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We realized we were really inherently 00:00
excited about the future of coding. And 00:01
I think we took a step back and realized 00:03
that if we were being really consistent 00:05
with our beliefs, there was going to be 00:06
an opportunity for all of coding to 00:07
change in the next 5 years and for all 00:09
of software development to flow through 00:11
models. It felt like no one working on 00:13
the space at the time was really taking 00:14
that seriously. It felt like they had 00:17
great products and they were making them 00:19
a bit better, but they weren't really 00:20
aiming for a world where, you know, all 00:21
of coding as we know it today gets 00:24
automated and building software ends up 00:25
looking very, very different. Then with 00:27
that in mind, we set out to to work on 00:28
that. 00:30
Let's start this talk with sort of the 00:36
origin story of your journey as a 00:38
founder. You kind of have to go way back 00:41
to middle school when you were reading 00:44
the essays from PJ, right? 00:46
So early on I think uh you know had been 00:48
interested in in starting a company for 00:52
a long time. Had been interested in a 00:54
bunch of a bunch of other things too. I 00:56
think actually originally got into 00:57
programming being interested in in 00:59
starting something kind of commercial 01:02
where uh the first time that I ever saw 01:03
code. It was over some winter break and 01:06
my brother and I we wanted to create a 01:10
hit mobile game. We didn't really know 01:12
how to do that. We looked on Google how 01:14
do you create a game? We heard that you 01:15
need to download this application called 01:17
Xcode. Uh we did that and uh we were hit 01:18
with these weird colorful esoteric 01:21
symbols which were Objective C which you 01:23
know uh is still around but maybe a 01:26
little bit less popular than it was then 01:28
for good reasons and um stared at uh 01:29
this kind of impenetrable wall of 01:33
Objective C and my brother promptly 01:34
ejected. Didn't move on with 01:37
programming. He now is on a very 01:38
different career path. He's kind of 01:40
trying to paint or something like that. 01:41
Um but um I yeah kept going and uh 01:42
bought a book on Objective C and then 01:46
eventually uh started working on on 01:48
mobile games. That was the genesis of me 01:50
getting into programming and then along 01:53
the way also yes was a big fan of uh 01:55
PG's essays and uh Sam's essays too also 01:57
and a bunch of the folks in YC and that 02:02
was definitely a big inspiration even 02:04
from the very early stages of of high 02:06
school. I think the wildest thing about 02:08
cursor is that right now you're just 24 02:10
and build this monster of a company in a 02:13
really short amount of time. To a lot of 02:16
people it could seem that it's a bit of 02:18
a out of out of nowhere, but this was 02:20
really in the making for more than a 02:22
decade. You've been working and shipping 02:25
a lot of different projects, right? And 02:28
you were working in AI even when you 02:30
were in high school, right? Tell us a 02:32
bit about the projects and how you got 02:33
started with that. 02:35
Was lucky enough to find programming 02:36
early on. was also lucky enough to be 02:37
interested in AI early on uh and have 02:39
some great collaborators to work on AI 02:42
projects with soon after kind of the fay 02:44
into mobile games which also turned into 02:46
uh I wasn't very good at mobile games so 02:49
one of the things that I built and 02:51
actually one of the things that got most 02:52
popular which was kind of the 02:53
technically easiest thing to build which 02:54
was maybe a lesson in startups of you 02:56
know the code isn't everything uh was uh 02:58
this mobile game or this mobile app 03:01
where you could spoof high scores in 03:03
things like piano tiles and flappy 03:05
and then send them to your friends. And 03:08
that was kind of the thing that went 03:09
viral. It wasn't the, you know, 03:10
painstakingly handcrafting the game 03:12
engine yourself thing. But uh yeah, no, 03:14
soon after that uh got interested with a 03:16
friend in the idea of building a robotic 03:19
dog where we thought it would be really 03:20
great to have a robot that you could 03:22
teach to do things without programming 03:24
it. Um instead you could give it 03:26
positive and negative feedback like you 03:28
give a dog. So you could give it a treat 03:30
if it does some, you know, quote treat 03:31
if it does something good. Uh you could 03:33
say bad if it does something bad. and 03:34
then maybe it would you know you could 03:36
teach it to play fetch and things like 03:37
that. Uh that idea really animated us. 03:38
But we had no idea how to build it. And 03:40
so again you know started the place 03:42
where one would start which is Google 03:44
and kind of went down a lot of rabbit 03:45
holes and you know took us into a place 03:47
of uh learning about genetic algorithms 03:50
and maybe that was going to be helpful 03:52
for building this robot dog that we 03:53
wanted to build. And then we eventually 03:55
learned about you know this neural 03:57
network stuff because some people were 03:58
playing with taking genetic algorithms 03:59
and using them to evolve neural networks 04:00
at the time you know with work like 04:02
neat. And then uh eventually it took us 04:04
to RL reinforcement learning um which 04:06
was you know even back in 2015 uh people 04:08
had been working on it for a long time. 04:12
In the end my friend and I we did 04:13
eventually build a couple of robots. We 04:16
did we didn't do any sort of substantial 04:18
work that really lasted but we did work 04:20
that was interesting at the time in 04:22
taking reinforcement learning algorithms 04:24
and making them more data efficient. you 04:26
know, making them better at learning 04:27
from very, very few data points, you 04:28
know, order of tens of data points and 04:30
also from noisy data, you know, data 04:32
that a human's giving. It wasn't exactly 04:33
a dog, but we built a couple of robots 04:35
where one of them was this many axis 04:37
robot arm that could kind of swing a 04:40
paddle and play ping pong and if you put 04:42
the right sensor on it and then you gave 04:44
it the right sort of positive and 04:45
negative feedback, you could teach it to 04:46
swing when it sees a ball. And then uh 04:48
we had this Kiwi drive robot that we 04:50
would teach to follow a line. to do 04:51
that. It was actually kind of this great 04:53
education in ML. Um, partially because 04:56
of our dumb naive where we didn't really 04:58
know that there were things like Torch 05:01
and TensorFlow and kind of other you 05:04
know lots of building blocks we could 05:06
use from maybe we weren't good enough at 05:08
Googling. 05:09
So you like implemented your own neural 05:09
network from scratch. 05:11
Yeah. So 05:12
when you were like I don't know 16 17 05:13
the constraints of the problem were we 05:16
were dealing with uh robots and so we 05:18
were dealing with microcontrollers 05:20
um and so microcontrollers have very 05:22
little memory and they couldn't really 05:24
fit any of the normal standard ML 05:25
libraries. So as part of our bike 05:28
shedding trying to build a robot dog, uh 05:30
we implemented our own tiny neural 05:33
network library and I have memories of 05:35
us not really understanding any of the 05:38
internals of how these things worked or 05:40
not really understanding calculus but 05:41
kind of fumbling our way through 05:43
re-implementing um some important ideas 05:44
from neural networks. I you know I think 05:47
it it taught us a lot. I think there 05:48
were a lot of gaps of the fundamentals 05:50
that it took many years to fill in 05:51
later. 05:53
Then fast forward to the founding of 05:53
anyphere. It's a interesting name 05:56
because cursor is not what it is. When 05:59
you guys started, you had just um 06:03
graduated MIT, right? That was back in 06:06
2022. 06:08
What were the first idea that all four 06:09
of you started working on back in 2022? 06:12
Yeah. So, the the genesis of cursor was 06:14
in 2021. Uh my co-founders and I, we had 06:17
been interested in AI for a long time. 06:20
Each of us kind of had our own little 06:21
robot dog moment where one of my 06:23
co-founders he worked on uh trying to 06:25
build a competitor at Google actually uh 06:27
using LMS in in 2021 and and training 06:29
his own um and training his own 06:32
contrastive models. Uh one of my 06:34
co-founders uh worked on computer vision 06:35
in academia and you know some of us also 06:38
worked on recommendation systems at at 06:41
companies like Google. But uh we were 06:43
really interested in AI. In 2021 we were 06:45
trying to figure out what we do with 06:47
that interest. Do we go and work on AI 06:48
in academia or you know do we go join 06:51
you know a big existing AI effort or do 06:55
we start our own thing and there were 06:56
two moments that really got us excited. 06:58
One was seeing the first AI product 07:00
start to come out uh you know GitHub 07:02
copilot was really the canonical example 07:04
for us. The other was seeing work about 07:05
how it looked like AI was going to 07:07
predictably get better in the future as 07:09
