passion
and transparency so much and and often
Unfortunately, the people that throw it
around a lot of times are like the least
authentic.
Yeah.
But what is very clear to me as someone
who I would say is a human
anthropologist and really does spend a
shocking amount of his time watching.
I would say that if it was in my soul
that I like passionately care about
being dapper and I think there's
incredible self-esteem value when I put
on a suit and I go into Superman mode
versus when I'm Clarkhead. If that's my
essence and I can communicate that while
I'm building that account, yes, that
person will crush. If I'm doing it
because I'm listening to this podcast,
I'm like, "Oh, here's an angle."
Right? And I when you're chasing money,
if you're investing in crypto because
you think that's where the money is, if
you're investing in real estate because
you think that's where the money is, if
you're cannabis, uh, collectibles, uh,
social media marketing, influencers, AI,
if you're chasing cuz that's where you
think the money is versus quadruple
downing on what [ __ ] gets you going,
you will be vulnerable. when you triple
down on what gets you going. You know, I
my breakout moment in my career was
giving a keynote speech in 2008 or nine
in the Javit Center and I said, "If
you're a fan of Smurfs, smurf it up. If
you love ALF, start making content about
ALF." At the time, it was about blogging
and doing Twitter. Now, this interest
media algorithm-led social media economy
where the attention of full society is
overscaled on social.
If you love BonJovi
and you just go [ __ ] ham on Bon Joy
content, the fact that in for 15 years
of social, you would have 80 followers
after a year and now the fact that when
I post my third Bonjovi video, it will
find people that have a propensity to
give a [ __ ] about Bonjovi because that's
how deep the AI is now.
That I have 800 followers on that third
post and I'm starting to build my world.
That is a level of opportunity for
society, for happiness and commercial
success. That is a level of nirvana that
I think people cannot see in this moment
where we've decided to cloud social as
bad, not good.
Well, along those lines, and I couldn't
agree with you more that this idea of
interest media that forget about your
follower count, follower account is only
social proof to decide whether or not
you know,
yeah, there's some brand there's some
lingering brand equity on it. I do
believe within a half decade the
following count might not even be
publicly seen. I think it will continue
to diminish in importance in this rise
of AI interest media algorithms.
Yeah. And I and I think that's a good
thing. Um
well I would say well I would say it's a
good thing for day one people,
right?
I would say for people like myself
who've bled for 15 years to build a fan
base, it'd be like email marketing.
Okay. Yay. you know, you spent your
whole life building a million person
email list and now the market says and
Google comes out and says now with
Gmail, everyone has a million. You know,
I'm sure the people that work their
tails off. But I agree with you. I think
merit should reign. I, you know, and I
think I understand what you're saying
and and from a place of people dwelling
that they haven't followed what I've
been talking about for 15 years and they
missed the boat. Good news. You miss
nothing.
Well, along those lines though, because
in marketing there's always this thing
best practices, which is nails on
chalkboard. literally hate the phrase
best practices. I said by the time it
becomes a best practice, it's an
animated piece of crap. Um and and the
problem is with this idea of interest
media instead of social media. If you
try to say what are the best practices
and then you follow them then you're not
going to be playing the interest media
game. Isn't is that I mean do you think
best practice is pretty much crap?
Yeah. Listen, I'm a I'm a fan of where
you're going, I think of this like
imposttor syndrome. Like that term
drives me crazy because we came up with
a new term
for the word insecure.
Yeah.
We put makeup we put makeup on the word
insecure. I think best practices is
makeup on the real world which is you
need to be strategic at all times.
Right.
So I I get where you're going and I
actually am a buyer that once it hits
that status in corporations it's garbage
often.
Every the only reason Vayner Media is
dominating is on a daily basis. All I
care about is the essence of what is the
best things you can do to maximize
relevance and awareness to create
consideration to create purchase and
that I call pack inside of Vayner Media
platforms algorithms and culture. Right?
First you need to know which platforms
have the attention. What's Spotify
versus Substack versus Snapchat
spotlight versus Facebook glue proper
infeed versus Instagram versus Tik Tok
versus Tik Tok shop versus Tik Tok
affiliate versus LinkedIn versus
LinkedIn. Like that is truly what I
think I've committed my career to and
has set me apart. Next, algorithms
within everything I just mentioned and
the 30 other things I didn't mention,
Tik Tok, YouTube Shorts, Twitter,
what how do the algorithms work? How
what creative gets attention? What
formats? What are what are the things
that will work? How important are the
three seconds versus not? A lot of
people became obsessed with the first
three seconds. They don't realize the
10th second has now become uncomfortably
important. Right? Things like that. And
then finally, culture. Do you know
what's going on with Lebu? Do you know
what Cindy Sweeny's going through right
now with her campaign? Do you know, you
know, do you know what's going on with
Aaron Rogers at the Steelers? Do you
