– Bilingual Lyrics Chinese/English

Lyrics & Translation

[English]

Hello everyone, welcome to the Don’t Understand Podcast. My name is Yuan Li, the host.

Before today’s program starts, I want to tell you something.

On September 6th, we will hold the second Don’t Understand Festival in Washington, the capital of the United States.

We couldn’t hold the event in Beijing, so we held it in Washington first.

This year’s guests include Professor Cai Xia, Professor Lin Perry, writer Zha Jianying, and US-China relations expert Dai Bo

Documentary director Wang Nanhui will be here to screen his film "Hooligan Yan" which reflects the 2013 civil struggle

Welcome everyone to come to Washington to celebrate the holidays with us. Let's talk about China, the era we live in, and the things we don't understand

Offline tickets are now open for purchase. You can find the registration link in the comment area or shownotes of this episode

or on the social media account of the Don't Know Podcast. We look forward to meeting you in Washington

The following is the program for this episode

Today we are going to talk about a heavy topic: the recent suicides of entrepreneurs

On April 16 this year, Bi Guangjun, the founder of Jindianzi Textile Company, passed away at home

June 2, Liu Wenchao, chairman of Hangzhou Xizi Elevator, fell to his death

July 17, Zeng Yuzhou, the founder of Guangdong Liang Home Furnishings, suspected of falling from the building

July 27 Wang Linpeng, the chairman of Beijing Juran Home, fell from a building

In just over three months, many entrepreneurs died unnaturally one after another, causing shock in public opinion

And this was only a suicide incident that was spread on the Internet

Equally disturbing news is that from January to July this year, at least 19 actual controllers of listed companies

Chairman or senior executives were investigated by the inspection agency

with detention measures Among them is Wang Linpeng, the chairman of Easyhome who just passed away

He was detained three times and died suddenly after falling from a building just four days after the last lien was lifted

Looking back on the past five years, from the Ren Zhiqiang case and the Sun Dawu case to the so-called crackdown on gangs and organized crime

to the offshore fishing targeting entrepreneurs to today's entrepreneurs going bankrupt, being in debt, being detained, going to jail, committing suicide

The once glorious group of entrepreneurs It’s not an exaggeration to describe it as a tragedy

In this issue, we invite lawyer Wu Lei to talk about what the entrepreneurial community has experienced in these years

Lawyer Wu Lei is a well-known criminal defense lawyer in China and has defended many cases of entrepreneurs

In 2019, he was retaliated by the government and his lawyer license was revoked, but he has been providing advice behind the scenes for private entrepreneurs to safeguard their rights

Hello Wu Lei, the public knows that you are a human rights lawyer It is to defend dissidents like Guo Feixiong.

As a lawyer, have you accepted many cases defending the rights of entrepreneurs?

Just before your lawyer license was revoked in 2019, how many of the cases you represented were related to private entrepreneurs

From our professional experience, more than 60% of our time and energy is to provide various legal services to Chinese private entrepreneurs

Including defending them after they are arrested. Including redressing their injustice after they have been wronged

Because it is very simple. Chinese entrepreneurs have the ability to pay. Of course we will also handle some cases of poor people and some cases of political prisoners

Yes, basically you use the income from handling cases for companies and entrepreneurs to fill those cases that do not make money, right

Yes. In our own words, this is called killing the rich and giving to the poor, because making money from entrepreneurs helps the poor

Even sometimes I find a theoretical justification for myself. When these private entrepreneurs were prosperous

they didn't feel the importance of China's legal environment to them, so they had to pay for their own knowledge

which was also a contribution to the rule of law to the public. He paid legal fees

and then there were lawyers helping the poor, which seemed to be a balanced workload

Yeah, that's right. What was your reaction after seeing the recent series of entrepreneurs committing suicide and being detained

Were you surprised?

Of course I'm not surprised. According to my professional experience, this has been happening every day in China in recent decades.

Everyday. Some people have been beaten to death. Some have been unjust for decades. Some have even been executed.

I'm just saying that the public is particularly surprised on this issue. On the contrary, I am particularly surprised.

Can you explain to everyone what the detention process is? Under what circumstances are people usually detained and taken away?

Have you ever handled this kind of case of entrepreneurs who were detained?

Have they ever told you what they went through?

Of course we have handled similar cases. The detention was originally a disciplinary provision of the Communist Party of China. It becomes a formal criminal coercive measure

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Called a lien. This is made by the local prosecutorial committee.

In fact, our law is one thing. Yuan Li, you also know that in China, the reality is another matter. Even the treatment of political prisoners

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in this respect is consistent in my opinion.

They were all subjected to cruelty. We call it execution, such as starvation.

Deprived of sleep, beaten, unable to brush teeth, unable to see the sun, etc.

