– Bilingual Lyrics Chinese/English

Lyrics & Translation

[English]

Hello everyone, welcome to the Don’t Understand Podcast. I am the host Yuan Li

The guest of this program is Cheng Lei. She was born in Yueyang, Hunan in 1975. She immigrated to Australia at the age of 10.

spent her teenage years there.

In 2002, he started his career as a journalist in China at CCTV America’s CNBC TV station.

As a financial reporter and host, he recorded the rise of China’s economy.

August 2020

Cheng Lei was taken away by the national security department for investigation. He was held in solitary confinement and interrogated repeatedly for three years and two months.

Until October 2023, he was released due to the diplomatic efforts of the Australian government.

This year, Cheng Lei published a new book

"Memoirs of Freedom"

This should be the first time that someone has recorded and described it in such detail.

What is the so-called residential surveillance in a designated location?

What is prison life like under the control of the national security department

Who are the people imprisoned there?

Cheng Lei’s book records this cruel and unwilling experience with delicate sensibility and compassion

...

It also shows how individuals maintain human dignity and independence in front of the state machine

Hello Cheng Lei

Hello Yuan Li

I would like to start with August 13, 2020

Speaking of that day

You went to the CCTV office building where you worked and walked into a conference room

A man said to you

Cheng Lei, on behalf of the Beijing National Security Bureau, I am informing you

You are being investigated for providing state secrets to overseas institutions

Can you tell me

what was your life like before that day

I had been in Beijing for eight years

Then as a single mother

Life has always been

colorful and fulfilling

But because of the epidemic

at that time

my children's school

was told in February

that it would not resume classes

So

there happened to be a chance for them to go to

Australia for a few weeks

So what happens after they go there

Because China later closed its borders

and they couldn't come back

I booked the air tickets for them in March

and they couldn't come back

So I had been separated from my children for half a year

and I was trying to get them back

through various channels

in the struggle to be with me

Then my

mentality at the time was

Suddenly I have time every day

But in addition to work and socializing

and then I am busy

How to get the children back

I had an idea at the time, because everyone

is staying at home because of the epidemic and cannot travel abroad

Then we

want to have so many ambassadors in Beijing

Then they can do this to

the culture of the country

Let’s introduce it in detail

And I’m also interested in

I’m a foodie and very interested in food

I just thought of such a program

So when my boss asked me to go to Taiwan

It was

that day, August 13th, to talk about this new program

I was quite excited

so to this

It was the worst and most frightening moment in my heart.

This gap is very big.

Can you tell me what happened next that day?

How did you initially understand what happened to you?

Is that your first time dealing with the national security department? I had

...

...

...

...

the experience of being invited to drink tea and chat with the National Security Bureau

so

I thought it was rather mysterious

But I was really unprepared

because I didn’t know that there was such a terrible thing in prison

...

While I was confused, I was actually

actually not very nervous

because I felt

this crime sounded

If it's so scary, it must have nothing to do with me.

What did I do?

Then I'll cooperate. With a

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

factual certainty

right, the truth must be wrong

yes, yes, yes

Then

the more they take these things, the better

The more they can prove my innocence

until

the interrogation

I am also very calm

I said you ask

What's the matter?

I didn't do anything shameful.

Then you will be put under

the residential surveillance in a designated residence we just mentioned.

Can you explain to everyone what this strange word means?

Can you describe the room you

are assigned to live in and how you spend 24 hours a day

I think imprisonment is a kind of

torture in disguise

And it varies from person to person

So it depends on your identity and

what information it can

get from you or

What is the ironclad case?

Then it depends on your level of cooperation and your mental endurance

This is all

really tailor-made for you

So there is a

single bed and the walls are all soft-packed

Then it is about 16 square meters

But the area where I can

move around is probably

at best Eight or nine square meters

Because I am guarded by two guards every minute

...

24 hours a day

There are three pairs of them

The three pairs of female guards are all very young

Then one stands and the other sits very close to me

They will change positions every ten minutes

20 centimeters, right, that means they stand 40 centimeters away from you

40 cm

Yes, if the other person has bad breath and then farts, everyone is definitely suffering together

Watching it in the toilet, taking a shower, and sleeping

It’s quite scary

Then I want it at any time

That’s what I want

As long as I want to move

I have to apply and report

Apply to stand up and sweep the hair on the floor

Or

Apply for laundry

Then

this so-called exercise time

is when the two of them stand in a

passage of human flesh

Then I am in the width of about one meter between them

Walk a meter and a half to the window

Then walk back again

I have to sit there upright during the day, right?

Yes, yes, just put your hands on your legs

And you can't cross your legs

You can't cross your ankles either

You can't sit

You can't sit crookedly, you have to sit up straight

You have to have that

I have a good attitude

In such a state during this thought transformation

There seems to be regulations for how you sleep at night, right?

There are many rules

You cannot sleep facing the wall

Because the fluorescent lamp is on 24 hours a day

So most people like to sleep in the dark

But because it is very bright

So you will naturally want to face the wall slightly

It is not so bright

Because the fluorescent lamp is right

Put it on your head

Then It won't work if you put your arms to cover your eyes

And it won't work if you put your hands on the bed

So while you're insomnia

You have to think about these rules because

If you forget, he will wake you up

So you finally fell asleep

and woke up again

You described those days as there were no clocks, no calendars, only white walls

In such an environment, what does time mean to you

...

Time is actually meaningless

Because on the other hand, time is pain

You will feel that time has stopped and you will feel that time

is moving too slowly

Then you finally have a

little idea and a new idea

because you have not

gained any external knowledge

This kind of stimulation

makes you feel like your brain is numb

But what about when you finally think of something

You can only think for a while and then it goes blank again

It’s that kind of ocean of pain again

I want to drown you

But you still have to continue to live

So how do you fight with yourself

this kind of various

voices in your head

Various inner demons

Really

At that time, I felt that if I allowed myself

so-called entertainment for a few minutes, I would be

very proud

How do you entertain yourself

Just play idiom solitaire with yourself

Or translate it in your mind

Translate things

Ask yourself questions

Then I will think oh

If there is someone here to chat with me and have a roommate

I hope who it is

Or I will write letters to various people in my mind

Or talk to them

Even in my mind

I made up a

underground coffin FM station and I am

the host

There are all kinds of

poor prisoners

such prisoners who are on the verge of madness and suicide. They call me

and so on.

The other one is of course the two who are observing me.

The two guards at a time

are quite sympathetic to you.

Can you explain why you want to observe them? Observing them is also a

way to pass the time.

And in fact, if you think about

who else besides the closest and dearest people,

are so close,

have seen you for a long time,

and you

are actually within a very close distance.

And I can't speak

But you are all human

Everyone has feelings

So when they are sick

When they are sad

I will definitely feel the same

For example,

that guard who couldn't find a replacement

and

although he was

, maybe he was

having a stomachache

There is no way to use it

Although the toilet in my surveillance room is only

two meters away

Because of the discipline

I can only stand there

I was so sad that I

shit it in my pants

What is this

What kind of fucking system is this

I am really impressed by this detail

Then you

Later I found out that it was the National Security Bureau

who wanted to investigate you. Can you tell me what happened?

How did you

feel when you learned the reason?

In fact, they didn't say what the reason was.

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

They started

The day I went to court was

March 30, 22

I didn't know until

I learned that they had been monitoring me since April 23 of that year

And this happened to be the requirement in Australia to

trace the origin of the epidemic

A few days later

And it was not only my only one

They not only spied on me but also spied on other Australians in China

Then

found

messy desk

the Prime Minister's work report on my

They used this to make

and also took

to read other things

But

is

What is the real

for?

I

collected and pieced together all kinds of information and I can only say

...

This is

This is related to Australia's relationship

Australia-China relationship

They started comparing

The more emphatically asking you is that you sent a paragraph to your friend at Bloomberg 7 minutes in advance

before the release of the Prime Minister's report

...

Fan Ruoyi

Is it

Yes

There is a message in the Prime Minister's report that there will be no economic growth target this year

Yes

You were

when you sent it to her, did you think of saying

this may be dangerous

Risk

No

Because

I think

I am a foreigner

Then

on CCTV

Foreigners do not need to do confidentiality training

So I think there is nothing

that I can access

And

I think the government work report

Do you think I gave that

name at that time to the president of the European Chamber of Commerce Joguti

At that time, it was

that is

At the same time

I showed it to him and he said I had seen it all

Then I showed it to the professor from Peking University and he said to me

...

He said I would take a look

but there was no

And

the testimony they read to me in court said that my

was a colleague in the comprehensive news group

I don’t even know who he is.

Then

It is said that when he gave me this report, he told me that this is

What kind of secret

Where is it?

There is no

This is made up

And it will be announced to the whole world in a few minutes. How can it be confidential?

And this

report does not say what minute it is. You know it.

International this

is in the foreign media

If there is such a

restriction, then it is clearly written on it

Unbuggled until what time

But this so-called decryption at 7:30 in the morning

is a year later

It is

this

Court Prosecutor

I called my case back to the police officer who was handling the case and said that you still need a report. Then they went to the Secrecy Bureau

to come up with such a document

They said the declassification time was 7:30

But I think

Even this

report,

using other things to make a fuss

can all be made

The so-called

The so-called

chain of evidence

There is nothing they can't do

Yes

You

You are the one who sent this text message

This reporter Fan Ruoyi

Haze is a reporter for Bloomberg News.

He is also your best friend in Beijing. You have spent a lot of time describing it.

You hated her when you were at your lowest point in prison.

You want to vent this resentment on her.

...

...

...

...

Turn a blind eye to the cost

I didn't treat her as a victim like me because I needed an outlet

Someone to vent my anger on

Someone to share my misery

In my head I yelled at her You let Eva and Alex talk about your

two kids losing their mother

You narcissistic bitch you know every time you ask someone

How dangerous is sensitive information

When you later learned that she was also in jail

Did your feelings change? Can you talk about your complicated emotions towards this Haze Fan Ruoyi

Do you really blame her

I am not a person who holds grudges

I am a person who tries to reduce negative emotions

So there should be such psychological activities at the time

The mental activity of hating her or being particularly angry should be from when I was in

prison. The lowest point in my life was when I wanted to die

It should be around

the end of October

Then

Later

Later I learned that she

was also arrested

Then I went to the

detention center

because of a coincidence

I knew where she was probably being held

Even in the corridor

When I heard

I heard her voice in the corridor

In fact,

my mood was very complicated

Because

I felt that no matter what

no one should be in this ghost place

I, I am sad

It is not good to be sad with others

Even she later gave me

...