understand if Sexy Red and Ice Spice are
as hot as they were a year ago or not?
Do you understand what's going on with
Fortnite and Roblox? Are you aware of
what the number one show is on Netflix
or are you not? Do you know what's going
on with Denim? Are you aware that Gap is
coming back or are you a not? Do you
understand that Kith has become the
establishment and things you know that
are coming up whether it's Mad Happy or
the Nude Project? Like do you know [ __ ]
or don't you? to me. In fact, in our
industry, brand strategists are going to
get replaced by pop culture strategists,
right? Current consumer relevance
strategists. And so that's how I think
about that, brother. So whether you call
it best practices or best strategies or
strategic blueprints or, you know, I
call it, ironically, I call it day
trading attention to some degree, right?
Like to me I'm trying to understand the
framework of pack and I believe that the
liquid deaths and the poppies and gaps
reassurgence and all these things if you
look under the hood they are the people
doing the things I'm talking about and
everybody else is not and that is why we
are seeing catastrophic
and super stupendous remarketing uh
opportunities. When I say remarketing, I
mean not remarketing. I mean market
shifts on who the leaders are, who's
doing revenue, who's declining in
revenue. We're seeing extremes of growth
and declines that we have not seen
historically in Fortune 5000 land
because the game is so complicated now
and most people have no [ __ ] clue. I
I I couldn't agree more. It's almost
like the brands that move at the at the
speed of culture are the ones that
really are getting that that attention.
You know, you can't just just just try
to do all the different tactics. You
like you just rled off a million
different things. Half the people
listening and never even heard of Kith,
let alone know that Kith is now part of
the establishment. I mean, that is how
in tune you need to be, right? I mean,
you need to be in it to be advanced in
all of it.
The end. I I would argue that one of the
biggest things that's going on at Vayner
Media is as we go into 2026, I keep
talking internally with my leaders.
First time I'm saying this publicly, I
want to give you a scoop. Like there's
going to be who are going to be the
winners of the AI era AOS, right? And
all I keep saying internally is like
we're going to be the winner of the AI
era AOS. What do you need to do to be a
great agency in that era? I would say
pop culture strategy is at the tippy
top.
Agreed. That's amazing. Yeah, I listen I
watch way too much reality TV. So I'm
I'm in a good place. So I'm excited.
But you are in a good place. It's funny.
Nema Nema who works at Bayer X director
and strategist and creative you know he
was on a reality show he's deep in the
Bravo culture we talk about all the time
when we look at the metrics like
understanding what's going on with Love
Island the last 90 days and
understanding how to incorporate it into
your ethos whether it's product
marketing comms uh engagement even
something we call Cassie commenting as
creative leaving comments as a brand you
know in certain places on the internet
um was incredibly fruitful for business
results.
Yeah.
And when I say that what I just rattled
off both Love Island deep cut Love
Island knowledge and the concept of Cass
C comments as creative leaving comments
on Love Island,
Yep.
the content as a brand when you know not
just haha but you make a joke that's an
inside baseball love island joke. When I
say that as business impact, it is not
lost on me that 99.99999%
of people in Madison Avenue Fortune 5000
land are not fully like either don't
believe or don't even understand what
I'm saying there. This is the great
opportunity of the Madison Avenue
ecosystem. We are about to reset at a
level that people have no comprehension
of. And the people that are actually
into popular culture, and when I say
popular culture, by the way, I mean
every one of the niches. What do 60 to
80year-old Mexicanamean
grandmas give a [ __ ] about right now? If
you don't know those Nutellas and Nollas
and all those things, like if you don't
know those things, right, then you don't
know how to market to them.
Totally. I I got to tell you, I was
blown away when I saw where I live that
there were Love Island watch parties at
bars and restaurants in person. I was
like, every marketer needs to lock in on
this crap. This is not like just some
show on peacock. This is like cultural
movement here. It is wild.
If you knew like I did, which is why I
did all those podcasts. This is not
where I went with it for me personally.
But if you knew six years ago that
comedians skewing right
were going to become cultural icons, SEC
frat boy like culture. Well, and you had
a brand to sell to 15 to 35 year old
males, you would [ __ ] annihilate.
Yeah. I mean, it's like Hakua, how the
hell it's like if you knew that that
type of person was going to resonate
with America. It's like, yeah, that's
what you need.
Let me take that down a little bit,
though. That was a viral moment, right?
We've seen that before, right? Like
double rainbow, the
Yeah. Cold play, whatever.
Yeah. I'm talking about You know what's
so funny? We just did something that
might help a ton of marketers. me
talking about the overall genre of
southern SEC sorority frat
uh comedians, the Theo Bonds, the
Schultz's like like Shane Gillis. I
talked about a half decade movement
that a brand could really really lean
into.
You talked about rightfully so. I'm glad
you did this about a micro moment of a
trend. Many brands that we work with and
friends that I have that don't work with