Most people cannot imagine how much torture a person will suffer after being detained.

Can you tell everyone, is detention a legal process?

If you call it a legal process, I think it is an insult to the word law.

We can definitely call it a kidnapping process. Why

Because since the beginning of world civilization, the so-called legal process has included a very important process, the participation of lawyers

That is, whether you are the Communist Party or the Kuomintang, if you arrest this person, you must let the lawyer meet

Then the lawyer will visit him to understand his legal issues

From the beginning of your criminal proceedings, our defendant client should be given the right to defend

And the participation of lawyers in his defense is one of the most important means of legitimate defense

Because the client was arrested, he had no way to exercise his right to self-defense

But with the lien, all lawyers cannot see their clients

Is there a time limit for the lien, that is, the longest it can be?

In theory, there is a time limit according to the law, but in fact there is no time limit at all

When the three months expired, he completely changed the legal provisions and was sent to the detention center again

Then after the expiration of the detention center I'm detaining you again

This is completely illegal, but there are no restrictions

In fact, few people dare to resist

So what kind of place are they usually kept in?

You can imagine that many detention centers have been built in the past ten years

These detention centers could be called black prisons in the past few years

But now they are legal prisons

It is not as good as a detention center according to the provisions of the law

Detention is inherently a lighter detention measure than detention and arrest in a detention center

We can roughly describe it as a three to five square meter hotel room

but there may be no bed and is surrounded by sponge mats

To prevent suicide, iron doors and iron windows

There are only very simple running water and squat toilets

Then there is a wooden board placed there and you cannot see the sunlight

Inside it is a standard black jail

Can you tell us what are the commonalities among the cases of private entrepreneurs that you have come into contact with?

Is it usually the local government that leads the investigation, or is it related to the central government?

It seems that everyone has the impression that this lien is to cooperate with the investigation

Is it generally related to official corruption cases?

Can you tell us what the case is like?

Yuan Li, your question is a question from heaven

People often ask why this case happened and who was offended.

Let’s focus on the case of Wang Linpeng.

He stayed in detention for a few months and then jumped off a building to commit suicide at home.

We call it the Hubei phenomenon. I'm telling the truth

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They talked about the Discipline Inspection Commission changing their color

Just like we heard in the novel that

the bandit Hu Hansan came to kill again

And everyone passed the test. What does it mean to pass the test

You have to explain how much bribes you and a certain deputy governor

or a certain deputy secretary did you pay to him

Even sometimes

This deputy governor will soon be promoted to governor of another province

Including the then deputy governor of Hubei Province

The deputy governor named Li later became the governor of Liaoning Province

When he was the deputy governor

the Hubei Provincial Commission for Discipline Inspection was arresting him

When he was the secretary of the municipal party committee in Xiangyang

Those large entrepreneurs

Everyone passed the test

How much money did you give to Governor Li

You must admit how much money you gave

If you don't admit it, you can't go home

This is their political struggle

Is it a power struggle

But what I emphasize is

Political struggle is just one reason for similar cases

There are many other situations

Like us in Luliang area of Shanxi Province

The new public security director has come up

According to the usual practice

everyone will give away millions

This money will be given according to the size of your assets

Everyone may give away 2 million to 3 million

But only one entrepreneur gave away 500,000

gave 500,000

He thinks I have a good relationship with you

It turns out that when you were the district police chief

I had a good relationship too

Then I will give you 500,000 now

Then the police chief said

You look down on me

You are a gangster

Various reasons

So you have no way to study it in China

Why was this entrepreneur banned

Why was he detained

Why was he wronged

This is what a public security director is like

Especially in Shaanxi

where these mine bosses gather

The year I stopped practicing

I'm in Shaanxi

You listen to the law in their eyes

What law is that

The law in their eyes is

That's a bandit

I need to spend money

If they catch them, they will consider themselves unlucky

I need to send money

I need to spend money

Then what do you think there are many people

There is one in China

It is the so-called original sin of entrepreneurs

Really

It means that when you get rich, you get ill-gotten gains

Also,

Many people say

Entrepreneurs and businessmen get rich

Their success depends on bribing officials

They are not worthy of sympathy when they are punished

What do you think of this kind of statement

I am very grateful to Yuan Li

You can raise such a question

It's because as lawyers

we have been struggling with this problem for a long time

Of course

everyone hates officials and the rich, I completely understand everyone's social psychology

Because everyone's life is miserable

The rich and officials

They must be bad people

This is from the perspective of social psychology

I completely understand

But from a legal perspective

Is it right?