you scale up these models. At the very 07:10
beginning of 2022, uh me and my 07:12
co-founders, we went on a like a 07:14
month-long hackathon basically and we 07:16
started hacking on ideas related to kind 07:18
of picking an area of knowledge work and 07:21
building what it looks like as AI gets 07:23
uh more and more mature. Um 07:25
you guys have collected a lot of data 07:27
for that first idea, right? 07:28
Yeah. So the first real idea that we 07:30
worked on for a long time was in me 07:32
mechanical engineering. was trying to 07:35
build a a co-pilot for mechanical 07:36
engineers and trying to train models to 07:38
kind of predict what you would do in a 07:40
CAD system like Solid Works or Fusion 07:41
360 um which is where uh Mecky's model 07:43
out parts in 3D on a computer. We picked 07:46
it because we thought it would be boring 07:48
and sleepy and uncompetitive and uh we 07:50
were kind of doing an armchair MBA thing 07:52
even though it was a horrible choice 07:54
from the get-go because none of us were 07:56
really mechanical engineers and also the 07:57
science wasn't really ready for that 07:59
area. 08:00
But you guys kept working at it for a 08:00
number of months, right? And you crawled 08:03
and got all these CAD files and actually 08:05
got something working with autocomp 08:08
completion, right? That was like the 08:10
first version of it working. 08:11
Yes, we a bunch of the work was in data 08:12
scraping. Honestly, it was trying to get 08:15
all the CAD CAD models in the internet. 08:16
There also all these different file 08:18
formats and trying to convert them all 08:19
into something that's canonical because 08:21
CAD is this weird software market where 08:23
there are all these different systems 08:24
that are pretty popular. It's very 08:26
fragmented. Uh there are also cloud CAD 08:27
systems that don't have easily 08:30
exportable files and they don't want you 08:32
to scrape their stuff and so there was a 08:34
bunch of work there. Also the training 08:35
infrastructure for doing any kind of 08:37
modeling work back then was pretty 08:39
rudimentary and so there was a lot of 08:40
work on the on the infra side there and 08:42
just a lot of experimenting with models 08:44
and a lot of experimenting with how you 08:45
even jerryrig an extension into these 08:47
CAD systems because they're the you know 08:49
we were building an extension these 08:51
applications aren't really extensible at 08:52
all. There were actually also other 08:53
projects that we were working on at the 08:54
time. So um two of my co-founders they 08:56
were working on an endtoend encrypted 08:58
messaging system um because one of them 08:59
has a background in security research 09:02
and the idea there was apps like Signal 09:05
and WhatsApp um they encrypt the body of 09:08
the messages but they don't hide who's 09:11
talking to who at what time which is 09:13
actually really crucial information if 09:15
you don't want to trust the messaging 09:16
app provider. So, you know, if a 09:18
journalist is talking to, you know, 09:19
talking to some informant in the 09:21
government, just knowing that they're 09:22
communicating at all is a is actually, 09:24
you know, a really big piece of 09:25
information. 09:27
So, that was in the middle of uh 2022. 09:27
So, you guys were working for about good 09:30
6 months on this idea. 09:32
Yes. 09:34
And how many users were you getting at 09:35
did you get at that point? So, you 09:37
shipped the product. 09:38
All all of these projects were elevated 09:39
and it had basically no users. 09:41
At what point did you realize that the 09:43
idea was not working? It's like, oh no, 09:44
we we're all working on this. We we're 09:47
trying to do the startup. It's not 09:50
working. And 09:51
what was that moment like? 09:54
I think it was a bit different for each 09:56
of the projects. I think for the 09:57
messaging system that uh two of my 09:59
co-founders worked on. It was really 10:01
technically impressive, but it had these 10:03
bad trade-offs where it wasn't very 10:04
scalable. And I think they tried to give 10:06
it to people and it didn't really work. 10:09
And then they tried to sell it B2B and 10:10
then it didn't really work. And I think 10:11
it was after a couple of months of 10:12
trying to get traction for the CAD 10:14
ideas. It was yeah many months of trying 10:16
to get the models to really be useful 10:19
um for end users and then also reckoning 10:22
around are we really interested in these 10:24
areas or is there something else that 10:26
we're inherently much more excited 10:27
about. 10:29
So there was a moment that you decided 10:29
okay these ideas are not working we have 10:30
to pivot again. 10:32
Yes. you you you turned through a three 10:33
ideas, three, four, five ideas before 10:37
landing into into uh code completion. 10:39
Yeah, I think that um so we had been 10:42
inspired by um tools like copilot really 10:44
early on um and we had avoided working 10:47
on um AI and coding because we thought 10:50
it was too competitive competitive then 10:53
still is competitive now. So 10:55
2022 GitHub copilot was making already 10:58
about 100 million revenue 11:01
I think or more 11:02
potentially more. Yeah. 11:03
And you guys are like, "Oh, we could 11:04
still do a better job than GitHub 11:05
Copilot because people thought the game 11:06
was done." It's like, "Hey, GitHub." 11:08
Well, I mean, we we didn't think we 11:09
could at at the start. And then I think, 11:10
you know, it was the desperation of 11:12
having worked on ideas for a while and 11:14
not really being excited about them 11:16
after a while and them not really 11:17
working out. And that kind of shapes, I 11:18
think, what you care about and what 11:21
you're aiming for. And we realized we 11:23
were really inherently excited about the 11:25
future of coding. I think also we got to 11:27
see how some of the other people in the 11:29
space were, you know, working on their 11:31
products. We got to see how the tech was 11:33
developing. And I think we took a step 11:34
back and realized that if we were being 11:36
really consistent with our beliefs, you 11:38
know, there was going to be an 11:40
opportunity for all of coding to change 11:41
in the next 5 years and for all of 11:42
software development to flow through 11:45
models. And it felt like no one working 11:46
on the space at the time was really 11:48
taking that seriously. like it felt like 11:50
they had great products and they were 11:52
making them a bit better but they 11:54
weren't really aiming for a world where 11:55
you know all of coding as we know it 11:57
today gets automated and um building 11:59
software ends up looking very very 12:01
different. Then with that in mind we set 12:02
out to to work on that. 12:04
That was a bold move because you said 12:06
okay we're going to stop working on all 12:08
these other ideas that we didn't have as 12:10
much of a background and you were 12:12
excited about programming even though 12:14
you had this big Goliath in the room 12:15
with GitHub Copilot. you decided to go 12:18
and let's just solve this problem. 12:20
It didn't really feel bold or like a 12:22
move at the time because it's like you 12:24
know bunch of people sitting around in 12:25
their living room like on laptops. It's 12:27
not like you know like pivoting some 12:29
giant company but uh yeah no we did and 12:31
uh you know initially we kind of waited 12:34
into it where we were thinking well you 12:36
know maybe we do this kind of very a 12:37
niche tool for basically security 12:40
reviews you know trying to detect future 12:41
CVES in your code or maybe we build 12:43
something that's just for this one niche 12:46
area of software. um you know we we 12:47
thought about building for quants and 12:48
actually um kind of prototypes and 12:50
things just for quantitative 12:51
researchers. But yeah, in in doing that 12:52
we were just brimming with ideas for 12:54
what cursor could be if it were just 12:56
about trying to be the best way to code 12:58
with AI uh in general. And then I think 12:59
that we just we had a ton of conviction 13:01
about that and we had a ton of 13:03
excitement about that and so at some 13:04
point we just decided to to go for it. 13:06
Yeah. 13:08
And that was end of uh 2022, right? when 13:09
you decided to make that move and how 13:11
quickly did you ship the first product 13:13
and what did the first product look like 13:15
and that was around you shipped it a 13:17
couple weeks later and what was what was 13:19
that look like? 13:20
Um it did take us a little bit of time 13:21
to ship something publicly. 13:22
Mhm. 13:24
It took us roughly I think three months 13:24
from first line of code to open it up 13:29
and G it. Originally what we did is we 13:30
built our own editor quote unquote from 13:33
scratch. 13:35
Oh my god. 13:36
Still it was still using a bunch of open 13:37
source building blocks. There are a lot 13:38
of great primitives like code mirror and 13:39
you know the language servers and 13:41
there's a lot of open source tech that 13:42
can that can help you build an editor 13:44
but uh yeah no it was called together 13:45
from scratch and there was our own 13:47
version of remote SSH or own copilot 13:48
integration at the time because we 13:50
didn't have anything like autocomplete 13:51