me, but I have a lot of relationships in
the industry. They get worried that
everything is a hot tua thing, Gary. I
don't want to follow trends cuz it's
over. I'm like, "No, no. A hua moment to
your point or whatever other moment
becomes the seed of an eight-year
movement."
Right. So, I'm recapping a six-year
movement that has happened
and you're referencing a viral moment
that could have, you know, obviously
someone could have jumped in there
quickly, done something, but they're two
very different things. But unless you
play the hawk to aa thing and understand
the hakua thing, you'll never get the
long-term thing if you're on the
sidelines. Uh, I would I don't know how
to surf or I'm a surfer, but I feel this
could be a good analogy. How the [ __ ]
are you gonna catch the big wave if
you're not in the [ __ ] water trying
to catch like waiting for it and
catching all the little waves?
100%. And they all kind of tie into each
other.
I'm sorry. Hold on. I got a clip that I
need that for my presentation. I like
that. That's it right there. If a
brand's scared because they don't want
to Gary, we don't want to waste our
times jumping on every trend that lasts
an hour. Well, what about when it
becomes the trend
and they marry each other? They're tied
to each other.
They're ti deeply tied to each other.
It's, you know, it's you got to eat the
amuse bouch and the appetizer and then
the [ __ ] main meal and then [ __ ]
let's have some dessert and then [ __ ] if
it's going well like some after dinner
drinks. But like, you know, like da da d
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d duh.
So like I don't understand I do
understand actually it's we started this
podcast this way. The last 70 years of
business in marketing land on Madison
Avenue, we have used good working media
dollars to disguise bad creative, but we
couldn't see it because it was
predominantly done on television and on
billboards and in print. And now we live
in an era where we can see it. And man,
does that need an adjustment.
Wow. That is um I think that's so
powerful for so many people to hear. So
I got one last question. I'm going to
lose my entire audience, but I mean we
grew up we're same age. Uh I grew up in
Long Island and moved down to Florida,
but I know you're a huge Jets fan.
Hopefully they have a good year. Last
year was brutal.
Uh but Knicks 1994.
Yes.
New York Knicks.
Um I want to know and that was brutal
losing that game seven losing that
Houston Rockets. But my guy on that team
was Anthony Mason. I mean were you just
an allout like John Starks or Euing guy?
Like who was your Knicks guy back in the
90s? I was your guy.
So, let me break this down cuz now
you're just really making me happy.
Couple things. I was I was a senior.
Were Did you graduate high school? What
year?
94.
Me, too. So, you and I lived the same
[ __ ] life.
Yes.
It the basketball gods couldn't have
been nicer to us.
Yeah. Amazing.
The Knicks during our high school years
were [ __ ] awesome. And we were
building up to this crescendo moment of
94.
Jordan at MSG. Amazing.
Couple things. So to answer you
directly, it is Patrick Euing. I will
die on this hill. I hate how much Nick
fans did not appreciate him enough.
Yes.
To your point, my obsession with Anthony
Mason, he made all of us little white
guys feel tough.
Yes, that's true.
Like I shaved words into the side of my
head. That's how much I like Anthony
Mason.
Of course we like Starks, but I'll tell
you a deep cut that you're going to
love.
Oak Tree.
Well, of course. Of course. I'm giving
you a deep cut. When we got Xavier
McDaniels.
Oh yeah. X-Men.
When that happened, I walked through the
halls of my high school like this for
weeks.
I love it.
Be the X Factor. I went up to all my
[ __ ] bandwagon Bulls fans and they
were everywhere.
I love it.
[ __ ] losers that lived in New York
and New Jersey and Long Island who were
Bulls fans because they were so insecure
and not capable of being winners by
themselves. They had to drift off the
equity of a team in Chicago to feel like
they were a winner. These [ __ ] [ __ ]
faces.
I went up to all of them sophomore,
junior year and being like, he's the X
factor. We couldn't get over to Jordan
Hump and then, you know, look, game six
was devastating obviously.
Yes.
With Nick's horn uh Rockets.
Yeah.
But game seven, so we lose that game. As
you know, it was a nip and tuck game and
we could never get there, right?
Yeah.
I cried. I was se 94. I was seven. I was
18. I was 18 years old. I cried.
And I mean cried
for three straight hours
in my bedroom after we lost game seven
in a I've only I mean I cried like a
sevenyear-old boy.
Yeah.
And honestly like even right now you can
see my energy has gone way down. Like
it's in the pit. Like I feel like I'm
there right now. It was devastating.
It was brutal. I mean, brutal. I love
that team. I love that team with a
passion. All of them. I mean, every all
of them.
Derek Harper, Ronaldo Black.
Oh, yeah. Charles Smith. I even love
Trent Tucker used to like do the
three-point contest and crutch it. You
know,
that was earlier, but that was great.
Those earlier guys, Johnny Newman,
Strickland, those guys, you know, Kenny.
Yes. Oh, Kenny Sky. Love those guys.
Uh, anyway, we've This has been amazing.
Incredible. Uh, I'm a bigger fan of you
now than even before. Uh, everybody go
out there. If you haven't bought
already, buy Day Trading Attention. I'm
not just saying this cuz he's here. I'm
telling you, this thing breaks down
every kind of content format. It is
incredible book, Day Trading Attention.
Go out there and get it. Gary, you are
awesome. Thank you for doing this and
appreciate a lot of fun. I wish you
well.
[Music]