I think it is completely wrong

I have contacted a large number of Chinese private entrepreneurs

Then you know that China's private entrepreneurs

According to Wu Si's theory

are also stratified

The market is stratified

Some are combined with government power decryption

Like minerals

But let me tell you

The clothing industry like Goldlion

The mineral water industry like Nongfu Spring

The clothing industry like Anta

It has nothing to do with power

It really has nothing to do

Power can neither help it develop the market

nor win any resources

So I have contacted a lot of entrepreneurs

I understand their experiences

Like Sun Dawu

Like Zhang Dewu of Xiangda Group

They were very poor since they were young

Living in a difficult environment

They started by selling chickens

Selling piglets

Then riding bicycles

Driving a motorcycle

Living frugally

It is very, very difficult to start a business

Later I saw Yang Xiaokai's book

Called the Record of Cows, Ghosts and Snake Gods

He described a blind capitalist in the book

He made a sigh and said

These private capitalists

Small entrepreneurs

They legitimately pursue wealth

Get rich

Feed yourself

The simplest pursuit of property

Is there anything wrong with that?

So speaking from my own experience

I dare not say everything

I have one piece of evidence to say

There are many entrepreneurs in China

He is clean

They have used their intelligence

Diligence

Talent

to create their own wealth

Of course, from another perspective

Do you think they may have accepted bribes

Is this related to the original crime of bribery?

For example

I run a restaurant

I run a hotel

Don’t give me a license

Can I spend 2,000 yuan to give you a gift

It’s possible

But will giving gifts definitely make me rich

Really not necessarily

I believe friends will understand my point of view

Firefighting is always difficult to deal with.

If you don't give him money, you just can't get along

That's right

You are forced to give money

I just talked to an entrepreneur in the past two days

He said who is willing to give the money in his pocket to others for no reason

And there are many entrepreneurs in China today

Many entrepreneurs are also knowledgeable and educated

He also pursues such a very noble personality

He thinks giving gifts is despicable and shameless

Yes

So he can't accept giving gifts himself

But to be honest, Yuan Li

If you are the boss

Can you completely avoid this issue

You don't give gifts

Maybe

But your subcontracting company uses 500,000 from the profit to give gifts

After doing this

You may not even know it

Everyone knows that you, the boss, are very upright

But in order to complete my task

I went to give gifts secretly

You may not know it at all

This is Chinese logic

When you are in 2023

You have been doing a live broadcast series on Weibo

called Paying Attention to Unjust Cases of Private Entrepreneurs

And the title of this live broadcast is directly called Discussing the Lifebuoy Plan for Private Entrepreneurs

It sounds like the living conditions of this entrepreneurial group are already very serious

Can you tell me when it started?

The living conditions of entrepreneurs have deteriorated greatly from the beginning

I think it may have been since the 1990s

When our economy was making great strides forward

The entire national economy has undergone earth-shaking changes

The concept of private entrepreneurs was established

This problem is even more serious

It was not the case before

But the previous market scale was very small

It was not a national market

It is not an Internet market

Especially after the advent of the Internet era after 2000

One of my customers can earn tens of millions of RMB a day at most

That is to say, the Internet society has changed our entire enterprise production form

The income pattern has undergone earth-shaking changes

So the best entrepreneur

His profitability is completely beyond our imagination

So I feel that there may be private entrepreneurs after the 1990s

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Because I used to be a township entrepreneur

After there were private entrepreneurs in the 1990s

The arrests of these unjust cases related to private entrepreneurs began

Because there are always various reasons

You have offended the county party secretary

Your internal competition

Your shareholders fight with each other

What officials participate in shares

Then in 2000, it entered a

The Communist Party believes that I don’t need entrepreneurs anymore

Because I am strong enough

Our country’s economy is enough to grow

You have greatly challenged and questioned my regime

Like Wu Xiaohui

You are already very rich

You also often complain

You often say some unpleasant things

Sun Dawu, I will also arrest you

Right

2018-19

According to my observation

Actual observation

Many local finances have been ruined

Inner Mongolia, the three eastern provinces

Then distant ocean fishing happened in various places

After the epidemic

Large-scale is because of economic reasons

Just because of economic reasons

The number has also increased

I still think that as the economy becomes more active

our overall number is increasing

About similar arrests of entrepreneurs

You just mentioned Hubei

I just happened to be preparing

I saw an article published by Hubei Daily in 2021

The title is Hubei deploys normalized anti-gang and evil struggle

Severely crack down on illegal crimes against enterprises and entrepreneurs

I don't understand

It means the so-called crackdown on gangs and evil

Why should it be combined with severe crackdowns on companies and entrepreneurs

In China

Our most backward department

The most backward department is the political and legal department

Our political and legal department is still stuck in the 1950s and 1960s

Because the political and legal department is the real responsibility assigned to it by our party

Everyone knows that it is a political organ

It is a knife handle

What is a knife handle

What kind of justice do you care about

Don’t talk about justice. Just cut whoever I ask you to cut.