you know you have to build you know your 13:52
own peen system you have to build all 13:54
your own language server integrations 13:56
there's just a lot that ends up going 13:58
into um something as developed as you 13:59
know the code editor market you know 14:02
making something that can actually be 14:04
competitive there and service someone's 14:05
daily driver but it was I think it was 14:07
four weeks until we built something that 14:08
we could use as our daily driver. It was 14:10
maybe four weeks later where we gave it 14:12
to the first beta testers and then there 14:14
was another four weeks and then we g it 14:15
and it was still very very crude at the 14:17
time. It didn't feel like a big thing to 14:19
just open it up to the public. 14:21
What did you learn in that first 14:22
version? Because you you built a code 14:23
editor from scratch. You guys haven't 14:26
done the whole forking yet. 14:27
Yeah. And we had the fear of God in us. 14:29
I mean we had 14:31
people hadn't hadn't really liked some 14:33
of the things we built for a while. So I 14:34
think that you know we were kind of all 14:35
in on it and very focused. But what did 14:37
we learn from that? Um, I think that we 14:38
learned kind of the first initial set of 14:40
AI features where, you know, when we 14:42
started, I think that there was just one 14:44
key command and it pulled up this like 14:47
universal remote in the editor and then 14:49
you asked it to do something and then 14:51
entirely the AI would just figure out, 14:52
oh, do you what what what exactly do you 14:54
want it to do? um you know, do you want 14:56
something back that's like a chat 14:58
response or do you want um like a code 15:00
suggestion that you can then take or do 15:02
you want it to go search around your 15:03
codebase and answer a question or do you 15:04
want it to go spin for a really long 15:06
time or a short time and there wasn't a 15:07
lot of control and I think that we 15:09
learned you know given the tech of the 15:11
time um at the end of 2022 that you 15:12
actually it has to the form factor has 15:15
to look a bit different and so we 15:16
learned kind of the first early AI 15:18
features that then became part of the 15:20
core of cursor from iterating both for 15:22
ourselves and also giving it to people. 15:23
I think another thing we learned was, 15:25
you know, we were very rapidly building 15:28
a feature version of what we want in a 15:30
normal code editor plus then some AI 15:32
stuff that we thought was great. But 15:34
then, you know, a feature complete code 15:35
editor for the world, um, is going to be 15:37
a way, way, way longer road. We thought 15:40
that, you know, FS code had been 15:41
developed over the course of 12 years, 15:44
was one of the earliest TypeScript 15:45
projects, um, had lots of people on it. 15:47
Thought, oh yeah, of course, you can 15:49
kind of spin something up that's just 15:50
equivalent for the world in in a few 15:51
months. And I think that we learned very 15:53
rapidly that that wasn't the reality and 15:54
our time was going to be best spent just 15:56
focused on the AI stuff. And so similar 15:58
to how browsers often based themselves 16:00
off of Chromium's rendering engine, we 16:01
then switched to being based off of VS 16:03
Code. 16:05
The other thing is you guys had also 16:06
implemented your own models too. Like 16:08
back then you got a lot of inspiration 16:10
from uh codecs, right? 16:13
Mhm. Yes. So when we were setting out to 16:14
work on uh you know our our first idea 16:18
that we really spent a bunch of time on 16:21
which was trying to help mechanical 16:22
engineers be more productive using AI uh 16:24
one of the things when we raised our 16:26
first round of funding because we we 16:28
actually kind of needed money from the 16:29
get-go to do a little bit of model 16:30
training because you couldn't bootstrap 16:31
it with the models that existed off the 16:32
shelves. They weren't good enough at 16:34
that task. One of the papers that we 16:35
would tout around is actually the 16:36
original Codex paper u because by our 16:37
calculations codeex which was the first 16:40
this was the first autocomplete model 16:42
behind GitHub copilot it didn't really 16:43
cost that much money to train even 16:45
though even back then at kind of the 16:46
beginning and middle of 2022 people were 16:48
talking about how expensive AI models 16:50
were to train I think it cost uh my math 16:52
might be wrong but I think it was about 16:55
100k in training costs and then you know 16:56
during this fay into mechanical 16:58
engineering we had done our our own 17:00
training and then uh when we set off on 17:02
cursor. I think we were a little bit 17:05
burned by that. And so we wanted to be 17:06
as pragmatic as possible, not to 17:08
reinvent the wheel. And so we started by 17:10
doing none of that. And then over the 17:11
course of 2023, you know, in dialing in 17:13
the product, that ended up being a 17:15
really important product lever, 17:16
especially as we got to scale and we got 17:18
a bunch of people using the product. And 17:19
then that also gives you the ability to 17:21
use product data to make the product 17:22
better. And so that actually has been a 17:24
really important uh muscle to build in 17:26
the company. YC's next batch is now 17:27
taking applications. Got a startup in 17:30
you? Apply at y combinator.com/apply. 17:32
It's never too early and filling out the 17:36
app will level up your idea. Okay, back 17:38
to the video. 17:41
What happened then in 2023 was when you 17:42
were still not sure about whether cursor 17:46
was going to be a thing, right? You were 17:49
still debating with your co-founders 17:51
whether you should still pivot. It's 17:52
like, oh, is this idea still going to 17:54
work? And you were still trying to grow 17:55
it, right? Because it took a long time 17:57
to to get to revenue, right? 17:59
Yeah. I think that over 2023 it uh it 18:01
was growing the numbers were kind of 18:05
small and I think that also we were 18:07
working on something where there wasn't 18:09
always a clear next step. Um I think 18:11
that there are probably some markets 18:13
where you're really well served by 18:14
going immediately talking to a bunch of 18:17
people listing down their problems 18:18
really rigorously or you know really 18:20
kind of systematically and exhaustively 18:22
thinking through each problem what would 18:23
kind of be the direct solution and then 18:25
prioritizing them and then going from 18:26
there. Um, but I think that we were and 18:27
are in a space that's that's a bit bit 18:32
different than that. You know, I we're 18:34
this end user application that doesn't 18:36
have much of a complexity budget. We are 18:38
trying to uh build the best way to code 18:41
with AI. And so a lot of that is 18:43
figuring out, you know, given the tools 18:44
that you have today, what can you 18:46
actually do? There's a lot of things 18:47
that you could write down that that 18:48
would be useful if you could build them, 18:49
but then, you know, figuring out how to 18:51
build them and all the details. It's not 18:53
entirely clear how to move forward on 18:55
that. And so yeah, there were a lot of 18:57
times over the course of 2023 and then 18:59
you know actually also to add to this of 19:00
our early user base if you just kind of 19:02
followed the gradient of exactly what 19:05
they wanted you would get pulled in 19:06
slightly different directions than we 19:09
ended up in. You know we had a really 19:10
loud segment of users that didn't know 19:12
how to code at all and we talked about 19:13
you know should we focus on those folks. 19:16
We had a really loud segment of users 19:17
that wanted us to do things that were 19:19
very techstack specific. Um, you know, 19:20
just building for one technology and 19:23
making it much less of a horizontal tool 19:25
and we resisted doing that too. There 19:28
was a lot of early prototyping and uh 19:29
kind of wandering the desert in 2023 and 19:32
then you know figuring out things around 19:34
you know where does it make sense to not 19:37
just build the software but also build 19:39
our own models to improve the API models 19:40
or or to replace them in places like you 19:42
know for instance with our our tab you 19:44
know our next edit prediction and then 19:46
how exactly to do that. 19:48
You went from zero to 1 million around 19:49
2023 right and it was uh it took it took 19:52
a lot to get there right? Um, yeah, it 19:54
was a a bit more than that, but sort of 19:57
roughly that that 19:59
And then 2024 was a crazy year. You guys 20:00
went from one to 100 million 20:03
in one year. Tell us about this uh loss 20:06
of uh compounding power because you kept 20:09
that growing 10% week over week. How did 20:11
that happen? 20:13
So, the numbers felt small early on, 20:14
then the compounding kind of kept going. 20:15
I think that there were a couple of 20:17
things that really drove our growth. Um, 20:18
we're in this market where if you make 20:22
the product better, you kind of see it 20:24
in the numbers immediately where, you 20:26
know, things start to grow more. And so 20:28
we felt it around, you know, when we 20:30
first started to make cursor codebase 20:31