After she went out, she also passed

ambassador

to me

to pass on the

message that she said

At that time, she knew she was out. In fact,

she felt uncomfortable

because

she came in later than you and left earlier, right?

But

it can be said that

it was suffering.

The longer the time goes, the more likely

I will feel more peaceful

The more peaceful I am

And

because we are good friends and know that she

is very smart and

we have fun chatting, so

I also thought about it at the time

It's a pity that because

we are both involved in the case

we can't be together if we are involved in the same case, otherwise

It's great to have her as a roommate

At least we have many things in common

We all have the same views and opinions

We can complain together

Then have you contacted Haze Fan Ruoyi after you were released from prison

You just said we were best friends

Yes

I sent her WeChat and Instagram

But she didn't reply

And she blocked me

As far as you were the best friends, you

The National Security Bureau took out tens of thousands of your WeChat communication records.

Is your WeChat communication record

the person you sent many, many WeChat messages a day?

How do you think he still

blocked you and refused to reply to your WeChat

Or you

Either WeChat or you are on Instagram, which is outside the wall

A way of communication

Or maybe she thinks

what I said

She doesn’t like to hear

Because

you want me to

I received two messages from her in 2023

When I was in the detention center, I received this message from her twice, once to say

She heard me singing in the detention center on Christmas Day

and

and another time she said to hold on

But

it may also be because after I came out, I said

Even if all the media in the world

I will be interviewed

I will not be interviewed by Bloomberg

I don’t know if this sentence reached her ears

But you have suffered so much

She has also suffered

Just like many national security cases, your case has a very long process

And

it is the legal provisions

which are almost ineffective in the process

It means there is no law

I was very impressed by your description in the book

At first you thought that I didn't do anything

As you said before, you just said you should investigate

But later on, you will have this idea that maybe I deserved it

Maybe I really did something wrong

How did this change happen

Can you tell me about these people in the National Security Bureau?

What did they do

How did they let you slowly internalize the concept of "I am guilty"

I think it may not only be the national security, but maybe the Communist Party system pays special attention to it

This kind of makes you always self-reflect and self-criticize

I am completely and completely isolated

Even you can't imagine that in this information age, there can be such a place where you

can't contact anyone

And you are

That is, you are completely isolated both mentally and physically

So when you have the opportunity to be interrogated

you will be quite excited

Because I can finally speak

I remember that sometimes I might only say a few words a week

Except for the report of going to the toilet

There is no

There is no chance to open my mouth

So

When the only person who can help you and communicate with you is the police officer

Maybe something like Stockholm Syndrome will happen

You will think, eh

Maybe there is something wrong with me

They spend so much time and effort to talk to you, right

Some people just pretend to be red-faced or white-faced

Some people even show they care about you more

Right?

Some people will

give me such advice based on my personal life

Because I have nothing

so they become the only people in my

world

And they will keep giving me paper and pen

Let me write this kind of confession

Then we call it self-criticism

Self-criticism

In fact, it later becomes a confession

Then they

wrote it in my book

It was when I first wrote this

I was very naive

I thought it was just what I wanted to write

I thought it was like abroad

It was really myself

It was a true expression

Then after several months

I realized that they only wanted four words

I just confessed and accepted punishment.

Yes

That's all I wrote

Other details don't matter

It's what they said

Yes

Then they talked to me

Many times

Then I found out

They actually

Well

just wanted me to think I was guilty

And then they just confessed

It means that you just accept this

and everything will be OK

We will give you a book

We will

seem to think highly of you

Right

So slowly I thought

Only by doing this

can I

go to prison faster

and then be able to have a family

Especially my children came to visit

Then I

had such a concept in my mind

No matter what I do

I will go to prison as soon as possible

Right

Then can you tell me

That's why you

still stayed in prison for six or seven months

Well

It was the middle of this

Change means transitioning to this

It's the Detention Center

Let's call it a detention center

What kind of change is this?

Oh

It's simply a change between hell and heaven

I think people

long-term

this kind of high-pressure surveillance coupled with

this extreme

isolation, isolation

It's very destructive

So

I always think

Well, although the food in the prison is much better

but

it's one hundred yuan a day, right

I remember

Yes, yes, yes

The officer gave it to me at his own self-help

But

I

would rather

No matter what bad things you give me

I am willing to accept this kind of condition

...

I am not willing to suffer the torture of being imprisoned

You are in the book

You also spend a lot of space writing about food

Arriving at the detention center

You just mentioned the detention center

The food suddenly became very bad

Then you write about this kind of food

Write about this feeling of poverty

You also spend a lot of pen and ink writing

Well

You are beyond despair and sadness

You are also fighting and self-sustaining

For example, you used steamed bun crumbs

to make this cake for the inmates

The so-called birthday cake

Then you should use toilet paper to curl your hair

and even taught the inmates English

You also made wine with that

...

Right

Then taught singing

Then you, you, tell everyone

Just describe this

Arrive at the prison

This detention center

What is this detention center like

And also tell me

the story between you and your inmate

I particularly like

the one between you two separated by a thick wall

and the one next to you

the one next door

the inmate in that room

Conversation by knocking on the wall

And that person

There was a person who took the risk to give you a book

Later, he fell in love with you

I think

When I read it

I was a little dumbfounded

Did I say that this can be done

Yes

Please tell me a little bit

I really think you

Although it is very, very painful

It must be very painful

But you really have this kind of talent for enjoying hardship

...

I think it is unfortunate

Most Chinese people are very good at enjoying hardship

Sometimes

You see that your fellow inmates are not like this

Basically not like this

You really are

I feel that after arriving at the detention center

Because I can communicate with my roommates

my mental condition is much better

In addition, slowly

they feel that they have a confession

With the so-called chain of evidence

Then just wait to go to court

And

as a person who prefers

this interesting life

Then I have to live a different life every day

How is it different?

It is in an environment of extreme material poverty

In fact, your creativity will be stimulated

Just a very small thing

For example, we were suddenly told

that the toothpaste cannot have a cap

I just bought a new toothpaste

I can only give you the toothpaste itself. Wouldn't that work

Then we started to use all kinds of waste

Make this small tin foil or plastic bottle

and stack it

to perfectly cover the toothpaste cap

This is also a creation

And this can also

We are still competing

to see who is the best

We have a relationship with the surveillance guy next door

like knocking on the wall

Of course later we were reported

and punished

We were able to do it at that time

It was also because of the epidemic

It was the most severe

epidemic that hit Beijing

Maybe it was in late 2022

Maybe the detention center didn't have enough manpower

That's why

Because we have five

cameras for each surveillance

And one of them is looking directly

This translucent bathroom

I say translucent

means it is made of frosted glass from the waist down

But it is actually a transparent

Such a small room

There is a shower head

and then a squat toilet

Then

so what are you doing in the toilet

They can also see clearly

...

I also watch

because sometimes I stay

too long in the toilet

or do laundry at some

illegal time

and get

Because there is an intercom in each room

That thing on the wall of the intercom

For example, you take a nap

and then go to the toilet at night

You also need to click on the intercom

to notify the police officers

I'm moving now

Then

this actually affects everyone's rest

But they can see you at any time

For example, once I was hugging

and she was crying

I hugged my roommate

and then smacked

The alarm went off

Then the police officer's stern voice came

What are you doing

Then that

What don't you want

It means don't be together

Don't touch her or anything

Don't hug her

Anyway, there is often that kind of thing

You are doing one thing in an instant

You forgot

You are

You are a prison number

You are, you are not a human being

Then you think

I am a friend

Or me

I want to comfort her

Or me

What a prank

Then everyone laughed

It was at this moment

Suddenly

As soon as the alarm went off

everyone

came back immediately

It’s us

We are nothing

We

We don’t even have the qualifications to laugh

And I especially want to say now

It’s just for those five cents

Just to hack me

Can you be more creative

Right

Just can you think of something

Don’t just say it there

Say that I am old and ugly

And what about the Yankees

Can you show me some fun things

Yes, you can do so many tricks even in jail

That’s it. You have to use some tricks to hack me

Yes, yes,

Can you tell me that

you are under such

surveillance

And your wall

should be very, very thick

so that you can't hear the sound from next door at all

...

How can you knock on the wall

to talk to them?

Because the epidemic was quite serious at that time

So we were not allowed to let out air

But

we would open the door of

the wind farm every morning

The so-called let out air

It was actually a cement box

We could only see a little bit

A little bit of the day

Then we could stand

But we couldn't enter the wind field

But when I opened the door in the morning

it was just to allow air to circulate

Well

I stood at the entrance of the wind field

and started singing

Then I heard

the roommate next door

who was very bold and very loud

He might also go there

for a little longer than me

and then said

something Love your singing

Or something

Our cell is 112

What do I love you 112 or something like that

Then I said thank you and I was very happy

Then I started

Well

started looking

Every time I come to this

When the wind field door is opened

I stand in that place

The so-called chat

is actually very hard

I have to shout loudly

Yuan Li

how are you

And this is taking

a huge risk

But the reason why we were

not discovered until two weeks later

must be because

the security guards at the time were not enough

Well

Then

What you are knocking on the wall is

Can you tell me how to knock

How to spell this word

Yes, the irony of us is that we are not spies

But because we really want to

communicate with other people

so we use a

spy password

Such a communication method

Well

It's actually very simple

A means knocking once

z means knocking 26 times

So

I remember

was communicating in English at that time

Hmm

Yes

English also has Chinese

Because we also played idiom Solitaire

But we only hit that one

The first letter of each word

Then I just couldn't do it anymore

I yelled very loudly at the window

...

I hope the other party can hear

Sometimes I just pick up a few

and I can't pick up anymore

Hmm

Then I found out

There is a roommate next door

Very thoughtful

Hmm

It can be said that she is one of the most romantic people I have ever seen

...

Because

to

she was able to give me

that is

and typed this for more than 400 times

Then she typed the pinyin for me

and then typed the hidden head

It is considered the hidden head

Hmm

Acrostic poem

Yes, but because it is not a poem

But spelled out it is Ai Chenglei

I didn't react at the time

But my roommate

She is better

I heard it immediately

We were all amazed

Really

Alas

Compared to

Then you later

You said

I said compared to us

Use this ChatGPT to write love letters

How advanced is it really

Because you are in the book

You also asked a question

You said that among the

more than 30 prisoners in the Beijing Detention Center, how good is

that they are spies

Rather than the

collateral damage of turbulent international relations

Maybe you can talk about

why you feel this way

in prison

how can you

feel it later

is the connection between China-Australia relations and your case

...