But in Hubei, this campaign to crack down on gangs and eliminate evil

With Zhang Dewu, the Xiangda Group we established has reached a climax

What is this climax?

Zhang Dewu’s daughter

Of course with our support

She issued a very important statement

We don’t want our company anymore

Let’s dedicate it to the country

It even caused a stir in the Office of Rural Affairs of the CPC Central Committee

What Secretariat of the CPC Central Committee

National United Front Department

The National Political and Legal Federation went to investigate

The Hubei Political and Legal Committee finally couldn’t hold on any longer

Then they held multiple meetings in a row

High Court

Public Security Department

Hubei Political and Legal Affairs Commission

Hubei Discipline Inspection Commission

Protect private entrepreneurs

Protect rights

But cracking down on gangs and eradicating evil is also the deployment of the central government

It is President Xi’s No. 1 deployment

So here comes such a weirdo

We must crack down on gangs and eliminate evil

But you know the many entrepreneurs we met in Hubei at that stage

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Then they were passed through a sieve

Some entrepreneurs cried when they saw us

Describing the torture they suffered inside

Torture for people

Those entrepreneurs worth billions or tens of billions

In front of you

Howling and crying

Inside

Because of the Zhang Dewu case

they were miraculously released

Then they said

I don’t know why we released it

But many people were sentenced in front of me

What does the sentence mean

In China

You are bankrupt

The family is ruined

Your wife and children are all in

All the relatives in your family have gone in

So those people

They said they had gone away from death

You are very familiar with the Sun Dawu case, right

Tell everyone a little bit about the Sun Dawu case

Why after this case came out

I think private entrepreneurs

In fact, everyone should have completely felt that

this system has no protection for them at all

Do you think I am right in saying this

Of course

But I think if we only see Sun Dawu, Ren Zhiqiang and Wu Xiaohui

Everyone knows that these three cases

have a common characteristic

What characteristics

They were all sentenced to 18 years

Later we repeatedly analyzed

why this case was sentenced to 18 years together

Later I thought

If a person has passed 50 to 60

18 years

then basically let you die in prison

Because it seems embarrassing to sentence you to death

Say we are Wei Guangzheng

I cannot sentence you to death

But I don’t want you to come out alive

Here we just want to talk about the Sun Dawu case

I can say it quickly and simply

Sun Dawu is a farmer who started from scratch

He is a farmer

And he is a farmer with a simple sense of justice

His own business has assets of 5 billion to 10 billion

And he sympathizes with China's liberals

But he did not oppose the Chinese Communist Party.

His relationship with the local government was generally good.

Before the incident,

he promoted similar agricultural cooperatization. Assets of about 4 billion yuan

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High-quality assets of gold and silver

His hospital has assets of about 1.1 to 2 billion yuan

His hot spring project and real estate sector are also very good

He does not have any high liabilities

His biggest liabilities are those farmers

Putting his corn and wheat there to increase interest

This is why he was later accused of committing a crime

Real crime

I think Sun Dawu did not express my loyalty and obedience to you

And he often expresses his opinions on some things according to his own wishes

In fact, these statements now seem to have no problem

But at the juncture from 2018 to 2021

We Wei Guangzheng will solve a group of entrepreneurs

The group of entrepreneurs they solve is that you must have strength

You have influence

You even seem to them to have a certain degree of organization

As I often say, when will our party kill you

It is the three natures

Your influence

Your organization

Your ability to act

If they think you have strength and influence

They will take action

Not what you have done

In fact, although Sun Dawu had some conflicts with the local government

We also advised him at that time

Because of the problems of the land and the state-owned farm, etc.

But it would not be such a big problem

At that juncture, private entrepreneurs across the country must be dealt with

Any private entrepreneurs who disagreed must be killed quickly

To be pinched

So we killed Sun Dawu

A total of 24 people were arrested with him, including his family and senior management team

That's right

Yes, yes

And the government basically took over after that

It seemed like it only spent 100 million or several hundred million

Just give a company as big as him

Saying a takeover is a takeover

It sounds better at all

Just rob it, right

Just rob it

Really just robbed

Special police and armed police went to rob

I went every day

I went there about dozens of times

About dozens of times

They reported every time

Lawyers came

But luckily they didn’t dare to do anything to us

He may have felt that we were not afraid of being caught

Do you think it was after this incident came out?

