– English Lyrics

Lyrics & Translation

[English]

We have to realize that we've been sort

of brainwashed into believing that

anytime our kids aren't with us, they're

in terrible danger of being kidnapped by

a guy in a white van looking for his

puppy or also tragic, not getting into

Harvard.

And as a result,

terrible, I don't even like to think

about it. Um,

but the upshot is that we are spending

way more time with our kids than our

parents spent with us, usually helping

them do things that they could do on

their own. And the call it the adult

takeover of childhood because it's it's

so vast that the uh what is it?

University of Michigan did a study two

years ago and they found that parents

want to give their kids independence.

They recognize its importance, but the

majority of parents of kids age 9 to 11,

which is tween, right? Kind of old, um,

will not let them play at the park with

a friend, will not let them walk to a

friend's house. And if they're at the,

you know, the store shopping together,

only 50% will let their kid go to

another aisle. Okay, that's the real

statistic. That's University of

Michigan. So sending your kid for a can

of peas is like sending them to NAM.

Okay, it's just crazy. We got to get

braver than that. We got to get brave

enough to send our kids to the canned

food aisle or to the park before their

voice changes. So how

Hi, I'm Lenor Scanazi. I am president of

Let Grow and I am the founder of the

free range kids movement. First, for

people who aren't already familiar, what

is free range parenting?

It's the idea that kids are smarter and

safer than we give them credit for. So,

they don't need us. They don't need us.

Not that they don't need us at all, but

they don't need us to help us that much.

They don't need us to supervise that

much. I'm always interested in ideas

like this where um to me a lot of it

seems like extremely straightforward and

yet it's often presented as like with

the controversial idea that kids should

have independence. So why do you think

people regard this as controversial?

I guess there's a couple reasons. One is

it's more fun if it's controversial. It

gives you something to talk about. Two

is I think we have gotten to the point

where we've forgotten that kids can do

anything on their own. I mean, you see

parents I once talked to this guy and he

said that every morning he takes his

seven-year-old to the bus stop and they

live two houses from the bus stop and

then he waits there. And I said, "Why?"

And he said, "I have no idea."

Uhhuh.

And that's that's what I'm trying to

make people look at and go, "Come to

think of it, that makes no sense.

Goodbye." You know, I'll be here or I'll

be at work. I mean, all of parenting is,

but you in particular and and the ideas

that you're um known for are at the

intersection of not just parenting, but

also culture and media and um fear and

ideas about like community and others.

Like that you're hitting at all of these

pieces that are real fault lines and

insecurities in our society.

I'm so glad you noticed that because I

feel like I wouldn't be doing this for

all these years if it was just here's

how to feed your kid a balanced diet or

something like that. But it does feel

like how did we get from my generation,

which is a long time ago, when even the

stay-at-home moms stayed at home, right,

and let their kids go out into the world

and lived without knowing anything about

them from 8:30 in the morning till 3:30

in the afternoon and then again from

4:00 till 6:00. And somehow that was not

only considered normal, nobody was

having a breakdown. Nobody was saying,

"Aren't you worried?" And nobody was

giving us up my parents updates. And

what happened to being able to live with

not seeing and knowing everything your

kid is doing every second? That's a huge

cultural shift. And it's a burden on

parents because now they feel that they

must be in the know and they must be you

know tracking or talking to the teacher

or or you know just checking in or

putting a kid in some organized activity

where somebody else is watching them.

How did we get to the point where we

don't trust our kids, our neighbors, our

own parenting at all? Before we get even

deeper into the conversation, I feel

like whenever we talk about parenting

topics and kid topics on the show, I

always just want to give like three I

don't even want to call them

disclaimers, but three things that I

really believe. So, you know where I'm

coming from, which is the first one is

that parenting is really hard and it

requires making an enormous amount of

decisions that no one could possibly be

prepared for.

And and many of those decisions will be

quote unquote wrong or suboptimal. And

that's okay because nobody ever had a

perfect parent. Like that was literally

the second thing I was gonna say which

is great. I love that which is like you

there's no way to get it right and it's

not even possible or desirable to get it

all right.

And then I think the last one which is

important I I'm a parent. I love being a

parent. I love having my son. But I also

really believe that

your life is just as full, complete and

meaningful if you don't have kids

that you just live a different life, not

a worse or less than life,

right? But I think these questions about

like trust and independence and what do

we believe a society is for

I think those are questions that apply

to individuals whatever age you are

whether you have a kid or not.

I think a lot of the push back on this

idea that kids should be alone at and do

something in any way

is based in this fear like something bad

will happen to them a crime will happen

to them. It's an explicit fear and it

comes from this idea that like the world

is bad and people are always out to get

you,

right?