For example, when I was arrested

At that time, the request was

Australia's Liberal Party government

They were in power

By May 22

During the election

the Labor Party won

and the Labor Party has always been regarded as

and indeed the more pro-China

party

So by that time

I had been detained for two years

So in the past two years

Australia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs

and the embassy

have been helping me apply for one

I can talk to my children

An opportunity to talk

Because the

Canadians I know

have all

had several

phone calls with their families

This is not impossible

But no matter what

How do we apply

Even at Christmas time

I said it’s okay without calling

Just let me

You just put a paragraph

Children's recordings are also allowed

But this was also rejected

Until the Labor Party came to power

In November of 2022

At the 20-nation summit in Indonesia

Then the Australian Prime Minister

Obany met with Xi Jinping

Then after three weeks

I was approved

With my mother and my children

The only phone call

in more than three years

And since the Labor Party came to power

I have felt

Of course, it may also be because

the Foreign Minister Huang Yingxian

is also more concerned about my case

Or

Anyway, the relationship has changed

Until I was tried

That is, I was sentenced

It can be seen

This politics has a great impact on an ordinary person's sentence

...

Yes, yes, yes

When I read the book,

I had a feeling that

you are Australian to your core

that is, for a government

to deprive people of their rights

completely and ruthlessly

very angry

and very shocked

and

You also had some

fantasies about lawyers that later turned out to be

unrealistic

Can you talk about

the before and after encounters with all this

Has your Australian identity

had any changes

I used to think that I had a dual personality in language

Well, I still do

in language and culture

So when I am in front of Australians

I will feel a lot of

some characteristics of being Chinese

and then I have been

so in the past few years in the detention center

or in the past few years of being imprisoned

I have a more personal experience of the Chinese regime

So in fact from this aspect

...

it is also a good thing for me

My dad is the whole

Let me tell you

This situation

Your dad is a big rebel, right

And don't you and your dad

In fact, there are quite a lot of differences

Regarding the regime of the Chinese Communist Party

That's right

That's not to say

We didn't talk about rising to the point

It's just a quarrel

It's just that he thinks

His generation has seen more

this evil

so he will never forget it

But because I didn't have it when I was a child

The Cultural Revolution ended one year after I was born

...

So later

Plus I came to Australia again at the age of ten

So what I saw

was not as much as he saw

But

And as a business reporter

I always look at China's economy

Such a step-by-step development

This country is changing, right

Right

This is also one aspect

And as an Australian

In fact, I also

had this communication with my roommates

in the detention center

That’s what Australia is like

Then they were also very moved

For example, a stranger

wrote a signed letter for me

Asked the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

for my contact information

Write me a letter

Then they supported me no matter what

Believe me

After I came back

On the street in the supermarket

A stranger hugged me

And there is one more thing

I think it’s because Chinese culture

is a relatively hard culture

It’s just that our hearts are all hard

For example, if you are in an environment in

Chinese

Look at how to describe me

and look at how the English environment describes me

I feel like they are two different people

That’s why everyone thinks

is going to do something to me

What is this

skinned and then buried alive

That’s why I think even in the West

If you want to blackmail someone

you would not write in such a vicious way

So I like it very much

Australia is a very open and tolerant

Very fair

A very kind society

Yes

I think what you wrote in your book is

People from the Australian Embassy

Right

They are during the epidemic

Then try to see you

Then they have a

young man who always reads the news to you

Right

Read the letter, read the news

Whatever is right

And your boyfriend Nick

wrote those touching letters to you

I really feel

particularly touched

He treats you as an adult

Is it

No matter what circumstances you are in

Let me tell the truth

When you are wronged

But even if you are not wronged

Don’t you have the right to be a human being

That’s right

Because as far as I know

In Australian prisons

you can make almost unlimited phone calls

I collapsed as soon as I heard this

My whole defense was broken

And the roommates I came into contact with later

I also thought

Not everyone

In fact, sometimes

Chinese people don’t know there is such a thing

And they don’t even believe

There is such a thing

Two people watching you

Watching you go to the toilet 24 hours a day

Watching you sleep

Such a system

Not to mention experiencing it

Yes yes yes

Yes

Treat yourself as a human being

and treat others as human beings

Like this

I have always said this

This way the living environment of each of us

will be better

Yes

So sometimes when I chat with

Westerners who are overflowing with sympathy

about this experience,

they will say

Didn’t they contact their family?

They can’t believe it

But when I talk to Chinese people about this in China

they may say

If I had been in prison at that time

I have experienced worse

Or maybe our family experienced worse torture during the Cultural Revolution

or during this kind of land reform

...

So they were all shot

Yes

So it’s like our standards of humanity

are relatively low

Including the police officers, they always tell me

You are good enough

There were rats before

Or maybe you are content with something

You just

They will always compare with the past

They always feel that they have made a lot of progress

But they will not compare horizontally

Compare with those evil Western countries

My children always joke with me

Why are you not in Norway

If then you have a PS5

Then play the game console

The prisons in Norway are really too humane

Yes

I also checked online for this

The best prisons in the world

What are the top ten

Really

Because it’s not about you

It’s also about your prisoners

It’s a

measure of the humanity of your society

Yes

Then you are what you just saw

What we just talked about is

you still read the news inside the wall

It's because

there are always about you on the Internet inside the wall

In fact, any rumors and online reports about people who are labeled as spies

Traitors

You love China so much

I can feel that

I really think you are a person who loves China

Being labeled like this

How do you feel

The feeling is particularly complicated

Because what is China

Right

And as a

and I think for us

just don’t say you were born in China

Just look Chinese

Our standards

In fact, he is very picky

We ask for his so-called patriotism

That is, he cannot say a word

The so-called anti-anti-China or

I am anti-China

If China is not good, it is anti-China

Yes

So what kind of traitor is also a traitor?

Particularly abused words

So what does this mean?

In fact, what we are talking about is

Who is hurt so-called

Is it ordinary people

Is it the so-called country

Then during my case

they later found another bureau

to come up with a certificate

That is to say, what about the text message I sent to Fan Ruoyi because of this

...

What's going on

Did it damage the dignity of the country

Or something

So I thought

Do I really have such great ability

Yes

Really

Our huge country is quite petty

Yes Absolutely petty

Seven minutes later, the whole world will know the information

I detained you for more than three years

And it was such a cruel way of detention

It was when your case went to trial

and when your verdict came out

It was when you learned that you would be deported immediately

What did you think

It was what kind of emotions you felt at the time

Do you still want to go back to China

This question is asked by many people of mine.

Then I also wrote it in the book

I said it was a bit like asking a woman who has been domestically abused

if he will go back to be with his husband

But in fact

yes, later I said that my standard answer is

if I feel safe

if I feel that I am popular

Or at least not

or hacked online

Then I am willing to go back

But these two conditions are

right. When the prosecutor talked to me about my sentence, it felt very strange.

...

My fate can still be negotiated.

Tell me about your relationship with the prosecutor. You actually felt so relieved

...

...

...

...

I was so sad when I read that

Tell me

That was the police officer

The police officer said about six years

Then later the prosecutor came to see me

He showed me a law book

That is, how many years are two secrets

Then how many years are two secrets

Then how many years are two secrets and one top secret

Then it means

I should

originally be more than five years

So after his unremitting efforts

he bargained for me to five years

and exempted me from the additional penalty

The additional penalty is deportation

He said that considering that the father of my children

is Chinese in China

So what?

This is how they

can make it convenient for us

to reunite the children with their father

But later,

Of course, the discussion at that time still said

My sentence was five years

Until the final sentence was given to me, it was two years and eleven months

So later, there was still this additional crime

Additional penalty

Then when the sentence was announced

Of course I think

Is there anything more important than freedom?

But I don’t know

why people are deported. I won’t think about it all the time

...

...

...

...

...

...

But that teacher Ma Jian said

He is already used to it

Regaining the sky

But losing the writing of the land

I was very touched by this sentence

after hearing it

It is true

Then can you describe to everyone

What was your previous job at CCTV International Channel like?

I saw you said in an interview

As a business reporter

I have always felt safe

I am bilingual

I understand the local culture

I know where the red lines are

But it turns out I have no idea

I want to know what you thought of China's censorship in the past

And this opaque legal environment

I'm often asked what China's press censorship is like

What about my observation

and personal experience

It is continuously graded according to its audience

That is, the more elite your audience is, the more numerous it is

It means you have a handle

The more likely it is that he can seize your handle

The looser it is

I think the most strict ones are ordinary people

Or people on Chinese TV

Right, people who have nothing

Because they are most afraid of the barefoot revolution

So this aspect is the strictest

But for English or foreign language media

because its audience basically understands English

People who understand English in China

or people abroad

So actually I think the censorship is quite small

And I have always been naive to think

Naive or stupid

Think that I am within the system of this CCTV English channel

In fact, I can still do something to make some changes

For example, I will try my best to invite guests who have different opinions

especially foreign guests

Because one thing I particularly disliked at the time

is that compared to CNBC, CNBC has

all kinds of guests

and they will go at any time

We have people who specially invite guests

Then the producers will make friends with all kinds of people

Only then can we bring more fresh perspectives to everyone

But on CCTV

the person who invites guests

will have us call him the Four King Kongs

They are all professors

and then pay seven to eight hundred yuan every time

And what they say

is definitely

What they say is absolutely safe

And it is definitely what the party likes to hear

But I am particularly annoyed by them

Then my daily purpose

is not to invite them to my show

As long as I am on the show

I will try my best to invite foreign guests

Another one is

As long as I see Xi Jinping in the news

I will automatically delete it

and change it to other words

Because I feel

Or Beijing or China

I think this personality cult

is out of whack

I also want to discuss it with you again

It’s your opinion on Fan Ruoyi

Haze doing news

You wrote in the book

It’s because she knows she wants exclusive news

And these exclusive news are sensitive

She is also often afraid of his sources

This also includes you

will be arrested by the national security

Looking back now

What do you think of her work

Do you think that as a reporter

she wants the personal safety of the exclusive and source

Does this constitute this kind of irreconcilable conflict

I think it is just what I want to discuss

It is this reporter and the source of information

It is ours

What does the so-called relationship between sources

look like

When I was there

I always thought of that DiCaprio movie

called Blood Diamond

I felt that in the press there was also

News exchanged at the cost of blood

News exchanged

I am very interested in the current concept of national security

After this is expanded

The risk of the source of information is getting bigger

Maybe it was fine before

There was not such a heavy price

But now

First of all, there are far fewer foreign media reporters in China

Everyone uses various methods to catch spies

The brainwashing of national security

Those who dare to speak to foreign media

There are even fewer who dare to tell the truth

So if there are such rare

people existing

then how to protect them

You said at the end of the book

I hope readers can distinguish between China

Chinese and the CCP. I cringe even when friends gushed

...