Key Vocabulary

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Vocabulary Meanings

marketing

/ˈmɑːrkɪtɪŋ/

B2
  • noun
  • - the action or business of promoting and selling products or services

sales

/seɪlz/

A2
  • noun
  • - the exchange of a product or service for money

branding

/ˈbrændɪŋ/

B2
  • noun
  • - the promotion of a product or organization through advertising and distinctive signs

content

/ˈkɒntɛnt/

B1
  • noun
  • - satisfied or complacent

ad

/æd/

A2
  • noun
  • - an advertisement

event

/ɪˈvɛnt/

B1
  • noun
  • - a thing that happens, especially an important one

amplify

/ˈæmplɪfaɪ/

B2
  • verb
  • - increase the volume of sound, especially using an amplifier
  • verb
  • - to make something more noticeable or significant

brand

/brænd/

B1
  • noun
  • - a type of product made by a particular company
  • verb
  • - to associate a product with a specific identity or image

creative

/kriˈeɪtɪv/

B1
  • adjective
  • - relating to or involving the use of the imagination or original ideas to create something

attention

/əˈtɛnʃən/

A2
  • noun
  • - notice or concentration

convert

/kənˈvɜːt/

B1
  • verb
  • - change or cause to change in form or character

audience

/ˈɔːdiəns/

A2
  • noun
  • - the assembled spectators or listeners at a public event

organic

/ɔːrˈɡænɪk/

B1
  • adjective
  • - relating to or produced by living organisms

direct

/dəˈrɛkt/; /daɪˈrɛkt/

B1
  • adjective
  • - moving in a straight line without deviation
  • verb
  • - control the operations of

give

/ɡɪv/

A1
  • verb
  • - freely transfer the possession of something to someone

attribution

/ˌætrɪˈbjuːʃən/

C1
  • noun
  • - the action of regarding something as being caused by a person or thing

trend

/trɛnd/

B1
  • noun
  • - a general direction in which something is developing or changing

algorithm

/ˈælɡərɪðəm/

C1
  • noun
  • - a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations

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