What was your reaction in this entrepreneur circle

Do you still remember

I think we started to tell the prophetic story at that time

A hundred birds on the tree killed one bird

How many birds are there in the tree

Starting from the Sun Dawu case

China's private entrepreneurs took big steps and began to run away

Before, they were still running quietly

After the Sun Dawu case

I think Chinese entrepreneurs with more than one billion assets

Everyone is very panic

Ren Zhiqiang represents the entrepreneurs who have the closest relationship with the system

Wu Xiaohui represents private capitalists with international vision

Sun Dawu represents grassroots entrepreneurs

These three categories

The three people have the most in common

I don’t object to you that much

But there is no action in essence

I just made some remarks

I did not surrender to you

I did not follow you closely

I didn’t go to the CPPCC to eat and drink with you

To praise you

Then I encountered this problem

After that, the Chinese entrepreneurs I got to know

were not just the Chinese entrepreneurs I got to know

Our entire team of lawyers

The best entrepreneurs in China we got to know

Everyone shouted

I want to increase investment

Respond to the call of the General Secretary

I want to make a three-year plan

Five-Year Plan

But everyone is selling their business privately

Run

You two months ago

You said on Twitter at Wife and child separated

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I have seen too many cases like this

I want to ask why you said that

Of course I have been reading Yang Xiaokai’s books recently

I have been reading these books by Yang Xiaokai repeatedly

Including some economics books

I also completely understand Chinese entrepreneurs

Because we are Chinese

We were too poor when we were young

We were poor when we were children

Even eating a steamed bun feels like a luxury

One of my clients has been in the detention center for five years now

A very good entrepreneur

He said that it took me thirty years

I realized a dream

What kind of dream

I eat bread when I want to eat bread

I eat beef when I want to eat beef

But when I realized this dream

I entered the detention center

Then we have a private entrepreneur from Luliang, Shanxi

He is an entrepreneur with billions of assets

But after the incident, Yuan Li

He was in the detention center

You know what he wanted from me

He was beaten by the detention center

His ribs were broken

The corners of his eyes were broken

He said, Lawyer Li, can you give me

Oops, I'm afraid I'll collapse again

I often think about these questions and I collapse

What does such a billionaire entrepreneur want from me

Lawyer Li, please get me some pickles to eat

A billionaire private entrepreneur

He doesn't have pickles to eat

Because they deliberately don't put salt in them

Then you also know that his daughter is studying in the UK

His family turns out to be such a beautiful family

I said that people with wealth must not think that they are bad people

He has done a lot for the boss's surname

He vowed to build a villa for everyone in my village

He really built it

Everyone builds a villa

But when it comes to handing over the work,

arrest him

His daughter is studying in the UK

Crazy

His teacher studying in the UK asked her

What's wrong with you

She said I have no money to pay tuition

Then she was in a trance

Then the teacher asked him again

She burst into tears

Everyone in his family was arrested

She had no one to pay the tuition for her

An eighteen or nineteen-year-old girl

I hold up a sign in front of the Chinese Embassy in the UK every day

Save my dad, save my mom

Everyone really doesn’t know these entrepreneurs

I don’t think they are at fault Yuan Li

What they want is to serve the country through industry

What they want to achieve is themselves

It’s the kind of simple and ignorant sense of serving the country

But they don’t know the iron fist given to them.

So you just mentioned the lifebuoy plan

This has been a dream of ours for many years

That is when the entrepreneur is safe

He will set up a fund

Then when problems arise, we will be able to save him

But it has never been established

Because Chinese entrepreneurs

He never believes in these problems when he is good

He does not understand Chinese society

He thinks that the Secretary of the Provincial Party Committee and the Secretary of the Municipal Party Committee

We are all buddies and we all support each other

What problem can I have

And once there is a problem

Ten billion entrepreneurs can't spend a penny to save him

Everyone has seen that we charge money for some cases

It is possible that we have no money for entrepreneurs' cases

I also saw you in an article on this WeChat public account

It's about those conceited entrepreneurs, right?

You said they make me very sorry

Because in the process of entrepreneurship

they generally ignored

an extremely important issue in the environment with Chinese characteristics

Entrepreneurial risk

This caused them to pay a heavy price

There is a saying

Entrepreneurs are either in prison

or on the road to prison

My past career as a lawyer convinced me

This is not a joke

If you can say it, just follow up on what you just said

It is the so-called lifebuoy plan, right?

You need to have a sum of funds nearby

If something happens

you can use it, right

But they may also say

Just like you just said

Me and the Provincial Party Committee Secretary and Municipal Party Committee Secretary

We are all buddies

How can it be better

Also, people will say

In a country like China where the rule of law is not perfect

Political will is greater than the legal effect.