...

...

...

...

about the good times they had in Beijing

I cringe

Since the CCP regime is so omnipresent

it's hard to separate it from Chinese technology

Chinese culture and Chinese people

I'm now learning to compartmentalize my feelings

I can speak out against the CCP's

human rights violations

without feeling like I'm in denial

own traditions

or attack Chinese people

I hope we can all be free to appreciate

the hard work and wisdom of the Chinese people

enjoy the deep and rich culture

while also fearlessly exposing

the repression and torture that occurs in some corners of China

...

Can you say it

Why did you write this

I think China is a

huge, complex

and full of contradictions

concept

So

when

this regime wants

he mixes

everything together

...

In fact,

what they want to do is

stabilize their regime

But

I think

maybe in the West,

pays more attention to individuals

but there is no individual

Where does it come from?

Where does everyone come from without a small family

But what is promoted in China is

Only you can have a small family

How can there be a family without a country

Yes, like us

Every time we say

, there are many

This relatively naive foreigner

Just watch it when you go to China

Oops, high-speed rail, what kind of laser show

What technology

But they have not seen

this is

obtained at what price

He has not seen each

fresh life of so many migrant workers

who have not received

labor protection for many years

and cannot even get

remuneration for their own labor

how many unjust cases

how many

How many people have been blocked from petitioning and beaten

when none of this

can be reported

How can you

say that this is

you know or you have seen China

I am particularly disgusted by the very simple and crude

talking about China

Me too

I hope to do my best

for a more complete Chinese story

Add my voice

Then it should be November 11th next month

before you are released and return

Australia's second anniversary

It's next week

Just this week

Because it's already October

October 11th

There are five days left

Right

Then you

are willing to share it

Your current life and status

Do you still often think about

those three years and more

And your two children were so young at the time

What impact did it have on them

In fact, the impact

I can see it every day

Because I am not around

Only my mother

takes care of them both

Then my son

is there for a long time

I live with my mother

My daughter goes to boarding school

So let him

become independent very early

When you were arrested 20 years ago

How old were your children

They were 8 and 10 years old at that time

And now they are 14 and 16 years old

Although I

can see

Everyone's scars

I try my best to heal them every day

Not only to heal myself

but also to make up for it

My family

But

I think the more positive thing is

Thank me

It will come out in 2023

Instead of following the original plan

The original plan was to be in November this year

can only be released from prison

If that is the case

I think the impact will be even greater

I estimate that my daughter

is already half an adult in many aspects

Do you still think about those three years and more now?

For me,

think about these things

or go out to give speeches and accept interviews

and write this book

In fact, they are all my healing

A very important part

You don't avoid it, right

Not at all

I also think this makes me feel

particularly free

Because you think

The entire national security system is one

Not only lock you up

Destroy your brain

But also change your mind

And I want you to shut up

Such a mechanism

will automatically castrate you

so that you will never dare to speak again

Then everything I am doing now includes

continuing to do news

including writing columns

including chatting with you

Last night

chatted with Murong Xuecun, Lu Xinhua and Feng Chongyi

These are

things that can make me

feel free

so it’s very good

You are

You actually

read a lot of books

more than three hundred books

Were you a person who loved reading books before

Yes when I was a child

After becoming a mother

I don’t have that much time

Can you tell me

Just say you are in it

What is your favorite book

...

This stage

When you have both

pursue density

The best kind is that

For example, "Appreciation of Song Ci"

I can watch and memorize it every day

Although in the end I became

a little tired of aesthetic appreciation of ancient Chinese culture

...

I feel

I feel sentimental when I see the moon

...

When I see something raining

What parasol trees

I feel all kinds of sadness

Then here we come

Because at that time, I felt that novels were not allowed to be read

but not

Later

I especially like to read them

which are not often read outside.

For example, poetry

scientific books

philosophical books

history

because they will give you a new idea about

your own

situation

...

and I especially like to read them.

A book that can be shared with roommates

A book that can be used to talk about feelings

After all, every day

There is nothing else but this

thing to talk about

Everyone’s life story

has been told eight hundred times

After you were released

You also wrote to many writers who inspired you

You wrote emails and many people responded

including Taiwanese writers

Long Yingtai

Can you share why you

wrote to them

I think they once gave me

such a precious gift

I must let them know

their words

Because it’s not just me

There is a book under surveillance

Everyone shares it

Unless you have this kind of resentment in your heart

Then

Maybe reading for others is just

for entertainment

But in the surveillance

especially the surveillance by the national security

such an environment

is simply life-saving

It is simply

like

like medicine

like

anyway, it is too precious

So I must let them know

And each of them

was very moved

And I also met

...

438 Days

in Chile

The writer of the book

Long Yingtai

came to our house for tea

Then we went to see kangaroos

and had a meal together

I think this is

suffering is

It was uncomfortable at the time

But in fact

just like we

right

can grow

fragrant flowers through stool

Suffering can also become meaningful

and can also become wealth

You are really a

very

a very positive person

In the words of the Communist Party

Yes

Then we

ask each guest

to recommend three books

or movies

What do you recommend

It’s so hard to choose

There are only three books

Just three books

The more tacky ones

Maybe everyone has read it

is "A Brief History of Humankind"

Guns, Bacteria and Country

and Steel

Because these all belong to

, let your ideological system have

Comparison

is a relatively inspiring book

and

is

I particularly like to read an English novel

I don’t know if it has been translated into Chinese

It’s called All the Lights We Cannot See

It seems to have been made into a movie

This is

beautifully written

and although it is

the background is World War II and there was a lot of suffering

but the

good and evil of people

described

so well that I was

particularly moved

to

your favorite song in prison

What's the name of that song?

It's a

religious song

to

Amazing Grace

Because

it's ironic

The person who wrote it was

who once had a black slave

But

this song

both the lyrics and the song

It has brought comfort to

generations of people

I remember that later

a new roommate came in when I was about to leave

and she was also very confused on the first day when she arrived

...

We usually just

after lunch

just pretend to take a walk there

actually singing

Then we couldn't look at each other

We could only do it secretly

Then always pay attention to

the glass above

that

Isn't there a passage where someone is watching us

to see if there are any people

Then after we hummed once

he burst into tears

Would you like to sing a little bit for us?

Compared to China's

average karaoke level

mine are all failed

but I

just sing whatever I want

In fact, at that time

I particularly liked to sing

There was a song

called "I Want to Know What Love Is"

Then

really just look at the direction of

the sky

I wanna know what love is

I want you to show me

By the way

On New Year's Eve

I ate with a few friends at a

Hunan restaurant and Yueyang restaurant in Melbourne

Later, the boss lady was very nice

But they were playing cards there

We drank there

Later I

cried and sang some

songs that I had sung with my roommates at the time

I hope we can still

have a

class reunion at the Brisbane Olympics in 2032

...

class reunion

I hope that after this show

anyone knows about them

Contact me

OK

They can also find you on

Instagram

Just call it Cheng Lei

That’s right

I can send you a private message

When I have a way

I’ll send you a private message

Let’s talk about their current situation

OK

Thank you Cheng Lei

See you in the next issue

[Chinese]