aware, when we first started to, you 20:33
know, be able to predict your next 20:35
action, when we made that then more 20:37
accurate, then when we made that faster, 20:39
then when we made that more ambitious, 20:41
um, you know, it could predict sequences 20:43
of changes, and then when we let the AI 20:44
model start to take more action within 20:47
your codebase and then do that really 20:48
fast, you know, speeding that up. And so 20:50
all along the way, um, you know, I we 20:52
kind of just focused on making the 20:55
product better. the compounding 20:56
continued. Um, and I don't think that 20:58
this is true of all markets, but I think 21:00
we're we're in a market where end user 21:01
preferences matter a lot. And if you 21:04
make the best thing, people hear about 21:06
it and talk about it. And that kept 21:07
going for, you know, a long time. I 21:09
think one of the funny things that a lot 21:11
of that that's happened around that time 21:13
we did see a big shift in the YC 21:16
companies as they were going through the 21:18
batch because we would ask what what 21:20
kind of tech stack you use to build your 21:22
applications and it was night and day 21:25
from one batch to the other. I remember 21:27
in 2023 I think it was maybe single 21:30
digit percentage of the batch would use 21:32
cursor then 2024 it was like 80%. It 21:33
just like spread like wild wildfires 21:37
like the best builders were using you 21:39
got onto their Twitter feed. Yeah. 21:41
The Twitter feed. Was that where a lot 21:43
of adoption? How how did all the growth 21:44
came from? So the the very early stages 21:47
when we were first launching the editor 21:50
we uh tried to kind of evangelize it on 21:53
on social networks and actually my uh 21:56
one of my co-founders when kind of the 21:58
the dopamine hit keeping him going in 22:01
2022 when we were working on some of 22:03
these ill- fated ideas started posting 22:05
on the internet and kind of explicitly 22:07
set out to try to gain a lot of 22:09
followers not by doing kind of normal 22:12
social media things but by talking about 22:14
AI actually it was kind of surprising 22:15
you know, the degree to which someone 22:18
could actually just read kind of all the 22:21
papers, think kind of deeply about what 22:23
was going on at the time, talk about 22:26
that publicly and then get recognized by 22:27
influential people in the space. And so 22:29
there was like this particular um open- 22:31
source model, Flynn T5 at the time that 22:33
multiple 22:36
uh AI efforts that ended up using that 22:38
model. They found out about, you know, 22:40
kind of the benefits of that model 22:42
directly from my co-founder just because 22:44
he was posting on Twitter and doing that 22:46
kind of consistently. But he became like 22:48
sort of niche, very niche, like sort of 22:50
niche niche niche of SF micro celebrity. 22:52
He would actually kind of evangelize the 22:55
product early on. And so we had this 22:56
kind of very movie magic demo. Um, you 22:58
know, when we when we first launched and 23:01
when we first did a wait list to just 23:02
get our initial batch of users. I think 23:04
that that was helpful getting the, you 23:05
know, us kick started. But then after 23:07
that, we kind of stepped away from that 23:08
and we kind of lived like monks 2023 and 23:10
just focused on the product. And it it 23:12
really just spread from word of mouth. I 23:15
remember there were a couple of times 23:17
during that year where there were 23:18
members of the team that would say 23:20
things like, "Guys, the product's 23:21
already good enough. Like, let's put it 23:23
aside. Let's just focus on growth 23:25
engineering." And um then there would be 23:27
like a two-month sprint on, you know, 23:29
doing some version of that. uh and it 23:32
just never it kind of washed away 23:35
compared to the to the other stuff that 23:36
we worked on that year. 23:37
And by that time um in 2024, how big was 23:38
Kurser? How many how big was the company 23:42
at that point? 23:44
Uh it was pretty small in 2023 where my 23:44
co-founders are are fantastic engineers 23:47
and so and there were four of us and so 23:50
we could go uh pretty far without hiring 23:52
anyone. We also had our own, you know, 23:55
set of missteps and figuring out the 23:57
first set of people to hire and how 24:00
exactly to do that. And um so we're both 24:01
very patient early on and also, you 24:04
know, focused on hiring a lot less than 24:07
we probably should have early on. Um I 24:08
think we ended 24:11
2023 24:14
at only single digits people. Like we 24:16
were less than 10 still. 24:19
Yeah. 24:20
Amazing. So, so 24:21
no, I guess one cu curious uh now 24:22
shifting gears a little bit about what 24:24
are your thoughts in terms of how the 24:26
future's going to look with uh coding. 24:28
We were kind of this this maybe middle 24:30
road bet from the start where when we 24:32
set out to work on the company and we 24:34
were kind of hiring our our first 24:35
people, we would get these weird looks 24:37
around, you know, why are you I mean at 24:39
the end of 2022 it wasn't really like 24:42
this, right? because kind of catchy 24:43
happened and then the whole world woke 24:45
up to things, you know, beginning of 24:46
2023. But especially during 2022, uh 24:48
when we were working on the CAD stuff 24:51
and then the early code stuff, um people 24:52
thought working on AI uh was it was kind 24:54
of weird to do. People were not entirely 24:57
convinced that it was a good use of time 24:59
and that there were going to be lots of 25:00
great applications to fall out of AI. 25:01
And then even the people who were 25:03
interested in AI, 25:04
there was I in our space, you know, a 25:06
bunch of people that were just focused 25:09
on optimizing kind of the form factor 25:10
that existed already um and just making 25:13
those products a little bit better. And 25:15
then at the same time, you know, in our 25:16
social circles and professional circles, 25:19
there's a bunch of people that, you 25:21
know, we're thinking, oh, why would you 25:22
work on anything other than AGI? And, 25:25
you know, all of the work that you're 25:27
doing right now in one or two years, you 25:28
know, circa 2022 is going to go away. 25:30
And yeah, I think that we've always had 25:32
this view that there's going to be lots 25:34
and lots of um incredibly valuable 25:38
things to build over the next couple 25:41
decades. AI is going to be this 25:42
transformative technology. Uh maybe more 25:43
so than you know any revolution in 25:46
recent technological revolution in 25:49
recent centuries, but it's going to take 25:51
a couple of decades. And it's going to 25:52
be this industrywide effort where there 25:54
are all of these independent 25:56
capabilities that each need to fall to 25:56
really get to you know a place where you 25:58
can entirely get to the end state of uh 26:00
transforming building software on 26:03
computers or kind of the other areas of 26:04
knowledge work that might be transformed 26:06
by AI. And yeah, I think concretely kind 26:07
of in the near term 26:09
um we think that for professional 26:11
engineers, which is the end user we 26:12
serve, uh the market that we serve, um 26:14
you know, code is still really important 26:16
and uh there will be this long messy 26:18
middle where um you will be working with 26:20
the AI more and more it will become like 26:23
a colleague more and more. It may also 26:25
become like a you know a very advanced 26:26
compiler that can start to hide some of 26:28
the code for you. You're going to have 26:30
to read the logic and um yeah, and 26:31
review it and and edit it. So, and 26:35
what do you think are the skills that 26:37
are still going to matter? What should 26:39
everyone still be studying or stop 26:40
studying? 26:42
I mean, I think that programming like 26:42
math is kind of just a good general 26:44
education. 26:46
Um, and I don't think that that goes 26:47
away. And I think that there's also lots 26:49
of practical skills that comes from 26:50
studying computer science right now. I 26:52
mean, often when people are kind of 26:53
entering dynamic industries, the like 26:56
specific stuff that they they study in 26:58
school uh isn't super crucial. It's more 26:59
the kind of learning that they get along 27:02
the way. I don't think that's changed 27:04
with AI. What advice do you have for the 27:05
audience? If you have like a young 27:08
Michael Trello, maybe not just three 27:10
years ago, they want to be like you 27:13
three years ago before they start 27:15
cursor. What should they be doing right 27:17
now? 27:19
I think just working on things that 27:19
you're interested in and 27:22
uh doing it with people both that you 27:25
enjoy being around but that you respect 27:27
a ton. Uh and taking that really 27:29
seriously. Yeah, I think that for a lot 27:31
of people that are in school, it there's 27:33
so many things that pulls you toward um 27:35
more checking boxes and less, you know, 27:37
uh focusing on building something up 27:41
over time uh and really focusing on on 27:43
something that you're that you're 27:46
interested in. 27:47
All right, let's give it a round of 27:48
applause to Michael. 27:49
Thank you so much. 27:52
Yeah, of course. Thank you for having 27:53
me. 27:54