That's a hard thing to push back on and

obviously you spent a long time pushing

back on that.

Yeah. So, let's talk about the belief

and then we'll talk about how to how to

maybe counter the belief.

But, um, there's a belief a lot of

people share that the best way to

prepare your child for the world is to

tell them, you know, it's a it's it's a

mean world out there. You better be

prepared. Don't be a sucker. People are

out to get you. you know, don't let them

take advantage of you. Always be on your

guard. And there was this really cool

long study, and you guys are at TED.

You'll go look it up, right? Uh that

found that these are called prior, I

think, like what is your prior belief in

the world. And parents who tell their

kids that think that they're doing them

a favor because they're making sure that

they won't be psies. They won't be

doormats, right? They won't be taken

advantage of. But somehow there was a

giant long-term study done of kids who

were told that versus kids who were

told, you know, most people are pretty

nice and yeah, I'll keep your eyes open,

but don't be distrustful. You, you know,

you can you can depend on the world. And

the kids who were told, don't don't be a

psy

relationships, worse jobs, less money,

worse health, like physical health and

mental health. And so the ironic thing

is that, you know, we've been told that

it's good to not um to prepare your kid

by telling them the worstc case

scenario. But in fact, that doesn't help

them. What I found over the years is

that you don't there's there's no way to

tell anybody, oh my god, the odds are so

small that anything bad will happen to

your kid because they always go to the

worst case scenario. I call it worst

first thinking. You go to the worst case

scenario and proceed as if it's likely

to happen. So, the only thing I've seen

that counters that very um that that

deep fear is being sort of pushed to let

your kid do something even before you're

ready because you might never be ready

and you say, you know, like it. So, the

let grow homework assignment. It's

called the let grow experience is when

kids get the assignment, go home and do

something new on your own with your

parents permission without your parent.

So, then your kid goes to the store and

they come home beaming, you know, cuz

they got the milk or they got the the

stick of butter. What is it? the stick

of butter and a loaf of bread and a

carton of milk like on Sesame Street or

they totally screwed up and they forgot

to get the change and they lost their

mitten and and it's still okay because

even if they screwed up it was okay and

only that real life experience of your

kid being separate from you doing

something on their own changes you

because parents are hardwired to worry

but they're also hardwired to want to be

raising a competent human being who will

exist when they're gone. Right. And so

you get this real flood of I guess

endorphins or just confidence and that

allows you to do it again.

A parallel that I've thought about when

in preparing for this interview is I

really love to swim

and I love being in the ocean or lakes

or rivers and

of course

if I'm swimming in the ocean, it is also

true that there are sharks or stingrays

or or something somewhere in this vast

expanse of water. And it would be really

easy to say like because there's the

chance

of a shark, I should not enjoy this

thing that I really enjoy, but I can

read the statistics and understand that

I'm like far more likely to be killed by

a vending machine falling on me than a

shark. And then

watch out.

Yeah. And so I don't avoid vending

machines. And the only way to like get

over that like visceral fear for me at

least is to just like go and be in the

water and then realize like it's okay.

I didn't get attacked by a shark and it

was so great. It felt really good. And

then I keep going and it feels better

every time. And eventually the idea of

like a shark attack, I'm like, "Yeah,

but I also could get into a car crash on

the way to the beach."

Oh, much more likely. Yeah.

Much more likely. Um, and I feel like

that experience is way heightened with

parenting, but you kind of have to have

that over and over of like something

might happen, but it probably won't. And

the only way to get out of that visceral

thing is to just allow the kid to do

some version of this.

We had a psychologist named Camilo Ortiz

do a uh what is it called? a pilot study

of independence as actual therapy for

kids with a diagnosis of anxiety

and normally he does cognitive

behavioral therapy but uh he recruited

four kids he recruited four families

where uh the kids had like not just like

oh I'm scared but like you know heart

palpitations or they couldn't go to

school I mean sort of off the charts

worse than just everyday anxiety and uh

the way he treated them was the first

week he just had the two parents come

and he talked to them and he found out

like the main reason that they were

there. And in one case it was uh a

nine-year-old, no, a 10-year-old who was

afraid to go upstairs and downstairs in

his own home. And in another case, it

was a girl who was afraid to sleep in

her own bed, nine years old. And then he

had the parents come with the kid. And

normally

in cognitive behavioral therapy, it'd

be, "Well, kid, you know, I hear you're

afraid to go upstairs in your own house.