大家好 欢迎来到不明白播客 我是主持人袁莉

这期节目的嘉宾成蕾 1975年出生于湖南岳阳 10岁移民澳大利亚在那里

度过了青少年时期

2002年他在中国开启了记者生涯 在中央电视台美国的CNBC电视台

做财经记者和主持人 记录了中国经济的崛起

2020年8月

成蕾被国家安全部门带走调查 他被单独关押和反复审讯 长达三年零两个月

直到2023年10月 在澳大利亚政府的外交努力下获释

今年 成蕾出版了新书

《自由回忆录》

这应该是第一次有人如此详细的记录和描述了

所谓的指定居所监视居住是怎么回事

国安部门掌控下的牢狱生活是什么样子

那里关的都是些什么人

成蕾的这本书用细腻感性和悲悯的

笔触记录了这段残酷不甘回首的经历

也展现了个人如何在国家机器面前保持人的尊严和独立

成蕾你好

你好袁莉

我想先从2020年8月13日

那一天说起

就你到你工作的央视办公楼走进了一间会议室

一名男子对你说

成蕾 我代表北京市国家安全局通知你

你因为为境外机构提供国家机密而被调查

你能说一下

在那天之前你的生活是什么样子吗

我在北京当时已经待了八年了

然后作为单亲妈妈

一直生活都是

丰富多彩而又充实忙碌的

但是因为疫情的缘故

当时

我孩子们的学校

在二月份

被告知不会复课

所以呢

正好有个机会他们去

澳大利亚玩几个星期

所以他们去那以后呢

因为中国后来就关闭了国境

然后他们就回不来了

三月份给他们订的机票

他们就回不来

所以我当时跟我的孩子们已经分开了半年

也是在通过各种途径想把他们

能够让他们回来

跟我在一起的这种挣扎中

然后当时的

心态就是

每天突然有了时间

但是除了工作社交

然后就是忙着

怎么样把孩子们弄回来

我当时有一个想法 就是因为大家都

因为疫情都待在家里没法出国旅游

那么我们就

想在北京有那么多的大使们

那么他们对

国家的文化都可以进行这种

详细的介绍吧

而且我又对

我是个吃货对美食很感兴趣

我就想了这么一个节目

所以呢当我的领导让我去台里的时候

当时是以

就那一天 8月13号以谈这个新节目为由

我就还是挺兴奋的

所以到这个

心中最最不好的一个惊吓的这一刻的时候

这个落差是非常大的

那你能不能说一下就是那天接下来发生了什么

你最初是怎么理解发生在你身上的这一切的

那是你第一次和国家安全部门打交道吗

对直接的打交道那是第一次

间接的属于

朋友们 就是因为媒体朋友们都各种的

跟国安有过

被请去喝茶聊天的这种经历

所以也是

觉得比较神秘吧

但是 心里真的是没有什么准备

因为都不知道有监居

这么可怕的事情

在懵的同时 我其实还是

其实还是不是很紧张的

因为我觉得

这罪名听着

这么可怕那跟我肯定没关系啊

我干啥了

那我就配合呗

我就该说

有一说一呗

那肯定就没事了呀

所以他们

什么把我手机啊 包啊拿走 然后那一群的人围着我

然后到我家里去搜了好几个小时我都

带着一种

事实肯定

对吧真相肯定会 搞错了

对对对

然后

他们拿这些东西拿的越多越好

越多越能证明我的清白

一直到

到审讯的时候

我也是很坦然的

我说你问吧

那有什么

我没有做什么见不得人的事情

那接下来你被

就是我们刚才说的指定居所监视居住

你能跟大家解释一下这个奇怪的词是什么意思吗

你能描述一下你的

被指定居住的这个房间和你一天24小时是怎么度过的吗

我觉得监居就是一种

变相的折磨

而且 它是因人而异的

所以它根据你的身份 根据

从你身上能够

它觉得能够获取什么信息或者能

办定什么铁案

然后到你的配合程度然后你的心理承受能力

这都是

真的是为你量身定做的

所以呢 就有一个

单人床而且那墙都是软包的

然后有大概有16平米吧

但是我能够

活动的那个区域大概也就是个

顶多顶多的 八九平米吧

因为 我24小时

就每一分钟

都被两个看守

看着他们有三对

三对女的这个警卫都很年轻

然后 一个站着一个坐着离我非常的近

他们每十分钟就会换一个位置

20公分是吧就是站的离你就是40公分

40公分

对 就是 对方口臭然后放个屁那绝对是大家都在一起受苦的

上厕所看着 洗澡看着 睡觉也看着

就是挺瘆人的

然后 我随时要

就是我要

只要是要动

就必须要申请就是报告

申请站起来扫地上的头发

或者是

申请洗衣服

然后

这种所谓的锻炼的时间呢

就是他们两个人站着一个

人肉的一个通道

然后我在他们中间那个大概一米的这个宽度中呢

走那么一米半走到窗户

然后呢再又走回来

白天都得要端端正正的坐在那 是吧

对 是的 就是两手放在腿上

然后 也不能够翘二郎腿

那脚踝呢也不能够交叉

不能坐

不能坐的歪歪斜斜的 要坐正

就是要有那种

我在态度很好的思想

在这个思想改造中的这么一个状态

你晚上睡觉呢好像也是有规定的是不是

特别多的规矩

就是不能够对着墙睡

因为 这个日光灯24小时都开着

那么 一般的人都是喜欢在黑暗中入睡的

但是 因为很亮

所以呢你就会自然而然的想要对着墙稍微的

不是那么亮的

因为日光灯就在

你的头上放了

然后 你要是把胳膊去挡住眼睛也是不行的

然后把手放到被窝里也是不行的

所以就在失眠的同时呢

还得想着这些规矩因为

你要是忘记了他会把你弄醒

所以你好不容易入睡了

又被折腾醒了

你形容那段日子是没有钟表没有日历只有白墙

在这样的环境里面时间对你

意味着是什么呢

时间其实就没有意义了

因为 另外一方面的时间就是痛苦

你会觉得时间停止了你会觉得时间

走得太慢了

然后 你 好不容易有了一个

一点点的想法一个新的想法

因为你没有

获得任何外界的

这种刺激所以

你都觉得脑子都木了

但是你好不容易想到一个事情的时候呢

你只能想一会儿然后又没有了又是空白

又是 那种痛苦的海洋

想要 把你淹没

但是你又还要继续的 活下去

所以 怎么样跟自己

这种 各种的

脑子里的声音去斗争

各种心魔

真的

那个时候觉得自己如果是让自己

所谓的娱乐了几分钟都会很

很自豪

你怎么娱乐呢

就是自己跟自己玩成语接龙

或者是 自己在脑子里边翻译

翻译东西

自己问自己问题

然后 就会想哎呀

如果是在这能有一个人跟我聊天能有一个室友

我希望是谁

或者是我脑子里边会给各种人写信

或者是跟他们说话

甚至是自己脑子里

脑补了一个

地下棺材调频的这么一个电台然后我是

这个主持人

有各种的

可怜的犯人们

这种濒临疯狂和自杀的犯人们给我

打电话之类的

再一个就是当然了就是观察我的两个

每次两个的这个看守们

对你对这些看守还挺有同情的就是

你能说一下就是为什么你为什么要观察他们观察他们也是一个

打发时间的一个

而且其实 你想一想

除了最亲最亲的人有谁

这样近距离的这样

长时间的看过你

而且你们

其实在是在一个很亲密的一个距离之内

而且又不能说话

但是你都是人呀

大家都是有感受的

所以当他们生病了

他们难过的时候

我肯定会感同身受

就比如说那次

那个因为找不到替补的

警卫然后

他虽然是

可能是

闹肚子吧

就就没办法用

我的这个监视里面的厕所虽然也就

两米之外

因为有纪律

所以就只能站在那

难过到极点最后就

拉在裤子里

这是什么

这是什么他妈的制度

对这个这个细节我真的印象太深刻了

那你

后来知道了就是国安

要调查你的原因你能说一下是怎么回事吗

当你得知原因的时候

是什么感受

其实他们也没有说是什么原因

没有说我只是

从

各种的

渠道

来搜集

这信息然后来自己分析来拼凑

因为

他们开始

就我上庭的那天也就是

22年3月30号

我才知道

我才知道他们从4月23号就那年的4月份就开始监视我了

而这正好就是在澳大利亚要求

溯源就是疫情溯源的这个

几天之后

然后也不光是我唯一的

他们不光是监视了我还监视其他的在华的澳大利亚人

然后

在我的

这个比较乱的书桌上找到的

这个总理的工作报告

他们就拿这个来做

也拿了

看了其他的东西啊

但是

就是

真正的是

为了什么

我

通过各种信息的这个

收集和拼凑我只能说

这是

这跟澳洲关系

澳中关系有关的

他们开始就是比较

比较着重的问你的就是你在这个

总理报告发布之前提前7分钟

把一段话发给了你在彭博社的好友

范若伊

是不是

对

就是总理报告里面有一个信息说今年不会有经济增长目标

对

你当时就是

发给她的时候你有没有想到就说

这可能是有危险

风险的呢

没有

因为

我觉得

我是外籍的

然后

在央视

外籍人士不需要做保密培训

所以我认为我能接触到的

没有什么

而且

就觉得政府工作报告

你想当时我给那个

叫什么欧盟商会的会长 约古提

当时也就

也就是

那个同一时间吧

我给他看他说我都看过了

然后再给

那个北大的教授看他说给我

他说我来看一下

就没有

而且

在法庭上面他们给我念的证词说我的

就是在综合新闻那个组的同事

我都不知道他是谁啊

然后

据说他给我这个报告的时候跟我说了这是

什么机密

哪里有

根本就没有

这是编的

而且是一个几分钟以后就是全世界公布的事情哪有是什么机密呢

而且这个

这个报告上面也没有写是到哪一分钟你也知道在

国际这个

就在国外的媒体

那如果是有这样的

限制的话那上面都写的清清楚楚的

Unbuggled until 什么什么时间

但是这个所谓的早上7点半解密

是一年以后

就是

这个

法院检察官

把我的案子又打回给当时办案的警官说你这还需要一个报告然后他们又去找保密局

去出的这么一个文件

说解密时间是7点半

但是我觉得

就算是这个

报告那

用其他的东西做文章

也都是可以做出来

所谓的

铁证的所谓的

证据链的

没有什么他们做不到的

是是

你

发送就是你把这个这段话发短信的

这位记者范若伊

Haze是彭博通讯社的记者

也是你在北京最好的朋友 你花了不少的笔墨描写

你在监狱里面最低潮的时候你恨过她

你想把这个怨气发泄在她的身上

她的头上 你在书里面写到说

我怨恨她利用我 明知故犯的危害我 我怨恨她对别人

别人为她

的所得

付出的代价视而不见

我没有把她像我一样是为受害者因为我需要一个出口

一个可以发泄愤怒的对象

一个可以分享苦难的人

在我的脑海里我对她大喊大叫 你让Eva和Alex 就你的

两个孩子失去了他们的母亲

你这个自恋的婊子你知道每次你向别人询问

敏感信息有多危险

你后来 当你知道她也入狱的时候

你的感情发生了变化吗 你能讲讲你对这个Haze范若伊的

这种复杂的情感吗你真的怪她吗

我不是一个记恨的人

我是一个尽量的把 负面情绪 降低的人

所以在当时应该就是有这样的心理活动

恨她或者是特别愤怒的心理活动应该是我在

监居的 一个人生的低谷就是想死的时候

应该是大概

10月底那个样子

然后

后来

后来到得知她

也被抓

然后到

看守所

因为巧合

知道她大概关在哪

甚至在楼道里

听到

听到她楼道里的声音的时候

其实

心情是非常复杂的

因为

我觉得无论如何

没有人 应该在 在这个鬼地方

我 我难过

要跟别人来一起难过也没什么好的

甚至她后来还给我

在

她出去了以后还通过

大使

给我

传递就是说挺下去这样的

信息