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[English]
We realized we were really inherently
excited about the future of coding. And
I think we took a step back and realized
that if we were being really consistent
with our beliefs, there was going to be
an opportunity for all of coding to
change in the next 5 years and for all
of software development to flow through
models. It felt like no one working on
the space at the time was really taking
that seriously. It felt like they had
great products and they were making them
a bit better, but they weren't really
aiming for a world where, you know, all
of coding as we know it today gets
automated and building software ends up
looking very, very different. Then with
that in mind, we set out to to work on
that.
Let's start this talk with sort of the
origin story of your journey as a
founder. You kind of have to go way back
to middle school when you were reading
the essays from PJ, right?
So early on I think uh you know had been
interested in in starting a company for
a long time. Had been interested in a
bunch of a bunch of other things too. I
think actually originally got into
programming being interested in in
starting something kind of commercial
where uh the first time that I ever saw
code. It was over some winter break and
my brother and I we wanted to create a
hit mobile game. We didn't really know
how to do that. We looked on Google how
do you create a game? We heard that you
need to download this application called
Xcode. Uh we did that and uh we were hit
with these weird colorful esoteric
symbols which were Objective C which you
know uh is still around but maybe a
little bit less popular than it was then
for good reasons and um stared at uh
this kind of impenetrable wall of
Objective C and my brother promptly
ejected. Didn't move on with
programming. He now is on a very
different career path. He's kind of
trying to paint or something like that.
Um but um I yeah kept going and uh
bought a book on Objective C and then
eventually uh started working on on
mobile games. That was the genesis of me
getting into programming and then along
the way also yes was a big fan of uh
PG's essays and uh Sam's essays too also
and a bunch of the folks in YC and that
was definitely a big inspiration even
from the very early stages of of high
school. I think the wildest thing about
cursor is that right now you're just 24
and build this monster of a company in a
really short amount of time. To a lot of
people it could seem that it's a bit of
a out of out of nowhere, but this was
really in the making for more than a
decade. You've been working and shipping
a lot of different projects, right? And
you were working in AI even when you
were in high school, right? Tell us a
bit about the projects and how you got
started with that.
Was lucky enough to find programming
early on. was also lucky enough to be
interested in AI early on uh and have
some great collaborators to work on AI
projects with soon after kind of the fay
into mobile games which also turned into
uh I wasn't very good at mobile games so
one of the things that I built and
actually one of the things that got most
popular which was kind of the
technically easiest thing to build which
was maybe a lesson in startups of you
know the code isn't everything uh was uh
this mobile game or this mobile app
where you could spoof high scores in
things like piano tiles and flappy
and then send them to your friends. And
that was kind of the thing that went
viral. It wasn't the, you know,
painstakingly handcrafting the game
engine yourself thing. But uh yeah, no,
soon after that uh got interested with a
friend in the idea of building a robotic
dog where we thought it would be really
great to have a robot that you could
teach to do things without programming
it. Um instead you could give it
positive and negative feedback like you
give a dog. So you could give it a treat
if it does some, you know, quote treat
if it does something good. Uh you could
say bad if it does something bad. and
then maybe it would you know you could
teach it to play fetch and things like
that. Uh that idea really animated us.
But we had no idea how to build it. And
so again you know started the place
where one would start which is Google
and kind of went down a lot of rabbit
holes and you know took us into a place
of uh learning about genetic algorithms
and maybe that was going to be helpful
for building this robot dog that we
wanted to build. And then we eventually
learned about you know this neural
network stuff because some people were
playing with taking genetic algorithms
and using them to evolve neural networks
at the time you know with work like
neat. And then uh eventually it took us
to RL reinforcement learning um which
was you know even back in 2015 uh people
had been working on it for a long time.
In the end my friend and I we did
eventually build a couple of robots. We
did we didn't do any sort of substantial
work that really lasted but we did work
that was interesting at the time in
taking reinforcement learning algorithms
and making them more data efficient. you
know, making them better at learning
from very, very few data points, you
know, order of tens of data points and
also from noisy data, you know, data
that a human's giving. It wasn't exactly
a dog, but we built a couple of robots
where one of them was this many axis
robot arm that could kind of swing a
paddle and play ping pong and if you put
the right sensor on it and then you gave
it the right sort of positive and
negative feedback, you could teach it to
swing when it sees a ball. And then uh
we had this Kiwi drive robot that we
would teach to follow a line. to do
that. It was actually kind of this great
education in ML. Um, partially because
of our dumb naive where we didn't really
know that there were things like Torch
and TensorFlow and kind of other you
know lots of building blocks we could
use from maybe we weren't good enough at
Googling.
So you like implemented your own neural
network from scratch.
Yeah. So
when you were like I don't know 16 17
the constraints of the problem were we
were dealing with uh robots and so we
were dealing with microcontrollers
um and so microcontrollers have very
little memory and they couldn't really
fit any of the normal standard ML
libraries. So as part of our bike
shedding trying to build a robot dog, uh
we implemented our own tiny neural
network library and I have memories of
us not really understanding any of the
internals of how these things worked or
not really understanding calculus but
kind of fumbling our way through
re-implementing um some important ideas
from neural networks. I you know I think
it it taught us a lot. I think there
were a lot of gaps of the fundamentals
that it took many years to fill in
later.
Then fast forward to the founding of
anyphere. It's a interesting name
because cursor is not what it is. When
you guys started, you had just um
graduated MIT, right? That was back in
2022.
What were the first idea that all four
of you started working on back in 2022?
Yeah. So, the the genesis of cursor was
in 2021. Uh my co-founders and I, we had
been interested in AI for a long time.
Each of us kind of had our own little
robot dog moment where one of my
co-founders he worked on uh trying to
build a competitor at Google actually uh
using LMS in in 2021 and and training
his own um and training his own
contrastive models. Uh one of my
co-founders uh worked on computer vision
in academia and you know some of us also
worked on recommendation systems at at
companies like Google. But uh we were
really interested in AI. In 2021 we were
trying to figure out what we do with
that interest. Do we go and work on AI
in academia or you know do we go join
you know a big existing AI effort or do
we start our own thing and there were
two moments that really got us excited.
One was seeing the first AI product
start to come out uh you know GitHub
copilot was really the canonical example
for us. The other was seeing work about
how it looked like AI was going to
predictably get better in the future as
you scale up these models. At the very
beginning of 2022, uh me and my
co-founders, we went on a like a
month-long hackathon basically and we
started hacking on ideas related to kind
of picking an area of knowledge work and
building what it looks like as AI gets
uh more and more mature. Um
you guys have collected a lot of data
for that first idea, right?
Yeah. So the first real idea that we
worked on for a long time was in me
mechanical engineering. was trying to
build a a co-pilot for mechanical
engineers and trying to train models to
kind of predict what you would do in a
CAD system like Solid Works or Fusion
360 um which is where uh Mecky's model
out parts in 3D on a computer. We picked
it because we thought it would be boring
and sleepy and uncompetitive and uh we
were kind of doing an armchair MBA thing
even though it was a horrible choice
from the get-go because none of us were
really mechanical engineers and also the
science wasn't really ready for that
area.
But you guys kept working at it for a
number of months, right? And you crawled
and got all these CAD files and actually
got something working with autocomp
completion, right? That was like the
first version of it working.
Yes, we a bunch of the work was in data
scraping. Honestly, it was trying to get
all the CAD CAD models in the internet.
There also all these different file
formats and trying to convert them all
into something that's canonical because
CAD is this weird software market where
there are all these different systems
that are pretty popular. It's very
fragmented. Uh there are also cloud CAD
systems that don't have easily
exportable files and they don't want you
to scrape their stuff and so there was a
bunch of work there. Also the training
infrastructure for doing any kind of
modeling work back then was pretty
rudimentary and so there was a lot of
work on the on the infra side there and
just a lot of experimenting with models
and a lot of experimenting with how you
even jerryrig an extension into these
CAD systems because they're the you know
we were building an extension these
applications aren't really extensible at
all. There were actually also other
projects that we were working on at the
time. So um two of my co-founders they
were working on an endtoend encrypted
messaging system um because one of them
has a background in security research
and the idea there was apps like Signal
and WhatsApp um they encrypt the body of
the messages but they don't hide who's
talking to who at what time which is
actually really crucial information if
you don't want to trust the messaging
app provider. So, you know, if a
journalist is talking to, you know,
talking to some informant in the