Such a society

Such a country

As for entrepreneurs

What kind of risk regulation can he have

Especially now this kind of offshore fishing

This kind of retention is so popular

What kind of risks can entrepreneurs prevent

They must think that if something goes wrong

I have nothing to do

From a professional point of view

Prevention is better than no prevention

We are not saying that prevention must be effective

For example, when we drive

We have to wear a seat belt

and have an airbag

It must be better than nothing

Entrepreneurs should have awareness

He should have a sense of responsibility

In other words, he should realize that

this company, this country and society are dangerous

But what really makes me sad is

Do you know which entrepreneurs

It's not old entrepreneurs like Dawu

Nor old entrepreneurs like Zhang Dewu

These old entrepreneurs

Sometimes I can catch them if they want

We live in such an era

What really makes me sad is the 30-year-old

The 25-year-olds who have graduated from the best universities five years ago

Those best and very talented entrepreneurs

they even got doctorates in the United States

Soon after the first and second rounds of entrepreneurship were completed

they returned to China

But today they are in detention centers in China

Just like my hometown in Shandong for example

Now catch these entrepreneurs

Catch Internet entrepreneurs across the country

Already crazy

Really crazy

Because every entrepreneur

will bring billions

Billions of contributions to the local government

Because everyone is like catching a pig

The police chief is also happy, the criminal police captain is also happy

Of course the municipal party secretary is happy

Because my city

This county only has more than 100 million in fiscal revenue every year

You caught a big wild boar for me, and you caught billions

My finances are basically ten years

I don’t have to worry

We caught a 40 billion person in Yancheng, Jiangsu Province

What is the concept of 40 billion

There is no local fiscal revenue in Yancheng

40 billion ah

A very young client of mine

is from Fujian

His name is Lin Feng

He is from Fuqing County

He cried and said during the final verdict in court

He is not guilty

He was sentenced to 25 years

Fight against gangs and eliminate evil

He said

When you, the Communist Party, use me

You call me an entrepreneur

When you don’t use me

You just call me a gangster

Our five entrepreneurs from Shandong University

When they were sentenced for pyramid schemes in Dezhou, Shandong Province

How smart they are

What diligent entrepreneurs

The so-called first defendant

When the verdict was announced

He said

How sad I am

It doesn’t matter if you sentence me

You wronged me

Why did you treat my classmates

Sentence all my colleagues

We did not cause a penny of harm to society

That case

The Public Security Bureau filed the case

It was actually filed two years ago

Because two years ago

he only had a few hundred million in his account

He waited until the account

reached one billion

before closing the case

This kind of case

I can talk about it all day and all night

They are all real names

My colleagues all know which case it is

To be honest

I really don’t dare

I said it too clearly

I am a little worried

Our Communist Party is going to retaliate against him again

Because these people are in prison

Do you think this detention is now

It's offshore fishing

We know

It's purely for money

Right

But this kind of retention

There are others

Some like this

Cases against entrepreneurs

Is it economic factors that are greater

Or political will is greater

What I want to emphasize is

In China, politics and economy are completely inseparable.

For example,

I will give you a detailed example.

Everyone knows how far

it has developed today.

What do we think justice is like?

For example, the political struggle between two factions

This person wants to mention the minister of the central ministry

or the provincial governor

A real case

Then the other faction

who came down from the central government

is to kill this potential

ministerial or provincial level person

So how to kill him

It is necessary to arrest those entrepreneurs who once served as officials

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But those entrepreneurs also know that

this leader is relatively clean because he has great ambitions

He wants to be the central leader

He looks down on us little money at all

He comes to inspect us

Help us and support us

Just as a political achievement

But the Commission for Discipline Inspection intervened

Arrest you

At first, he asked questions

Finally, I will tell you

I must admit

I gave 10 million or 20 million to the deputy governor who has not yet been involved in the case.

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I gave him a bribe of 10 million and 20 million

From the perspective of defense

we have to find out

Where did the 10 million come from

Which bank did it withdraw from

Where was it placed

This is the first point

The second

was how the money was sent

Was it in a sack

Or was it a big baggage

Or use a garbage bag

to send it over

What tools did you use

Are you from Hubei to Beijing

or from Beijing to Hubei

or Shandong

Why do we ask this question

Because if you are accurate on which day

we will know whether your story is true or false through your mobile phone

call record

...

Because you may be in Taiwan at that time

In Hong Kong

In the United States

You can't come to pay bribes that day

Many entrepreneurs make up this way

He knows that day

August 4, 2017

I was in the United States at that time

I deliberately made up such a time

I went to pay bribes

At the Beijing Hotel

Then what kind of transportation did you use

Did you take the high-speed train

Or did you ask someone to go with you

Many people compiled it in detail

You arrived in the office

Because you know the office

After 2015

There are a lot of cameras

Are you in the office

Or in a hotel

Luxury hotels even have cameras

Almost all reception places in China

have cameras

They made it up

Finally, the Provincial Commission for Discipline Inspection went there

You finally admitted 10 million

We have an entrepreneur who was hung on a beam

You admitted

This entrepreneur is from Jiangxi

How much money did you give to the deputy mayor of Jiangxi

...