她那个时候知道她出去了其实

心里也不好过

就是

她比你进来的晚 又出去的早是吧

但是

可以说

苦难

时间越长可能

心里还越来

越平和吧

而且

因为因为是好朋友而且知道她

很聪明也很

我们聊天都很有意思所以

当时也想过

可惜我们因为

都是涉案的

就是涉及同一个案子不能在一起否则

有她做室友多好

起码有好多事

都有共同点共同的看法

可以一起在吐槽

那你出狱以后你和Haze范若伊有联系过吗

你们就说曾经是最好的朋友

对

我给她发过微信 也发过instagram

但是她没有回过

而且她屏蔽了我

就你们曾经是最好的朋友你们

那个国安局他们拿出来了你们几万个五六万条的

你们的微信通信记录是不是

就是你们一天要发好多好多条的这个微信的人

就你怎么看他就是还

把你屏蔽了也不回复你的微信呢

或者你

不是微信就是你在instagram上这是墙外的

一种通讯方式

或者是她觉得

我说的那些话

她不爱听

因为

你想我在

2023年还收到她的两次

就我在看守所的时候收到她两次传进来的这个信息 一次是说

她听到过我在圣诞节那天在看守所唱歌

然后

还有一次就说让我挺住

但是

也可能因为我出来以后我说

就算是世界上所有的媒体

我都接受采访

我也不会接受彭博的采访

是不是这句话传到她耳朵了不知道

但是你受了那么多的苦

她也受了苦

就是像很多国安的案件那样你的案件就是进程非常的漫长

而且

就是法律规定

在这个过程中几乎是失效的

就是说没有什么法律

我印象很深刻的是你在书里描述

这个过程起初你觉得就是说我什么都没有做

就你前面说的就是说你们来查吧

但是到了后来呢你会有这种就是说也许我罪有应得这样的想法

就也许我真的做错了什么

这种转变是怎么发生的

你能讲一讲就是国安的这些人

他们做了什么

让你他们是怎么让你就慢慢内化了 我有罪 这个概念的呢

我觉得可能不光是国安吧 可能这个共产党体系下就特别注重

这种让你老是自我反思 自我批评

我是完全完全孤立的

就是你都不能想象到在这个信息时代 能够有这么一个地方你

联系不到任何人

而且你是

就是无论是精神上身体上都是完全的孤立的

所以当你有审讯的这种机会的时候

你反而还会挺兴奋的

因为我终于可以说话了

我记得有的时候可能一个星期我都只说了几句话

就除了那种报告上厕所

就没有

没有任何张嘴的机会

所以

当唯一可以帮助你可以跟你交流的人是警官的时候

可能就会有像斯德哥尔摩综合症这样的事情发生吧

你会觉得 哎

可能我真的是有问题

他们费这么多的苦心苦口婆心是吧

有的人还有人就是扮红脸 扮白脸的

有的人还表示的比较关心你

是不是

还有人会

根据我的个人的生活来给我提这样的建议

因为我什么都没有

所以他们就成了我的

世界中的唯一的人了

而且他们会不停地给我纸笔

让我写这种忏悔词吧

然后我们叫自我批评

自我批评对

其实到后面就成了供词

然后他们

我的书里有写到

就是在第一次写这个的时候

我还特别天真

我以为就是想写什么

以为像在国外一样的

真的就是自我

就是真实的表达

然后过了好几个月

我才知道他们要的就四个字

我就是认罪认罚

对

就这个一写了

就其他的细节都没有关系了

就是他们说什么就是什么

对

然后他们跟我谈了

苦口婆心谈了很多次

然后我才发现

他们其实

嗯

就是想让我认为自己有罪

然后再就是就是认了

意思就是你这事你就认了

就一切都OK了

我们就会给你书了

我们就

就会好像看高你一眼的

对对

所以慢慢的我就想着

我只有这样做

我才能够更加的

更快的能够去监狱

然后能够有家庭

有尤其我的孩子们来探视

然后我的脑子里

就有了这么一个概念

就是无论做什么

我就要赶紧去监狱

对

那那你能说一下

就是为什么你这个

还是在监狱里面待了六七个月

嗯

就是后来是这个这个中间

变就是转变到你去这个

就是Detention Center

我们叫它羁押中心吧

这个是一个什么性质的变化

哦

那简直是地狱和天堂的变化

我觉得人

长期的

这种高压的监视 再加上

极度的这种

孤立吧 被孤立

是非常的摧毁人的

所以

我一直觉得

嗯 虽然监居的伙食好很多

但是

一天一百块钱是吧

我记得

对对对

就他们警官自己的自助给我拿的

但是

我

宁愿

你给我什么差的

这种条件

我都愿意接受

我也不愿意监居这样的折磨

你在书里面

你也用了很多篇幅写食物

到了拘留所

就你刚才说到了拘留所

这个食物就一下子就变得非常的差

然后你你写这种食物

写这种贫乏的感受

你也花了不少的笔墨写

嗯

你在绝望和悲伤之外呢

你也在抗争和自我维系

比如说你用馒头屑

给狱友做这个蛋糕

所谓的生日蛋糕

然后是应该是用卫生纸卷发

甚至还教狱友英语

你还跟那个

还酿了酒呢

对

然后教唱歌

然后你你你跟大家说一下

就是也描述一下这个

到了监狱

这个拘留所

这个拘留所是一个什么样子

还有就说

你和你的狱友之间的故事吧

我特别特别喜欢

那个你们隔着厚厚的墙壁

和旁边的那个

旁边隔壁的

那个房间的那个狱友

用敲墙的方式对话

还有那个人

有一个人冒着风险给你送书

后来呢 还爱上了你

我觉得

我看的时候

我都有点瞠目结舌

我说这个都是可以做的吗

对

你稍微说一下

我真的觉得你

虽然就是非常非常的痛苦

肯定是非常痛苦

但你真的很有这种苦中作乐的

这种的天分

我觉得很不幸的是

大部分的中国人都很会苦中作乐吧

有的时候

你看你的狱友都不是这样子的

基本上不是这样子

你真的是

我觉得到了看守所以后

因为能够跟室友们一起交流

这个心理状况就好了很多

再加上慢慢的

他们觉得有了供词

有了所谓的证据链

那么就是等着上庭了吧

而且

作为一个比较喜欢

这个有意思的生活的人来说

那我每天得过得不一样

怎么不一样呢

就是在一个极度物质贫乏的一个环境下

其实你的创意是会被激发的

就一个很小的事

比如说我们突然一下子被告知

那个牙膏不能有盖了

就是买了新牙膏

就只能给你那个牙膏本身 那不会干吗

然后我们就开始用各种废的

这个小小锡纸 或者是塑料瓶来做

来叠一个

能够完美的盖上牙膏的一个盖子

这也是创造

而且这个也能

我们大家还在比

就谁的最好

跟隔壁的这个监视

有敲墙的这样的联系

当然后来我们是被告发

而且被惩罚了的

那当时能够做到

也是因为疫情

就是那一轮最厉害的

冲击北京的那个疫情

可能是在这个2022年下旬吧

可能看守所的人手也不够了

所以才

因为我们每个监视都有五个

这个摄像头

而且是有一个是直接看着

这个半透明的浴室的

我说半透明

就是从腰往下面是毛玻璃的

但实际上就是一个透明的

一个这么一个小间

里面有一个莲蓬头

然后有一个蹲厕

然后

所以你在里边

在厕所里边干嘛

他们也是看得一清二楚

也是看的

因为有的时候就因为在厕所里

什么待的时间太长了

或者在什么

非法时间洗衣服

就被

因为每个房间还有一个对讲

对讲的那个墙上的那个东西

你比如说午觉啊

然后晚上上厕所

你也要按一下那个对讲机

就是通知警官们

我现在要移动了

然后

这个其实也是挺影响大家休息的

但是而且随时他们都看到你

比如说有一次我在拥抱

就是她在哭

我拥抱我的室友

然后就 嗞的一下

那个警报就响了

然后就是警官严厉的声音就来

你在干嘛呢

然后那个

什么不要

意思就是不要在一起

不要碰她什么的

不要搂搂抱抱

反正经常会有那种

你瞬间的在做一件事情

你忘掉了

你是

你是一个监号

你是你不是人

然后你觉得啊

我是个朋友

或者是我

我想安慰她

或者是我

恶搞了什么

然后大家笑了

就是在这种一瞬间

突然一下子

那个警报一响

大家就

马上就回来了

就是我们

我们什么都不是

我们

我们连笑的资格都没有

而且我现在特别想说

就是对那些五毛们

就是黑我的

你们能不能有创意一点

对吧

就是能不能想一些

别光是在那说

在那说我老啊 丑啊

然后什么洋枪队啊

能不能给我看看一些 好玩的东西

对 你看你坐牢都能做得这么花样百出

就是就是啊 你黑我也得黑出点花样来

对对对

你能说一下

就是你们就是在这样

监视的这么情况下

而且你们的墙

应该是非常非常厚的

是完全听不到

隔壁的声音的

你怎么就可以来敲墙

来和他们对话呢

因为当时疫情比较严重

所以呢 就不让我们放风了

但是

每天早上会打开

风场的那个门

就所谓的放风

其实还是一个水泥盒子

根本就只能看得到一点

一点点天

然后就可以站

就是不能进风场

但是早上开门那一会儿呢

它就是让空气对流嘛

嗯

我就站在那个 风场的口那块

开始唱歌

然后后来就听见

隔壁的那个室友

特别大胆的 特别大声

他也可能去那儿

时间比我长一点

然后就说

什么 爱你的歌声啊

还是什么

我们监室是 112嘛

什么爱你112之类的

然后我说谢谢 就挺开心的

后来就开始

嗯

开始找

就是每到这个

开风场门的时候

就站在那个地方

所谓的聊天

其实是非常辛苦的

就是我得大声的喊

袁 莉

你 好 吗

而且这是冒着

极大的风险的

但是我们之所以是

两周以后才被发现

肯定也是因为

当时的警卫人手不够

嗯

然后

你们敲墙是

你能说一下是怎么敲

就是拼这个字怎么拼呢

对啊 我们 特别讽刺的就是我们不是间谍

但是 因为我们特别想

跟其它的人沟通

所以反而还用了一个

间谍的密码

这么一个沟通方式

嗯

其实很简单

就是a就是敲一下

z就是敲26下这样的

所以

我记得当时

是用英文那个沟通的

嗯

对

英文也有中文

因为我们还玩过成语接龙

但是就是只敲那个

每一个字的第一个字母

然后实在不行了

就特别大声的对着窗户

嚷嚷

希望对方能听见

有的时候就接了几个

就接不下去了

嗯

然后我就发现

隔壁有一个室友

特别的有想法

嗯

可以说是我见过的

这个最浪漫的人之一吧

因为

对

她能够给我

就是

敲了400多下这个

然后她给我敲的是拼音

然后敲出了藏头

算是藏头吧

嗯

藏头诗

对但因为不是诗

但是拼出来就是 爱成蕾

我当时还没有反应过来

但是我的室友

她比较厉害

就马上听出来了

我们都是赞叹不已啊

真的

唉

比起

那你后来

你说

我说比起我们

用这个ChatGPT来写情书

真的高级到哪去了

因为你在书里面

你也发出一问说

你说北京看守所里的

30多名囚犯中

有多好是间谍

而不是国际关系动荡的

附带损害

也许你可以说一下

就是你为什么有这种感受

在监狱里面

你

后面就是怎么能够感受到

就是中澳关系和你的案件

之间的关联

比如说我被抓的时候

当时要求溯源的是

澳洲的自由党政府

他们执政

到22年5月份

选举的时候

工党胜了

那工党一向是被视为

也的确是就更亲华的

一个党

所以说到那个时候

我已经被关两年了

那么这两年以来

澳大利亚的外交部

还有大使馆

一直都在帮我申请一个

我能够跟孩子们

说话的一个机会

因为我所知道的

加拿大人

他们都有

有过好几次的

跟家人的电话