How about tonight you go up for five

minutes and come down and see how that

felt, and then tomorrow, you know, next

week we'll do 10 minutes." He didn't

talk about that fear at all. He didn't

mention the deficit or the problem. And

instead, he said, "You're 10. You know,

I've been talking to your parents about

how you're probably ready to do more

than they let you do. What are some

things that you want to do that you

haven't done on your own?" And in fact,

that 10-year-old wanted to walk home

from school. He wanted to take the Long

Island Railroad. And he wanted to do

some other things. And his job was to do

one new thing either every day or every

other day for four weeks. And he did

these things. And it really changed him

to the point where that was like over

the summer and then came the new school

year and it was he was about to go into

middle school which is a new school and

of course because this is what I say

it's our culture that's sort of driving

us crazy that the school sends home a

new school year is looming and of course

your child will be completely flumxed

and confused and probably intimidated

because they have to find a locker and

they're going to meet new people and

there's shiny slippery floors. whatever

it is, you might want to come with them

just to ease the transition. And he told

his parents, "Uh, no, I I got this." And

he went to school by himself that first

day. And he came home and he said, "I

was like the only one there without my

parents."

So to me, it says so many things. It

says that a little confidence goes a

long way. Knowing that your parents

trust you goes a long way. And then you

have a culture undermining you every

step of the way, pretending that going

to a new school is so hard that no child

should ever have to do it without, you

know, parental guidance, which is not

true. We can all go to a new school and

make our way.

It also feels like there's this real

hesitance to believe that

you can learn these skills, that like

skills are learnable. You know, it's

like I have to do it for my kid because

like there's there's some sort of set

level of ability that they have and they

only get it by getting older, not by

trying. Right.

Yeah. Or they only get it by being

specifically taught. I was reading some

meme yesterday. Shows you where I am at.

I love the reading a meme.

I was Well, there are some words. Um,

and the words on this one were, "If

school started at age zero, there would

be, you know, classes on how to teach

your child to walk because we've started

to assume that everything needs adult

guidance and specific instruction as

opposed to things kicking in,

but a lot kicks in and and we don't see

it anymore because we do have all these

classes to teach kids things." And so

that's why my whole TED talk boils down

to I hope the title they give it is

spend less time with your kids because

when you do they will start learning

stuff on their own and they will be

clumsy and take minor risks and

sometimes be you know mean or or hurt or

whatever and you know that's okay

because that's how they get to this

competence. To think that it's all

adult-ledd is like nobody taught you to

speak, right? And that's because

curiosity and the desire for things like

the desire to communicate, the desire to

make things happen are innate. And we

keep forgetting that there's any innate

curiosity or drive in kids. And you know

the whole teachable moment idea, let

them have some curiosity of their own.

And what looks like doawling and what

looks like inefficiency is how you

become efficient. Right? So my son is a

toddler

and because of that I get fed a lot of

you know the social media algorithms see

me a lot and I do think that everything

you're saying really resonates with what

I like with my prior beliefs and what my

inclination is and also I think one of

the challenges is especially since I'm

doing it for the first time

there's this fear and guilt

and fear of shame.

Yeah. And so like you gave the example

of like it's not like you needed to

teach them how to speak, but literally

on my phone I'll get videos that are

like if you don't do this your child

will not learn how to speak correctly.

Make sure that you're mimicking the

sounds back to them. like they that is

like a very common thing that I see on

there and I I have the same thought as

you and but

wait a minute how dare they how dare

they undermine you that way and turn

parenting into this huge drag and

fearfilled experience that's just so

unfair.

Well, that's what I that's my question

for you is because I feel like I have a

fair amount of confidence in myself as a

parent.

Partly because I worked at an elementary

school and did Yeah, I taught fifth

grade and

You did? Oh my god. So, I kind of have

been around kids and also I just

naturally really like being around kids

and playing with them and so

um I have a fair amount of confidence

but it is hard. Yeah, exactly. It's it's

hard because you're like there is a very

strong feeling as a parent of like well

you don't really get another shot at

this like if I mess it up then maybe

they're going to be messed up for life.

That's so interesting you use that

phrase, the mess up phrase, because

that's the phrase that I've been hearing

a lot among kids.

And when people talk about kids being

anxious and depressed, one of the things

is that they are so afraid of messing up

that they're sort of retreating

and and of course, I don't even want to

talk about like social media and the

idea of being videotaped while you're

messing up. So then there's that whole

other layer of potential embarrassment.

But um you know, did you mess up walking

into the room? What if you tripped? Oh

my god, that guy cannot walk. You know,

I mean, nobody's perfect. And the idea

that that there is some straight path

and otherwise you're deviating and your

kid is not never going to talk because

you didn't say, "Honey, this is a cup of

tea."