He has no money

Because they are good friends

He said I gave him 50,000 yuan

50,000 won't work

Beat

Finally, he said 500,000

Still beating

It's really like a slag hole

Use that kind of whip

Beat with a belt

Say 5 million

Still beat

Finally, let’s say 25 million to 40 million

Finally, the prosecutor general came down and said

Forget it, stop fighting

He doesn’t have that much money at all

20 million

20 million is not available

But you know

What about the Provincial Commission for Discipline Inspection

No money

No evidence can be found

It doesn't matter

Have you ever had a meal together?

And this deputy mayor

The other side said yes

We have had dinner two or three times

Come to my company to inspect

Or we can go to the United States together

or go to Japan to attract investment

Okay

While you are eating

Have been to the toilet

A block away from the toilet

Have you had coffee?

Oh

Did you go too

OK

Did you tell the deputy mayor

I will give you 10% of my company's shares

...

I never said that

Never said that

Arrest your daughter

Did you say

10%

Arrest your wife if you don’t tell her

Doesn’t your wife have cancer?

Is the cancer terminal?

Or isn’t your son in high school? I will immediately drive a police car

to your son’s high school

and arrest your son directly

Your son will be mentally ill from now on

Entrepreneurs are scared to death

Make a note

I said that I came with this leader

in a certain coffee shop

or when I was going to the toilet

I said Governor, please take good care of me

I left you 10% of the equity

The Governor said okay, you can give it to me after I retire

Then there was a double rule over the Governor

Then they also used the same method

to that Governor

No one can withstand suppression

No matter how you hit me

it may be okay

But you said arrest the father and the children

Arrest the father and wife

Then when his wife

was still hospitalized in Beijing Hospital

was suffering from cancer

Take him directly from the hospital

Also torture and extract confessions

Hang on the wall

They collapsed

Admit OK

20 million established

Take back 20 million

Then find 10

You are two hundred million

Then suspended death or death penalty

This has become a

common pattern

This is the latest common pattern in the past 10 years

...

From Cangzhou, Hebei

To Luliang, Shanxi

To Hubei

So who listens to the Communist Party's

judgments and accusations

Hey

I can't say

Because everyone hates officials and rich people

Of course I'm not saying

They must all be clean

I can only speak based on this case file

That's what you said before

The provincial governor is going to be promoted

and then someone will come to mess with him

This is a power struggle issue

A power struggle issue

But he wants to use this economic crime

Bribery and acceptance

The amount of money

Only then can he make this case solid

So the entrepreneur is involved

Right

Yes

But your cases like Cai Dabiao

The cases I personally handled

were all infighting among shareholders

One shareholder

directly bribed the director of the Public Security Bureau

We went to meet Cai Dabiao

There was no way to meet

But if another lawyer went to meet

and reported to the Public Security Bureau

We went to see Cai Dabiao

Then let Cai Da tag the contract

to transfer the equity

and you can meet him immediately

The Public Security Bureau made no secret

The boss is the director of the Guangdong Public Security Department

Later that person was also arrested

So it was entirely because

shareholders were arrested internally

There were also arrests between upstream and downstream

There are also various

Then let me ask you again

Some entrepreneurs will say

I am in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou

The legal environment in these places

is better

Can I not worry so much

Can I feel more at ease

To be honest, I have recently

also been doing such a program

Because I saw

There is a map saying

Don’t go through Shanhaiguan when investing

This sentence is outdated

Invest in Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Shanghai

Including Guangdong

Don’t cross the Yangtze River

If I tell the truth

Tell the truth

The judicial system in these places

It is backward, corrupt, cruel

Far more than Northeast China and Inner Mongolia

Really?

I always thought that Northeast

especially Inner Mongolia in recent years

ocean fishing is very powerful

We can definitely talk about

Northeast and Inner Mongolia places

Including us Shandong people who have never seen money

He would be extremely happy if he made tens of millions

No imagination

But in Fujian, Guangzhou, Guangdong

tens of billions Hundreds of billions

will swallow you up in an instant

In Xiamen

Let's do a case

There is an Olympic Center in Xiamen

It was originally a cultural public building

But it can be successfully turned into a private commercial real estate

Behind it is the Tianzihao that can reach the sky

Then in every city

the most powerful

He is the deputy director of the Public Security Bureau

Deputy Secretary of the Discipline Inspection Commission

Vice President of the Court

Deputy Procurator General of the Procuratorate

These old bureaucrats

Guangzhou, Xiamen and Fuzhou are all like this

Hunting those private entrepreneurs like poisonous snakes

The Xiamen we are doing

That case is called Jiang Shidong

Olympic case

Completely tortured that person to extract an unjust confession

What's the use of rehabilitating him in the end

That person was pissed to death

More than one billion assets were robbed

For example, Wuxi, Jiangsu

Wuxi, Jiangsu is the most typical representative of the entire economically developed region

The persecution of private entrepreneurs

80% of the people in the detention center are from other places.