government, just knowing that they're
communicating at all is a is actually,
you know, a really big piece of
information.
So, that was in the middle of uh 2022.
So, you guys were working for about good
6 months on this idea.
Yes.
And how many users were you getting at
did you get at that point? So, you
shipped the product.
All all of these projects were elevated
and it had basically no users.
At what point did you realize that the
idea was not working? It's like, oh no,
we we're all working on this. We we're
trying to do the startup. It's not
working. And
what was that moment like?
I think it was a bit different for each
of the projects. I think for the
messaging system that uh two of my
co-founders worked on. It was really
technically impressive, but it had these
bad trade-offs where it wasn't very
scalable. And I think they tried to give
it to people and it didn't really work.
And then they tried to sell it B2B and
then it didn't really work. And I think
it was after a couple of months of
trying to get traction for the CAD
ideas. It was yeah many months of trying
to get the models to really be useful
um for end users and then also reckoning
around are we really interested in these
areas or is there something else that
we're inherently much more excited
about.
So there was a moment that you decided
okay these ideas are not working we have
to pivot again.
Yes. you you you turned through a three
ideas, three, four, five ideas before
landing into into uh code completion.
Yeah, I think that um so we had been
inspired by um tools like copilot really
early on um and we had avoided working
on um AI and coding because we thought
it was too competitive competitive then
still is competitive now. So
2022 GitHub copilot was making already
about 100 million revenue
I think or more
potentially more. Yeah.
And you guys are like, "Oh, we could
still do a better job than GitHub
Copilot because people thought the game
was done." It's like, "Hey, GitHub."
Well, I mean, we we didn't think we
could at at the start. And then I think,
you know, it was the desperation of
having worked on ideas for a while and
not really being excited about them
after a while and them not really
working out. And that kind of shapes, I
think, what you care about and what
you're aiming for. And we realized we
were really inherently excited about the
future of coding. I think also we got to
see how some of the other people in the
space were, you know, working on their
products. We got to see how the tech was
developing. And I think we took a step
back and realized that if we were being
really consistent with our beliefs, you
know, there was going to be an
opportunity for all of coding to change
in the next 5 years and for all of
software development to flow through
models. And it felt like no one working
on the space at the time was really
taking that seriously. like it felt like
they had great products and they were
making them a bit better but they
weren't really aiming for a world where
you know all of coding as we know it
today gets automated and um building
software ends up looking very very
different. Then with that in mind we set
out to to work on that.
That was a bold move because you said
okay we're going to stop working on all
these other ideas that we didn't have as
much of a background and you were
excited about programming even though
you had this big Goliath in the room
with GitHub Copilot. you decided to go
and let's just solve this problem.
It didn't really feel bold or like a
move at the time because it's like you
know bunch of people sitting around in
their living room like on laptops. It's
not like you know like pivoting some
giant company but uh yeah no we did and
uh you know initially we kind of waited
into it where we were thinking well you
know maybe we do this kind of very a
niche tool for basically security
reviews you know trying to detect future
CVES in your code or maybe we build
something that's just for this one niche
area of software. um you know we we
thought about building for quants and
actually um kind of prototypes and
things just for quantitative
researchers. But yeah, in in doing that
we were just brimming with ideas for
what cursor could be if it were just
about trying to be the best way to code
with AI uh in general. And then I think
that we just we had a ton of conviction
about that and we had a ton of
excitement about that and so at some
point we just decided to to go for it.
Yeah.
And that was end of uh 2022, right? when
you decided to make that move and how
quickly did you ship the first product
and what did the first product look like
and that was around you shipped it a
couple weeks later and what was what was
that look like?
Um it did take us a little bit of time
to ship something publicly.
Mhm.
It took us roughly I think three months
from first line of code to open it up
and G it. Originally what we did is we
built our own editor quote unquote from
scratch.
Oh my god.
Still it was still using a bunch of open
source building blocks. There are a lot
of great primitives like code mirror and
you know the language servers and
there's a lot of open source tech that
can that can help you build an editor
but uh yeah no it was called together
from scratch and there was our own
version of remote SSH or own copilot
integration at the time because we
didn't have anything like autocomplete
you know you have to build you know your
own peen system you have to build all
your own language server integrations
there's just a lot that ends up going
into um something as developed as you
know the code editor market you know
making something that can actually be
competitive there and service someone's
daily driver but it was I think it was
four weeks until we built something that
we could use as our daily driver. It was
maybe four weeks later where we gave it
to the first beta testers and then there
was another four weeks and then we g it
and it was still very very crude at the
time. It didn't feel like a big thing to
just open it up to the public.
What did you learn in that first
version? Because you you built a code
editor from scratch. You guys haven't
done the whole forking yet.
Yeah. And we had the fear of God in us.
I mean we had
people hadn't hadn't really liked some
of the things we built for a while. So I
think that you know we were kind of all
in on it and very focused. But what did
we learn from that? Um, I think that we
learned kind of the first initial set of
AI features where, you know, when we
started, I think that there was just one
key command and it pulled up this like
universal remote in the editor and then
you asked it to do something and then
entirely the AI would just figure out,
oh, do you what what what exactly do you
want it to do? um you know, do you want
something back that's like a chat
response or do you want um like a code
suggestion that you can then take or do
you want it to go search around your
codebase and answer a question or do you
want it to go spin for a really long
time or a short time and there wasn't a
lot of control and I think that we
learned you know given the tech of the
time um at the end of 2022 that you
actually it has to the form factor has
to look a bit different and so we
learned kind of the first early AI
features that then became part of the
core of cursor from iterating both for
ourselves and also giving it to people.
I think another thing we learned was,
you know, we were very rapidly building
a feature version of what we want in a
normal code editor plus then some AI
stuff that we thought was great. But
then, you know, a feature complete code
editor for the world, um, is going to be
a way, way, way longer road. We thought
that, you know, FS code had been
developed over the course of 12 years,
was one of the earliest TypeScript
projects, um, had lots of people on it.
Thought, oh yeah, of course, you can
kind of spin something up that's just
equivalent for the world in in a few
months. And I think that we learned very
rapidly that that wasn't the reality and
our time was going to be best spent just
focused on the AI stuff. And so similar
to how browsers often based themselves
off of Chromium's rendering engine, we
then switched to being based off of VS
Code.
The other thing is you guys had also
implemented your own models too. Like
back then you got a lot of inspiration
from uh codecs, right?
Mhm. Yes. So when we were setting out to
work on uh you know our our first idea
that we really spent a bunch of time on
which was trying to help mechanical
engineers be more productive using AI uh
one of the things when we raised our
first round of funding because we we
actually kind of needed money from the
get-go to do a little bit of model
training because you couldn't bootstrap
it with the models that existed off the
shelves. They weren't good enough at
that task. One of the papers that we
would tout around is actually the
original Codex paper u because by our
calculations codeex which was the first
this was the first autocomplete model
behind GitHub copilot it didn't really
cost that much money to train even
though even back then at kind of the
beginning and middle of 2022 people were
talking about how expensive AI models
were to train I think it cost uh my math
might be wrong but I think it was about
100k in training costs and then you know
during this fay into mechanical
engineering we had done our our own
training and then uh when we set off on
cursor. I think we were a little bit
burned by that. And so we wanted to be
as pragmatic as possible, not to
reinvent the wheel. And so we started by
doing none of that. And then over the
course of 2023, you know, in dialing in
the product, that ended up being a
really important product lever,
especially as we got to scale and we got
a bunch of people using the product. And
then that also gives you the ability to
use product data to make the product
better. And so that actually has been a
really important uh muscle to build in
the company. YC's next batch is now
taking applications. Got a startup in
you? Apply at y combinator.com/apply.
It's never too early and filling out the
app will level up your idea. Okay, back
to the video.
What happened then in 2023 was when you
were still not sure about whether cursor
was going to be a thing, right? You were
still debating with your co-founders
whether you should still pivot. It's
like, oh, is this idea still going to
work? And you were still trying to grow
it, right? Because it took a long time
to to get to revenue, right?
Yeah. I think that over 2023 it uh it
was growing the numbers were kind of
small and I think that also we were
working on something where there wasn't
always a clear next step. Um I think
that there are probably some markets