It's so wild. I mean, it's really

interesting that we have a culture that

can drain us of so much common sense and

confidence. And often it's so that they

can instill something else, which is a

class or a book or a product that you

have to buy.

And you know, I like our country. I like

capitalism. But the easiest dollar to

get from any human being is a dollar of

a parent that you've scared that somehow

your kid is going to be hurt or fall

behind. But I have a solution.

Absolutely. I've spent a lot of those

dollars.

Don't spend anymore.

Okay. So, so this is this is a big

question for you, which is what is the

the end goal of this movement that

you're leading? What what how does

society change when we embrace this? How

what does what's the big shift in the

end?

I think it would be a sort of trust

revolution like you would start trusting

yourself. Evolution has created a way

for kids to get ahead. even if you

weren't speaking three million words to

them at dinner tonight,

um you would trust your neighbors more

because your kid would be walking to

school and you'd realize that they were

fine and in fact, you know, two doors

down the lady gave them a ball or

whatever. So, it would be trusting the

school that you don't have to see

pictures from them every day. You don't

have to get a report from them every

hour how the kid is doing. It'd be

trusting the camp. You don't have to see

if your kid is smiling at the cookout.

It would just be sort of breathing

easier. And one of the big lies of our

culture is that the more information you

have um the more easier you can breathe,

right? Oh, you know, you'll be tracking

your child. Finally, you'll have peace

of mind. No, my mom had peace of mind

because she trusted me

to walk to school and trusted the

neighbors not to kill me and eat me,

right? And and information is sort of

the opposite of trust. So, this is an

unformed idea, but um Adam and Eve are

in the Garden of Eden and a snake comes

along and says, "Look, you can track

your kids." Right. Right. It's like,

"Oh, that'll give me peace of mind."

Yes. You'll have knowledge. You'll know.

When I have my phone, I show people that

my Maybe this happens with your kid,

too, as a toddler. the the daycare

center that she sends her kid to sends a

report at the end of the day that tells

you, you know, when they peed and

whether it was number one, you know,

number two or number one and how much

they ate and all this superfluous,

completely unnecessary information,

unless your kid was really ill and you

were getting information from the NICU

on like this worked for them or finally,

you know, they could eat something. But

treating everything as if it's so close

to death that you better have every bit

of information on are they surviving,

are they thriving is a really radically

crazy way to look at childhood and your

kid. And it drives you crazy the same

way if your kid was really ill. And so

to be able to step back from that is the

only way you can breathe easier. The

only option for us to feel confident and

hopeful as parents is trust or faith or

whatever you want to call it other than

constant information and constant

intervention. And we're being told the

opposite.

Absolutely. I think that one of the most

challenging things that I've had to do

as a parent so far is a really small

one. He was born a little he was born

early

and so there was a genuine need at

first. Well, there's certainly a lot of

fear, but there was also a genuine need

to track how much he was eating at

first.

Okay.

And so we had a notebook and we would

write down how much he ate.

And once he was doing fine,

we kept doing it and and uh a lactation

consultant came and, you know, helped

out with a lot of stuff, but then she

asked us, "What's your plan to stop

tracking?"

Oh, God bless her.

And I was so surprised by that. And I

genuinely felt like that was one of the

hardest transitions of the whole

parenting journey was to decide like

this thing that feels like very active

and I'm doing it and when I do it I

protect my son. And then I had to be

like actually it's okay if I don't know

how many ounces he ate today. It doesn't

matter. He's fine. It was really hard to

stop writing it in the notebook because

at the end of the day I could add it up

and go looks like we're good parents.

And then the next day I when we stopped

doing it, it was like I guess he's okay.

Yeah.

And that had to be I I guess I'm a good

parent because I got him to a place

where I don't need to do that. But that

was a big mental shift.

Yeah. I I'd say just accept the fact

that you're a good parent, period.

Without any evidence,

okay? Because there will be evidence

along the way that you think you're a

terrible parent because your kid does

something stupid or bad. And it's not

that you're a bad parent. It's that

people are people,

right? And when you stopped writing this

down and it was like a week later, did

you feel better that you weren't writing

it down?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

But it was the the the transitional days

were the really hard ones.

Right. So that's what that's what

LetGrow is trying to do. We're trying to

make we're trying to be that lactation

consultant in a way. It's like I know

you think you have to walk your kid to

the bus stop. I know you think you have

to watch every soccer game. I know you

think that things are better if you're

in the backyard with them. Oh, I'm not

paying you. I'm not interfering. I'm

just like, "Oh, do you need a band-aid?"

Yeah. Not interfering. Oh, do you need a

sip of water? Not interfering. Oh, you

know, it's his turn. Anyways, if you can

take that step back, then you get to

that point like you were a week later

when it's like, "Oh, this is going okay.