这个并不是不可能的

但是无论如何

我们怎么申请

甚至圣诞节的时候

我说不打电话也行

就让我

你就放一段

孩子们的录音也可以

但是这个也被拒绝

直到工党上台以后

到当年22年的11月份

在印尼的20国峰会

然后澳大利亚总理

奥巴尼跟习近平会见了以后

然后过了三个星期

我就被批准

跟我妈妈和我的孩子们

有了三年多以来

唯一的一次电话

而且从工党上台以后

我就感觉到

当然也可能因为

这个外交部长黄英贤

也是比较关注我的案子

或者是

反正就是关系有了变化

直到我被审判

就是被判刑

能够看出

这个政治在一个普通人的刑期

是有很大的影响的

对对对

我看书的时候

有个感受就是

你从骨子里是澳大利亚人

就是你对于一个政府

可以对人的权利

彻底无情地剥夺

非常的气愤

而且非常的震惊

而且

你也曾经对律师有过一些

后来被证明是

不现实的一些幻想

你能不能讲一下

遭遇这一切的之前和之后

你的澳大利亚的身份认同

有没有一些变化

我以前一直认为我在语言

好吧到现在也是的

语言和文化上都是双重人格的

所以我在澳大利亚人面前

我会感受到就是很多

作为中国人的一些特性

然后反而一直

所以在看守所这几年

或者是被关的这几年呢

对于中国的政权

有了比较切身的体验

所以其实从这个方面

也对我也是也是好事吧

我爸就整个一个

我说吧

这种状态

你爸就是一个大反贼是吧

而且和你爸是不是

其实还有挺多的分歧的

对中共的这个政权

对啊

倒也不是说

我们也没有说上升到分

就是争吵吧

只是他认为

他那一代见到过的

这个邪恶比较多

所以他永远也不会忘记

但是因为我小时候没有

就是我出生一年以后

就文革就结束了

所以后面看

再加上十岁又来了澳洲

所以看到的

没有他看到那么多

但是

而且做商业记者

都是看着中国的经济

这么一步步的发展

这个国家都在变化是吧

对对

这也是一方面

然后作为澳大利亚人呢

其实我在看守所也

跟我的室友们

有这方面的交流

就是澳大利亚是什么样的

那么她们也很感动

比如说有陌生人

为我写签名信

去问外交部

要我的联系方式

给我写信

然后就是无论如何都支持我

相信我

我回来了以后

在街上在超市

有陌生人拥抱我

而且还有一点

我觉得是不是中国的文化

是比较硬的一个文化

就是我们的心都很硬

就比如说你在

中文的一个生态

去看怎么描写我

和看英文的环境怎么描写我

就觉得简直是两个人呢

就是为什么会大家认为

要把我怎么

什么来着

扒了皮然后再活埋

就是我觉得就算是在西方的

想要黑一个人

都不会用这样恶毒的写法吧

所以我就很喜欢

澳大利亚是一个很开放 包容

很公平

很善良的一个社会

对

我觉得你书里面写的就说

澳大利亚大使馆的人

是吧

他们在疫情期间

那么争取去看你

然后他们有一个

年轻人总是给你读新闻

是吧

读信 读新闻

什么就对

还有你的那个男朋友Nick

给你写的那些感人的信

我真的觉得

特别特别的感动

就是把你当成人

是不是

就是不管你是在什么环境下

我说句实话

当你是被冤枉的

但你哪怕是不是被冤枉的

难道你就没有做人的权利了吗

没错

因为我所知道的

在澳大利亚的监狱

是可以几乎无限的打电话的

我一听到这个都崩溃了

整个破防了

而且后来接触到的室友们

我也觉得

不是大家

其实有的时候

国人也不知道有这样的事情

而且他们甚至不相信

会有这样的

两个人看着你

24小时看你上厕所

看你睡觉

这样的一个制度

更不要说是体验到了

是是是

对

就是把自己当人

也要把别人都当人

这样子

我一直都说这个话

这样我们每个人的生活环境

才会好

对

所以我有的时候跟

那些同情心泛滥的西方人

聊天聊这个经历时候

他们就会说

难道就没有跟家人联系吗

他们不敢相信

但是在中国跟中国人聊这件事情

他们可能会说

我当时如果是也有过监狱

我经历过的更惨

或者是我们家人在文革

或者是在这种土改的时候

经历过的折磨更惨

所以都是被枪毙的

对

所以就好像我们的人性的标准

比较低一样的

包括警官们也老跟我说

你这够好的了

以前还有耗子呢

或者是什么什么知足吧

你就

就他们老会跟以前比

老觉得自己已经是进步了很多

但是他们就不会横向的比较

跟那些邪恶的西方国家比较

我的孩子们老跟我开玩笑说

你为什么不在挪威

如果那样你就有PS5

那游戏机玩了

就挪威的监狱真的是太人性化了

对

我还为此还上网查过

世界上最好的监狱

什么十大

真的吗

因为不是说你怎么样

对你的犯人也是

对于你的这个社会的人性化的一个

一个衡量标准了

对

那你现在就是你刚才看

刚才聊的就是

你现在还是会看就是墙内的消息

就是因为墙内这些互联网上

一直都有关于你

就实际上任何就是被打成间谍啊

卖国贼的人的谣言和网报

你这么热爱中国的人

我可以觉得

我真的觉得你是热爱中国的一个人

被贴上这样的标签

你是什么感受

感受特别复杂吧

因为中国是啥

对吧

而且我作为

而且我觉得我们对于

就只要别说是生在中国的

就只要长相是中国人

我们的标准

其实是很挑剔的

我们要求他所谓的这种爱国

就是不能说一句

所谓的反反华或者说是

我是反华

就中国不好就是反华

对是的

所以什么汉奸也是一个

特别被滥用的字眼

那这是什么意思呢

其实我们动的是

所谓的伤害了是谁呢

是普通老百姓吗

是所谓的国家吗

然后当时在我的案子中间

他们后来又找另外一个局

去出了一个证明

就是说我因为这个

给范若伊发的短信怎么样

什么来着

是损害了国家的什么尊严

还是什么的

所以我就觉得

我还真的有这么大的能耐吗

对

真的是

我们这个泱泱大国够小心眼儿的

对 绝对小心眼儿

七分钟之后是全世界都知道的信息

就把你关了三年多

而且是那么残酷的一种关押方式

就是你的案子开庭的时候

和你的判决出来的时候

就是当你得知你获释就会马上驱逐出境

你是怎么想的

就是你当时是一个什么样的情感

你还会想回到中国吗

这个问题问我的人特别多

然后我在书里也写了

我说有点像问一个被家暴过的女性

他会不会再回去跟他老公在一起

但是其实

对 后来我就说我的标准答案就是

如果我觉得安全

如果我觉得我是受欢迎的

或者说起码不是说被

还在网上被黑的

那么我是愿意回去

但是这两个条件可是

对 当时检察官跟我聊我的刑期的时候

就是那次感觉也特别的奇怪

就是居然我的命运还是可以讨价还价的

你说一下你和检察官的

就是你对于自己的刑期

你原来的期望是什么

然后他给了你几年

你竟然觉得大大的松了一口气

我当时读到那 我都心酸的不得了

你说一下

那是警官

警官说大概六年

然后后来检察官来看我

他就给我看了一本法律的书

就是说什么两条机密是多少年

然后两条秘密是多少年

然后两个一条绝密又是多少年

然后意思就是

我那就应该是

本来应该是超过五年的

那么经过他的不懈努力

给我砍价一样的砍到了五年

而且还给我免了这个附加的附加刑

附加刑就是驱逐出境

他说考虑到我的孩子们的父亲

是中国人在国内

那么呢

就是这样可以让他们

让我们能够方便

能够能让孩子们跟父亲团聚

但是后来又说

当然那个时候的讨论还是说

我的刑期是五年

直到最后给我判的刑是两年十一个月

所以后来这个还是有这个附加罪

附加刑的

那么在宣判的时候

我当然是觉得

这自由还有什么比自由更重要的吗

但是我也不知道

为什么驱逐出境的人就

就为什么有驱逐出境

然后就十年不能申请这么一个东西

是害怕我回国去继续兴风作浪吗

当然我现在要旅游的地方也太多了

所以你也不见得需要

也不至于老想着这个事

但是那个马建老师 他说了

他是已经习惯了

重获了天空

但是失去了土地的写作

我对这句话

就是听了以后很有感触

的确是这样

那你能不能跟大家描述一下

就你以前在央视国际频道的工作是什么样子

我看到你在一个采访中说

作为商业记者

我一直觉得自己是安全的

我会两种语言

我了解当地文化

我知道红线在哪里

但结果我完全不知道

我想知道你以前是怎么看待中国的审查制度

还有这种不透明的法律环境呢

我经常被问中国的新闻审查是怎么样的

那么通过我的观察呢

还有亲身体验呢

它是分就根据他的受众来不断的加级的

就是你的受众越精英越有

就属于是有把柄的

就能够他能够抓住你的把柄的

那么是越松的

最严的我觉得应该就是普通

不就是中文的电视老百姓

对就是一无所有的人

因为最怕就是赤脚革命了

那么这方面是最严的

但是英语或者说外语媒体来说

因为他的受众基本上就是懂英语的

在中国懂英语的

或者是在国外的人

所以其实我觉得审查还是挺少的

而且我一直天真的认为

天真的也好愚蠢的也好

认为我在这个央视英语频道的体制内

其实我还是能做一些起到一些改变的作用的

比如说我会尽量的请那些有不同看法的

尤其是国外的嘉宾

因为当时我特别不喜欢的一点

就是相比起CNBC CNBC有

各种的嘉宾

而且会随时都会去

我们有专门的请嘉宾的人

然后制片人就会去结交各种各样的人

然后才能给大家带来更多新鲜的视角

但是在央视

那个请嘉宾的人

他就会有我们叫他四大金刚

就是都是教授

然后每次来给七八百块钱

然后说的呢

就是肯定是

他们说的绝对安全

而且绝对是党爱听的话

但是我就特别烦他们

然后我的每天的目的

就是我的节目不要请他们

只要是我上节目的那个时候

我就尽量的请国外的嘉宾

再一个就是

只要我看见有什么新闻里边写着习近平

我就自动给它删了

就改成别的词

因为我觉得

或者是北京或者是中国

我就觉得这个个人崇拜

已经是没谱了

我也想和你再探讨一下

就是你对范若伊

Haze做新闻的看法

你在书里面写到

就是她知道自己想要独家

而这些独家新闻都是有敏感性的

她也经常会害怕他的消息源

其中也包括你

会被国安抓起来

你现在回头看

你怎么看她的工作

你觉得作为记者

她想要独家和消息源的个人安全

是不是构成这种不可调和的冲突

我觉得就是我想讨论一下

就是这个记者和信息源的

就是我们的

我们所谓叫source之间的一个关系

是一个什么样子的

我在里边的时候

就老想起那个小李子的电影

叫血钻

我就觉得在新闻界也有

以血的代价换来的新闻

换来的新闻

我就很因为现在这个国安概念

这个扩大了以后

信源的风险就越来越大了

可能以前还好吧

没有那么惨重的代价

但是现在

首先在中国的外媒记者就少多了

大家通过各种的什么抓间谍

国安方面的这些洗脑

也敢说敢跟外媒说话的

敢说真话的又更少了

那么如果有还有这样的稀有的

这个人存在

那么怎么样保护他们呢

你在书的结尾说

我希望读者能够区分中国

中国人和中共很长一段时间里

我对所有与中国有关的东西

都避而不谈

尤其是任何能让我想起

这个政权的东西

即使朋友们滔滔不绝的谈论

他们在北京的美好时光

我也会感到畏缩

由于中共政权无所不在

很难将其与中国科技

中国文化和中国人民区分开来

我现在正在学习区分我的感受

我可以坚决反对中共

侵犯人权的行为

而不会觉得自己是在否认