where you're really well served by
going immediately talking to a bunch of
people listing down their problems
really rigorously or you know really
kind of systematically and exhaustively
thinking through each problem what would
kind of be the direct solution and then
prioritizing them and then going from
there. Um, but I think that we were and
are in a space that's that's a bit bit
different than that. You know, I we're
this end user application that doesn't
have much of a complexity budget. We are
trying to uh build the best way to code
with AI. And so a lot of that is
figuring out, you know, given the tools
that you have today, what can you
actually do? There's a lot of things
that you could write down that that
would be useful if you could build them,
but then, you know, figuring out how to
build them and all the details. It's not
entirely clear how to move forward on
that. And so yeah, there were a lot of
times over the course of 2023 and then
you know actually also to add to this of
our early user base if you just kind of
followed the gradient of exactly what
they wanted you would get pulled in
slightly different directions than we
ended up in. You know we had a really
loud segment of users that didn't know
how to code at all and we talked about
you know should we focus on those folks.
We had a really loud segment of users
that wanted us to do things that were
very techstack specific. Um, you know,
just building for one technology and
making it much less of a horizontal tool
and we resisted doing that too. There
was a lot of early prototyping and uh
kind of wandering the desert in 2023 and
then you know figuring out things around
you know where does it make sense to not
just build the software but also build
our own models to improve the API models
or or to replace them in places like you
know for instance with our our tab you
know our next edit prediction and then
how exactly to do that.
You went from zero to 1 million around
2023 right and it was uh it took it took
a lot to get there right? Um, yeah, it
was a a bit more than that, but sort of
roughly that that
And then 2024 was a crazy year. You guys
went from one to 100 million
in one year. Tell us about this uh loss
of uh compounding power because you kept
that growing 10% week over week. How did
that happen?
So, the numbers felt small early on,
then the compounding kind of kept going.
I think that there were a couple of
things that really drove our growth. Um,
we're in this market where if you make
the product better, you kind of see it
in the numbers immediately where, you
know, things start to grow more. And so
we felt it around, you know, when we
first started to make cursor codebase
aware, when we first started to, you
know, be able to predict your next
action, when we made that then more
accurate, then when we made that faster,
then when we made that more ambitious,
um, you know, it could predict sequences
of changes, and then when we let the AI
model start to take more action within
your codebase and then do that really
fast, you know, speeding that up. And so
all along the way, um, you know, I we
kind of just focused on making the
product better. the compounding
continued. Um, and I don't think that
this is true of all markets, but I think
we're we're in a market where end user
preferences matter a lot. And if you
make the best thing, people hear about
it and talk about it. And that kept
going for, you know, a long time. I
think one of the funny things that a lot
of that that's happened around that time
we did see a big shift in the YC
companies as they were going through the
batch because we would ask what what
kind of tech stack you use to build your
applications and it was night and day
from one batch to the other. I remember
in 2023 I think it was maybe single
digit percentage of the batch would use
cursor then 2024 it was like 80%. It
just like spread like wild wildfires
like the best builders were using you
got onto their Twitter feed. Yeah.
The Twitter feed. Was that where a lot
of adoption? How how did all the growth
came from? So the the very early stages
when we were first launching the editor
we uh tried to kind of evangelize it on
on social networks and actually my uh
one of my co-founders when kind of the
the dopamine hit keeping him going in
2022 when we were working on some of
these ill- fated ideas started posting
on the internet and kind of explicitly
set out to try to gain a lot of
followers not by doing kind of normal
social media things but by talking about
AI actually it was kind of surprising
you know, the degree to which someone
could actually just read kind of all the
papers, think kind of deeply about what
was going on at the time, talk about
that publicly and then get recognized by
influential people in the space. And so
there was like this particular um open-
source model, Flynn T5 at the time that
multiple
uh AI efforts that ended up using that
model. They found out about, you know,
kind of the benefits of that model
directly from my co-founder just because
he was posting on Twitter and doing that
kind of consistently. But he became like
sort of niche, very niche, like sort of
niche niche niche of SF micro celebrity.
He would actually kind of evangelize the
product early on. And so we had this
kind of very movie magic demo. Um, you
know, when we when we first launched and
when we first did a wait list to just
get our initial batch of users. I think
that that was helpful getting the, you
know, us kick started. But then after
that, we kind of stepped away from that
and we kind of lived like monks 2023 and
just focused on the product. And it it
really just spread from word of mouth. I
remember there were a couple of times
during that year where there were
members of the team that would say
things like, "Guys, the product's
already good enough. Like, let's put it
aside. Let's just focus on growth
engineering." And um then there would be
like a two-month sprint on, you know,
doing some version of that. uh and it
just never it kind of washed away
compared to the to the other stuff that
we worked on that year.
And by that time um in 2024, how big was
Kurser? How many how big was the company
at that point?
Uh it was pretty small in 2023 where my
co-founders are are fantastic engineers
and so and there were four of us and so
we could go uh pretty far without hiring
anyone. We also had our own, you know,
set of missteps and figuring out the
first set of people to hire and how
exactly to do that. And um so we're both
very patient early on and also, you
know, focused on hiring a lot less than
we probably should have early on. Um I
think we ended
2023
at only single digits people. Like we
were less than 10 still.
Yeah.
Amazing. So, so
no, I guess one cu curious uh now
shifting gears a little bit about what
are your thoughts in terms of how the
future's going to look with uh coding.
We were kind of this this maybe middle
road bet from the start where when we
set out to work on the company and we
were kind of hiring our our first
people, we would get these weird looks
around, you know, why are you I mean at
the end of 2022 it wasn't really like
this, right? because kind of catchy
happened and then the whole world woke
up to things, you know, beginning of
2023. But especially during 2022, uh
when we were working on the CAD stuff
and then the early code stuff, um people
thought working on AI uh was it was kind
of weird to do. People were not entirely
convinced that it was a good use of time
and that there were going to be lots of
great applications to fall out of AI.
And then even the people who were
interested in AI,
there was I in our space, you know, a
bunch of people that were just focused
on optimizing kind of the form factor
that existed already um and just making
those products a little bit better. And
then at the same time, you know, in our
social circles and professional circles,
there's a bunch of people that, you
know, we're thinking, oh, why would you
work on anything other than AGI? And,
you know, all of the work that you're
doing right now in one or two years, you
know, circa 2022 is going to go away.
And yeah, I think that we've always had
this view that there's going to be lots
and lots of um incredibly valuable
things to build over the next couple
decades. AI is going to be this
transformative technology. Uh maybe more
so than you know any revolution in
recent technological revolution in
recent centuries, but it's going to take
a couple of decades. And it's going to
be this industrywide effort where there
are all of these independent
capabilities that each need to fall to
really get to you know a place where you
can entirely get to the end state of uh
transforming building software on
computers or kind of the other areas of
knowledge work that might be transformed
by AI. And yeah, I think concretely kind
of in the near term
um we think that for professional
engineers, which is the end user we
serve, uh the market that we serve, um
you know, code is still really important
and uh there will be this long messy
middle where um you will be working with
the AI more and more it will become like
a colleague more and more. It may also
become like a you know a very advanced
compiler that can start to hide some of
the code for you. You're going to have
to read the logic and um yeah, and
review it and and edit it. So, and
what do you think are the skills that
are still going to matter? What should
everyone still be studying or stop
studying?
I mean, I think that programming like
math is kind of just a good general
education.
Um, and I don't think that that goes
away. And I think that there's also lots
of practical skills that comes from
studying computer science right now. I
mean, often when people are kind of
entering dynamic industries, the like
specific stuff that they they study in
school uh isn't super crucial. It's more
the kind of learning that they get along
the way. I don't think that's changed
with AI. What advice do you have for the
audience? If you have like a young
Michael Trello, maybe not just three
years ago, they want to be like you
three years ago before they start
cursor. What should they be doing right
now?
I think just working on things that
you're interested in and
uh doing it with people both that you
enjoy being around but that you respect
a ton. Uh and taking that really
seriously. Yeah, I think that for a lot
of people that are in school, it there's
so many things that pulls you toward um
more checking boxes and less, you know,
uh focusing on building something up
over time uh and really focusing on on
something that you're that you're
interested in.
All right, let's give it a round of
applause to Michael.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, of course. Thank you for having
me.