Oh, I can trust my kid's, you know, guts

and internal system and and their

health. And once you can do that, then

your kid is is I don't want to say

better off because that becomes this

judgy thing again, but you can breathe

easier, right? So, I'm going to beg

here. Um, our programs are free. All our

materials are free. If you go to

letGGrow.org

and you click on schools, if you're a

teacher or principal or whatever, or you

show it to your school, you can just get

the LetGrow experience, which tells all

the parents in the school to let their

kids do something new. And that's like

the lactation expert. It is a trusted

authority, the school, telling you that

you can take a step back and let your

kids step up. And once you've done it a

couple times, then you will breathe

easier. And then you will see other kids

around in the neighborhood. And then

there will be kids doing errands for

you. And then there will be kids just

saying like, "I can do this myself." And

you will feel great. And you will

actually have a little free time.

There's so much that's really practical

that like you can do today. So let's

look at a couple different ages of kids.

Um

if someone has a

say a toddler,

a toddler. Yeah. Yeah. We can start with

me. Let's start. Say a toddler. How can

you start uh embodying these principles

um at at an early age?

The best book about this I thought was

certainly not mine was a book called

hunt gather parent. I'm sure she's given

a talk or will um Michelene Dloff or

something and she says that uh just like

there's an innate drive for a lot of

things like eating and you know sleeping

there's an innate drive in kids to help

out they really want to be part of

something and the part of something is

your family or your community. I didn't

read this book when my kids were young,

so it didn't work. But it seems like a

great idea for other people, which is

have them help out. And I know it takes

forever and I know they will spill and

they'll do a lousy job of cleaning up,

but if you could have them like, you

know, fold the napkins for dinner or

sort the laundry. Not that I even sort

the You don't have to sort your laundry,

just do it on cold. It's so obvious. Um,

but just have them do some things. They

love being part of stuff and you and um

there was a lecture here or talk um by

Jennifer Wallace about how kids want to

everybody wants to matter. Well, you

know, weave them into the fabric of

everyday life and then they don't even

have to question that. Of course, I'm

the kid who takes out the garbage. And

as they get older, just have them do

more stuff in the real world and then

have them do it without you. And they

can always do it with a friend or a

sibling. So, if you're afraid of them

just being by themselves at the grocery,

have them go with a friend. But there's

nothing more exhilarating than being

competent. I mean, it feels great. I

feel great. I just did my TED talk. I'm

done. I have I like the pinnacle of

competence for me. It feels so good. Why

would we take that away from our kids by

doing everything with them and for them

and always assisting them, you know, the

message they get is that you love me and

you don't think I'm really that smart.

And it feels like when kids get to be

teenagers, they have a very natural push

of like even if you are trying to not

have them be independent, they're going

to say like I want to be independent. I

I I I need this space. Um

I wonder I wonder if that's getting

extinguished too. I've seen kids who are

in middle school, maybe not high

schoolers,

they seem sometimes, and I haven't seen

that many schools, and and I've seen

kids in school, so maybe that's that's

the problem, but they seem really

passive.

And you want that drive to be there even

if it drives you nuts

for thinking about like the practical

thing that someone could do. What if

they are

they've they're listening to this,

they watch your talk, they read your

book, and they're like, "Okay, I'm I'm

kind of sold on this, but I haven't been

doing this."

Oh, so so sorry. What's the first step

to to start?

Send them out to help you. Do something,

you know, go get something. Go run an

errand. Go talk to the neighbor. Um,

help me with this or do this instead of

me.

I've been doing this for you. I bet you

could do this now.

It's It's interesting because it really

is so simple, right?

It's so simple that I'm supposed to be

writing now

a 30 days to a LetGrow kid. And I have

resisted this for 17 years because I

think like duh.

Yeah. You know, it's like open the door,

let them go play outside, let them I

keep saying the same things. Have them

run an errand, have them get themselves

to their guitar class, whatever. And I'm

realizing that people do want

instruction because we've almost been

instructed to expect instruction. And

when you just told me at the beginning

of this talk that you're getting stuff

in your social media feed every day on

how to talk to your kid and feed your

kid and whatever else you're getting.

Yeah. I guess I didn't realize how much

prescription was being shoved down

parents' throats and I didn't want to be

part of that,

but if that's how people get their

information and sort of get get the

permission to do new things, then I got

to I got to get with the program. I got

to write that thing.