自己的传统

或攻击华裔

我希望我们都能自由地欣赏

中国人民的勤劳和智慧

享受深厚丰富的文化

同时也无所畏惧地揭露

在中国一些角落里

发生的镇压和酷刑

你能说一说就说

你为什么这样写吗

我觉得中国是一个

庞大的复杂的

又充满矛盾的

一个概念

所以

当

这个政权想要

他把

所有东西都混在一起

的时候

其实

他们想要做的是

稳定他们的政权

但是

我觉得

可能在西方 是

比较注重个人吧

就是没有个人

哪里来的

就是没有小家哪里来的大家

但是在中国宣传的是

只有大家你才有小家

没有国哪有家

对啊 像我们

每次在说

就包括有很多

这个比较天真的老外吧

到中国就看着

哎呀 高铁啊 什么激光秀啊

什么科技啊

但是他们就没有看到

这是

以什么样的代价来获得的

他没有看到一个个的

鲜活的生命那么多的 民工

多少年都没有得到

劳动的保障

甚至都拿不到

自己的劳动的报酬

多少个冤案

多少

多少人上访 被阻被打

当这些都不能

被报道的时候

你怎么能

说这是

你了解或者你看到了中国

我特别 反感 就是非常 简单粗暴的

来说中国的事

我也是

希望能够尽量的

为一个更 完整的 中国故事

添加我的声音吧

那 应该是到下个月11月11号

就离你获释返回

澳大利亚两周年

就是下周

就这周

因为现在已经是10月份了

10月11号

还有五天

对

那你

愿意分享一下

你现在的生活和状态

你还会经常想起

那三年多的事情吗

还有你的两个小孩当时那么小

对他们有什么影响

其实影响

我天天都能看见

因为我不在

只有我的妈妈

照顾他们俩

然后我儿子

就很长的一段时间

是跟我妈妈住在一起

我女儿去上寄宿学校了

所以呢让他是

特别早的就独立了

你被抓起来的20年的时候

你的孩子都分别多大

那时候是8岁和10岁

然后现在他们是14岁和16岁

我

虽然能看到

每个人的伤疤

也是每天在尽量的去

不光是自己愈合

也弥补

我的家人们

但是

我觉得更积极的一点是

感激我

2023年就出来了

而不是按照原计划

原计划也就是要到今年11月份

才能出狱的

如果那样的话

我觉得影响就更大了

估计我女儿就

很多方面都已经是半个大人了

那你现在还经常会想起来那三年多的事情吗

对于我来说

想这些事情

或者是出去做演讲 接受采访

还有写这个书

其实都是我的愈合的

很重要的一环

你并不回避是吧

完全不回避

我还觉得这个让我感觉

特别自由

因为你想

整个国安的体系 都是一个

不光把你关起来

要摧毁你的大脑

而且要改变你的思想

而且要让你闭嘴

这样的一个机制

让你自动的阉割

让你再也不敢发声

然后我现在在做的一切 包括

继续做新闻

包括写专栏

包括跟你聊天

昨天晚上

跟慕容雪村 跟吕新华 还有冯崇义聊天

这些都是

能够让我

觉得自由的事情

所以特别好

你在

你在里面实际上

还是看了很多的书

三百多本

你以前是一个很爱看书的人吗

我小时候是的

当了妈妈以后

就没那么多时间了

你能说一下

就说你在里面

你最喜欢的书

是什么

这个分阶段

兼具的时候

就是追求密度

最好就是那种

比如说那本《宋词鉴赏》

每天可以看可以背

虽然到最后就成了

对中国的古代文化

有点审美疲劳的

感觉

就是一看到月亮

就多愁善感

一看到什么下雨

什么梧桐

就是各种的悲呀

然后到了

因为那时候觉得小说不禁看

就不行

到后来

特别喜欢看

都是外面不怎么看的

比如说诗歌

科学的书

哲学的书

历史

因为都会让你对

自己的

这种处境

有一种新的想法

而且特别喜欢看

能够跟室友们分享

能够聊感受的书

毕竟每天都

除了这个就没什么别的

东西好聊了

大家的人生故事

都讲了八百遍了

你获释以后

还给很多激励过你的作家

写了邮件许多人也回信了

其中包括台湾作家

龙应台

你能分享一下你为什么

给他们写信吗

我觉得他们曾经给过我

那么珍贵的礼物

我一定要让他们知道

他们的文字

因为不光是我

在监视里有一本书

大家都分享

除非是心里有这种膈应的

然后

可能别人看书只是

消遣

但是在监视

尤其是国安看的监视的

那么一个环境

那简直就是救命的

简直就是

像

像药品

像

反正是太珍贵了

所以我一定要让他们知道

而且他们每个人都

非常感动

而且我在智利

还见到了

438天

历险纪实的

这本书的作家

龙应台

到我们家来喝茶

然后我们一块去看了袋鼠

还一块吃了饭

我觉得这是

苦难是

当时难受

但是其实

就像我们

对吧

通过大便能够种出

芳香的花朵一样的

苦难也可以变得有意义

也可以变成财富

你真的是一个

非常的

就是很正能量的人

用共产党的话来说

对

那我们

请每一位嘉宾

推荐三部书

或者是影视作品

你有什么推荐

好难选啊

才三本

对就三本

比较俗气的

可能大家都看过的

就是《人类简史》

枪炮 细菌和 国家

和钢铁

因为这都属于

让你的思想体系会有

比较

就是比较大的启发的这种书

还有

就是

我特别喜欢看一本英文小说

我不知道翻译成中文没有

叫做All the Lights We Cannot See

好像还被拍成电影了

这是

文笔优美

而且虽然是

背景是二战有很多的苦难

但是里面的

人的善与恶

描述的

非常的好让我当时

特别感动

对

你当时在监狱里面最爱唱的

那个歌叫什么

是一个

一首宗教的歌

对

Amazing Grace

因为

它很讽刺

就写它的人当时还是

曾经有过黑奴的

但是

这首歌

无论是歌词还是歌曲

都给

多少代的人带来了慰藉

我记得后来

我快走的时候新来了一个室友

然后第一天她到

也是很懵的状态

我们一般就是在

午饭之后

就在那假装散步

其实是在唱歌

然后还不能互相对视

就只能是偷偷摸摸的

然后随时注意着

上面那个玻璃的

那个

不是有一个通道有人在那监视着我们

看有没有人影

然后我们哼唱了一遍以后

他就泪流满面

你愿意给我们唱一点吗

比起中国的

平均的卡拉OK的水平

我的都是不及格的

但是我就

随便唱吧

其实当时

我特别喜欢唱的

有一首歌

它叫做《我想知道爱是什么》

然后就会

真的就是望着

天空的方向

I wanna know what love is

I want you to show me

对了

在除夕的时候

跟几个朋友在一家墨尔本的

湖南餐厅 岳阳餐厅吃饭

后来老板娘特别好

但是他们就在那打牌

我们就在那一边喝酒

后来我就

一边哭一边唱了一些

当时曾经跟室友们一起唱的

我希望我们还能在

我们聊到的那样

2032年在布里斯班奥运会能够来一个

同学会

同学会

我希望这次节目出来以后

有任何知道他们的事的人

跟我联系

好

他们也可以在

Instagram上面找到你

就叫成蕾

没错

可以给你发私信

有办法的时候

就给你发私信

说一下他们现在情况怎么样

好

谢谢成蕾

我们下期再见

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
prison /ˈprɪz.ən/ B1	noun - a building where people are kept as a punishment for committing a crime
freedom /ˈfriː.dəm/ B1	noun - the condition of being free; the power to act or speak without restraint
investigate /ɪnˈves.tɪ.ɡeɪt/ B2	verb - to carefully examine the facts of a situation, event, crime, etc., to find out the truth
detain /dɪˈteɪn/ C1	verb - to keep someone in official custody, usually in a prison or police station
suffer /ˈsʌf.ər/ B1	verb - to experience pain, difficulty, or loss
release /rɪˈliːs/ B2	verb - to allow someone to leave a prison or a hospital, or to free someone from something that has kept them in one place noun - the act of setting someone free from a prison or something that limits their freedom
friend /frend/ A1	noun - a person who you know well and like, and who you spend time with socially
family /ˈfæm.əl.i/ A1	noun - a group of people who are related to each other, especially parents and children
government /ˈɡʌv.ən.mənt/ B1	noun - the group of people who officially control a country
time /taɪm/ A1	noun - the way in which we measure how long things last
life /laɪf/ A1	noun - the existence of a human or animal, or the period of time during which they exist
cruel /ˈkruː.əl/ B1	adjective - deliberately causing pain or suffering to people or animals
independent /ˌɪn.dɪˈpen.dənt/ B2	adjective - not subject to the control or influence of another person, organization, or country
think /θɪŋk/ A1	verb - to have an opinion or belief about something
torture /ˈtɔːr.tʃər/ C1	noun - the act of causing great physical or mental pain in order to persuade someone to do or say something, or for the purposes of punishment verb - to cause great physical or mental pain to someone