Key Vocabulary

Start Practicing
Vocabulary Meanings

coding

/ˈkoʊdɪŋ/

A2
  • noun
  • - the process of writing computer programs
  • verb
  • - to write instructions for a computer or other device

software

/ˈsɔːftwer/

A1
  • noun
  • - the programs and other operating information used by a computer.

company

/ˈkʌmpəni/

A1
  • noun
  • - a commercial business

mobile

/ˈmoʊbaɪl/

A2
  • adjective
  • - able to move or be moved freely or easily

game

/ɡeɪm/

A1
  • noun
  • - a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or chance.

build

/bɪld/

A1
  • verb
  • - to construct (something) by putting parts or materials together
  • noun
  • - the form or manner in which something is constructed.

mobile

/ˈmoʊbaɪl/

A2
  • adjective
  • - able to move or be moved freely or easily

robot

/ˈroʊbɑːt/

A2
  • noun
  • - a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically

engineering

/ˌendʒɪˈnɪrɪŋ/

B1
  • noun
  • - the branch of science and technology concerned with the design, building, and use of engines, machines, and structures.

models

/ˈmɑːdlz/

B1
  • noun
  • - A representation, typically on a smaller scale, of a person, thing, or concept.

product

/ˈprɑːdʌkt/

A1
  • noun
  • - an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

editor

/ˈedɪtər/

B1
  • noun
  • - a person who is in charge of the content of a newspaper, magazine, etc.
  • noun
  • - a program allowing users to create and change computer files.

AI

/ˌeɪˈaɪ/

B2
  • noun
  • - artificial intelligence

data

/ˈdeɪtə/

A2
  • noun
  • - facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis

users

/ˈjuːzərz/

A1
  • noun
  • - a person who uses a computer or network.

improve

/ɪmˈpruːv/

A2
  • verb
  • - to make or become better.

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