I do think that I do think that there's

so much of that information out there

and I do think that this makes so much

sense. I also think that it is really

countercultural. There there are a lot

of for forces that are saying like

having your kid be not immediately

supervised, not instructed in all of

these things. That is a wild radical

idea even though it's so simple. That's

what that's the message that I get from

the parenting media that is served to me

and from the parents on the playground

and all the other places is like that's

wild. But if people understood how much

kids learn when they're not with us and

when they're not in a class, then they

wouldn't keep thinking that it was like

either kids were being safe and educated

or lying and they're in danger.

So the Yale study uh took parents coming

into a museum in Philadelphia and they

told group A, the kids were like five

years old, your kid has to put on all

this hockey gear um because that will

get them in the mood for the museum. Mh.

And then group B was told, um, your kids

have to put on this hockey gear. And let

me tell you, every time they're trying

to figure out how to make, you know, how

to do that toggle or how to pull on that

boot, they are learning. Each of those

is a learning experience. And then they

clicked to see how many times parents

were helping the kids. And the ones who

knew that it was who' been told this is

a learning experience intervened half as

much.

Wow. because they are immediately

recognized like okay he's struggling but

their signapses are building you know

and cognitive ability is kicking in. If

if everybody understood that about

independence that even when a kid is

waiting at the bus stop and the bus

doesn't come and it's late realizing

like oh I should go home again or I

guess it's time for me to walk to school

all that's executive function that's

paying attention that's a agency the big

word of the year agency. then maybe they

could step back because they would see

how much is going on when they're not

teaching them and not watching them. And

that's also the what I want people to

recognize about play. Like when kids are

given time to just just play. Oh my god,

it's just child's play. I wish they

would get that play out of the way so

they could get back to learning. You're

learning so much when you're playing and

you're making friends and you're getting

exercise. And so there's like it is the

most nutrientdense thing that kids could

do for their minds and their bodies and

their future selves and their social

lives and their joy,

right? And we're all worried about kids

being anxious and depressed. Look, well

h we have a natural cure here. It's

called free play. Kids are driven to do

it. We keep replacing it with travel

soccer. If you step back, actually that

is an enriching experience for them. I

think that if people recognize that, at

least they would sign their kids up for

free play after school just the way they

signed them up for chess.

It's reflective to me also of in

American culture, there is a real push

to not have moments of

inactivity or boredom or silence, right?

Like I go from working on my computer

to I'm actively doing something and then

while I'm waiting for the bus, I'm

looking on my phone. There there's

really like I'm never supposed to be.

It's not even ever supposed to be. It's

it is boring to be bored. Yeah. And now

there's a lot of ways to get out of that

very quickly and I do it all the time

too. But I don't think it's it's frowned

upon. I just think that the that there's

so much water that immediately seeps in.

So I got to tell you this one guy I met

here, Adam Harwitz, he studies dreams

and he said collectively our dreams are

getting less interesting. Why?

Wow.

Why? I guess because we don't have as

much boredom or free time

because when we're bored now, we

immediately go to our phones, which I do

even when I'm in the, you know, checkout

line. And so we've gotten less good at

daydreaming, so we're less good at

nightdreaming.

Wow, that is fascinating.

Isn't that wild?

That is really wild. Um

there are, you know, sometimes with with

issues like this which are are cultural,

but they're also, you know, parenting

and they're societal. There are models

of other places that do it better. And

one one that I think about is I love the

um the TV show Old Enough. I think it is

so fun.

I met a guy from Japan here yesterday

like laughing at me.

It's incredible. It's just like Japanese

kids, often very young, doing errands

outside of the house and it is so funny.

And it's also just especially watching

it as an American, you're like

and especially you got a toddler.

It's incred. Yeah. Because you you know

it it'll be like a a six-year-old will

like go harvest spring onions and then

like sell them at the market and then

come back with like a whole thing of

sushi and the mom is like, "Hooray, you

did it." Or the funniest episodes are

where they they completely fail at the

task and they like decide to go off the

rails. But

it's not because they fail in the way

that like we're scared of. Right.

Right. It's like he's like, "Actually, I

want orange juice instead." So then he

goes and buys orange juice instead of

the groceries. But that is indicative,

right? Like the fact that they can make

that show in Japan and it and it wasn't

like

well

Japan's most wanted criminals who let

the kids do this.

Right. Right. So

it does it more maybe.

Right. So people think that it's an of

course if we lived in Japan we'd all be

doing that. But there's two things going

on there. One is it's the society that

says it's fine. But two, it's a society

that recognizes that a six-year-old, and

actually those kids go down to two,

which seems a little young, um, are

competent or can be reasonably competent

enough to the point where you can film

them doing something. So, and what I

really love, there's one episode where

it's it's a girl who's like about five

and her brother who's three, and they're

going they're always going to get

something for sushi. It always makes you

hungry. And and the little boy is crying

crying his eyes out at the beginning.

And if this was American TV cut,

you know, or a mother like, "How's the

mother gonna let him go? He's crying,

honey. Why aren't you going to to soo

him?" It's like, because he's going to

be beyond soothed by going to the

butcher and then going to the rice store

and going to the vegetable place and

then going to the fish that they go to

like, you know, like a five course meal,

right? And at the end, you know, he's

really happy and proud. And that that

dip is something that we almost don't

allow. And it's really hard to allow it

in American culture because we think we

have to jump in when our kids are

disappointed or a little frustrated or

whatever. Which is why my whole message

boils down to we can't be with them all

the time. But when you're with your kid

and they're, you know, confused or hurt,

you inevitably

step in. Or even if they're

suboptimized, let me do that for you.

That's taking forever. So the only way

to not jump in is to not be there to

jump in. So that's why the message

becomes pretty basic, which is we can't

always be with our kids. You can't have

an adult always with your kids or they

will change childhood.

I grew up in New York City.

Yay.

And um

where

I grew up on the upper west side. Okay.

And when people ask me what it was like

to grow up in New York, one of the

things that I always tell them is that

the best time

was when I was old enough to do things

on my own but not old enough to drive a

car. And that for a lot of kids that's a

really boring period of time.

Right. and a horrible time for parents

because they are stuck driving the car

the whole time.

But for me, I can be like, I'm gonna go

walk to my friend John's house. We're

going to go to the movies. We're going

to go to a concert downtown. And when I

think about what informed my sense of

self, my my passions, my the kind of

music that I like, the kind of movies I

like, just like who I am. So much of it

was having that independence in a place

where there was a lot going on. And so I

share that to say like it would have

been such a different experience and so

negative if my parents had said you live

in a city it's dangerous you can't do

those things instead of saying this is

the benefit of where you live is that

you get to do those things. The first

time like my dad I know you have a very

personal relationship to letting your

kid take the subway. Yeah. But there's

like this, you know, there was a there's

a moment in our in my family history

that's like we always laugh about, which

is that the first time my parents let me

take the subway alone, my dad like

secretly followed me and like rode in

the car behind me. But that's a funny

story to me because he didn't keep doing

that. Like he just did it that one time

and then he was like, "Okay, you're

fine."

And so I think like that independence is

it let me be who I am. But I also

I realized that that must have been

pretty scary for my parents to allow

that. like it must have been

nerve-wracking and uncomfortable even

though it was so important to me.

Right? So, another thing that strikes me

as strange about our culture is that

people think like they can be parents

without worrying.

Like, are you kidding? Are you kidding?

Have you ever had even a goldfish? And

now you have a kid. Yeah.

Right. And so that's one of the reasons

that all this surveillance and tracking

and, you know, constant knowledge of our

kids is supposed to, you know, supposed

to alleviate that worry and it doesn't.

Worry is part of the deal and your worry

is sort of a small price to pay for your

kids thriving.

It's a big price to pay.

It is a big price.

I shouldn't say it's a small price to

pay. It's a big I hate worry. I hate

worry and I do worry. People think I

don't worry. The only thing I don't

worry about is the subway and strangers.

I worry. Oh my god. My kids drive it. I

can't even They don't even tell me. Like

my son drove to Canada from New York

recently and I was like he didn't let me

know and I was grateful because I didn't

know. Yeah. Right.

It's also as an adult, I feel like

another genre of social media video. Um,

and we actually have interviewed him on

the show is um, Ja Jang. He wrote a book

called Rejection Therapy. And so,

oh, the guy who went around trying to

like do things that would always get

rejected, like ordering lobster at

McDonald's.

Exactly. And what he found, I mean, he's

very focused on adults doing this for

themselves, but what he found was all

these things that he built up in his

head as like, if I go to the doughnut

store and say, "Can you make me one

giant donut instead of six normalsiz?"

Of course, they'll say no. And not only

will they say no, they'll get mad at me

and kick me out. And instead, what he

found is that like sometimes people said

no, and it wasn't a big deal. And often

people said yes and were excited. And

then he had like this great connection

and relationship. So, I do think there's

this this element of what you're working

on with parents to do to their kids that

also a lot of adults we need to do for

ourselves, which is to say like

a lot of what I'm fearful about in the

world, if I tested that against reality,

wouldn't hold up. And instead, I would

have

a more magical, exciting, and connected

life if I just trusted a little bit

more.

Trust is the key. But living in the

United States, um, social trust is not

our strongest suit, especially not in

this moment. But like I guess I'm

wondering like even for people who

aren't parents or for parents who are

not thinking about this with their own

kids.

Um,

what can we do to challenge our

assumptions?

I got an easy one.

That this world is that we shouldn't

trust people and that it is a dangerous

and vicious place out there.

So there was this other cool experiment

done with college students. Half the

group of 300 kids was told um to read

some article about like the world is a

nice place and the other half were said

okay for five days next week on day one

you have to compliment somebody whose

shoes you like day two you have to

compliment somebody whose earrings

earrings you like you know day three

something else ask somebody the time and

everybody was asked beforehand you know

are you going to you how do you feel

about oh I'm going to look like an idiot

people are going to be annoyed and of

course the people who ended up actually

interacting with their fellow humans

found the opposite and then they kept

wanting to talk to humans because

reality is really way better than

whatever is going on in our head. Which

is why all I'm trying to do is come up

with ways of forcing reality upon

parents so that they get to live in the

real world instead of this terrible

world that our culture has foisted into

our head of everything being dangerous

and our kids being in constant peril. I

feel already there's a real strong

pressure to be like your kid is a

representation of you. You're supposed

to get things from your kid. You're

supposed to get validation and you're

supposed to get social approval and

you're supposed to get all of these

things. And that I think is a really

strong force to think like it's not just

you're supposed to love them and you're

supposed to do your best for them. It's

also that if they're in the playground

and they're like

playing it's on you. Yeah. It's

embarrassed. That's why have I said this

before? That's why if you're with your

kid all the time, of course you will

intervene because honey, we use our

indoor voice or honey, we share our toys

and the kids going bam, bam, bam.

Yeah. You know what though? People will

feel really great if your kid is bad

because then they'll feel good. So your

kid will always be invited.

But I feel this even like I try and push

back on this for myself, but then I feel

this like

I'll give you a small example. Yeah. Um,

I know that the way that you learn to

use a spoon is by using a spoon.

So, if I'm alone and we're eating food,

I'll be like, "Use the spoon. Make a

mess." But then, if someone else is in

our house, I'm like, "It's going to be

embarrassing to have the mess. Maybe I

shouldn't let him eat with the spoon.

Maybe I should give him food that is not

messy so that they don't see me."

One of those things.

Yeah. So I understand that not as like

an instinct that is in the best interest

of my child as much as it is in the best

interest of the social image I have of

myself.

So try to get rid of that social image.

Good luck. Um it'd be good if you could

because everybody knows that kids are

total messes. What I wouldn't want to be

around your kid with a spoon is if

they're going to fling it,

right? So I could understand like you

know not wanting to get it on me. Yeah.

Also, nobody's paying that much

attention. It's sort of like I remember

in junior high being so acutely aware at

a bar mitzvah of no one dancing with me

and I think that nobody was paying

attention. And I'm I'm weirded out that

I still feel that way to a certain

extent like everybody's talking at Ted.

Doesn't anyone want to talk to me? I I

think that we're all creatures of

intense mortification

and self-consciousness. And if you could

just realize how little anybody cares or

is judging a toddler for not using a

spoon, well, you could ease up.

Great. I love that. Thank you so much

for being on the show. This is such a

fun.

Thank you. This was this was a wild

romp.

Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed this

episode of How to be a better human.

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Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
kid /kɪd/ A1	noun - a child
parent /ˈpɛərənt/ A1	noun - a mother or father
trust /trʌst/ B1	noun - firm belief in the reliability of someone or something verb - believe in the reliability of someone or something
independence /ˌɪndɪˈpendəns/ B2	noun - freedom from dependence on or influence by another person or thing
fear /fɪə/ A2	noun - an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous
worry /ˈwʌri/ B1	verb - to feel anxious or troubled about actual or potential problems
brave /breɪv/ A2	adjective - ready to face and endure danger or pain; showing courage
safe /seɪf/ A2	adjective - protected from or not exposed to danger or risk
danger /ˈdeɪndʒə/ A2	noun - the possibility of something unpleasant or threatening happening
experience /ɪkˈspɪəriəns/ B1	noun - knowledge or skill from doing or seeing things
competent /ˈkɒmpɪtənt/ C1	adjective - having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully
play /pleɪ/ A1	verb - engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose
believe /bɪˈliːv/ A2	verb - accept that something is true, especially without proof
help /hɛlp/ A1	verb - make it easier for someone to do something by offering them one's services or resources
independent /ˌɪndɪˈpendənt/ B2	adjective - not dependent on or not controlled by another person
control /kənˈtroʊl/ B1	noun - the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events
responsible /rɪˈspɒnsəbl/ B1	adjective - having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone
change /tʃeɪndʒ/ A2	verb - make or become different