What is this concept?

They are fishing in the ocean

Don't think that

Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Fujian and Shanghai are good

The public security organs and law enforcement agencies are more backward and brutal

But these words

Of course I am not a sociologist

I am not a statistician

I am a lawyer's feelings

I have many real cases

I think if anyone doesn't believe it

Open a show

I can talk about ten days and ten nights

I will not repeat every case

I told him everything

This real name is real

I have disclosed it online

When our lawyers heard about Zhejiang, their heads got big

Zhejiang’s torture to extract confessions

They beat people to death

An entrepreneur friend of mine

I think about it now

I was very sad

Shaoxing, Zhejiang

You know Shaoxing's economy is very developed

Suddenly one day this entrepreneur

and his entire family was ganged up

There was only one person left in the family looking for me

Lawyer Li, please save me

I immediately entrusted a group of lawyers to go

At that time he could only get 300,000 yuan

I seem to have found ten or twenty lawyers to help him

Because I think that family is very pitiful

It seems that their family said

Everyone except him was arrested

It seems that there is a chronic illness in the family

Then the lawyer went

The local police chief threatened him

Shaoxing Public Security Bureau

Remember the seven-story building

The Shaoxing public security director said

You fired all the lawyers

We will give you a light sentence

Let your family go

Then he did not discuss it with me

He fired the lawyers

The lawyer came back

Then the next day

the police chief arrested his whole family again

The rest of the people were arrested again

Some distant relatives

That man couldn't think anymore

He was very sad

He thought he was cheated

The family had no money

Guess what

He climbed to the seventh floor of the Shaoxing Public Security Bureau and jumped off the building to commit suicide

Oh my God

I spent many days and I knew I was so sad

Because I was only on the phone

I dealt with him

I hate it so much

I hate it very much

After the lawyers quit

they told me again

I said you are not afraid of death

Why don't you contact me again

We are trying to find a way

As long as you are alive, we can kill you again

But he can't think about it

He feels sorry for his family

It's not easy to collect 300,000

This case happened around 2020

I'm sad, I feel very sorry for this person

I actually didn't take a penny from him Yuan Li

I can't imagine this person is

How regretful and sad he is

But the responsibility does not belong to him

His family was arrested

But after the lawyer was fired

More distant relatives and friends were arrested Company colleague

He can't think about it

This person has a name and a surname

You can go find him

A person with a name and a surname

Right

When I think of this kind of thing

I almost collapse

So when I am often interviewed

I collapse immediately

Sorry, I have to ask you the most difficult question

How will you talk to the families of these entrepreneurs

That is, your clients

and their families

Because or these parties

Because they are easily intimidated by the government

This kind of public prosecutor

or deceived

will often change the lawyer

in the middle

into a government lawyer

Or just fire this lawyer

I miss this kind of thing for you

You must have experienced a lot

These clients and their families

What kind of advice would you give

My method may be I often provide training for domestic lawyers

Counseling with family members and counseling with clients

I have a concept. Sometimes our young lawyers ask me

Lawyer Li has more than 300 volumes of files and I can’t remember them

I said you treat the client as your biological father

You try

You treat him as your own relative

We also fully understand

He is under high pressure

He may betray the lawyer at any time

He may fire the lawyer

He may surrender

This is all his choice

We also fully understand him

But as lawyers

we hope to find those

who are completely consistent with our ideas

who have completely consistent cognitions with us

We also need to see

how the Internet society has developed to what it is today in the past twenty years

...

There are a large number of entrepreneurial clients

He is already almost the same as us in terms of social cognition

...

That is, his relatives have just been arrested and detained in the detention center

Just been detained

He found me immediately

Then it was New Year's Eve

I set out immediately

Many people said

A person was detained in Shuanggui

What should you do

I said I had my own way

I couldn't go from Beijing

I arranged for someone to send him a fax

to the local municipal party committee and government discipline inspection commission

and to every police station of the public security bureau

saying that a certain entrepreneur was my client

You can't hit him, you can't scold him, you can't starve him

If you dare to hit him

Sooner or later, I will poke CCTV for you

Focus Interview

Of course I am scaring him

Focus Interview will never care about us

They saw a desperate Wu Lei

Faxes were flying all over the sky

Weibo posts were flying all over the sky

He would never dare to hit him

He would just not let him touch him

This is good

If you are not beaten, you will not tell lies

If you are not hungry, you will not dare to do anything

Of course it is not absolute

There are many cases that we have not solved

But the client should realize that

he has no better way

This is your choice

I often tell the client

Do you feel that you have a good way before coming to me

He said no

I said do you think there is a better solution than me

He said no

I said do you think it is still possible to reconcile with the official

Said no

I said do you think it is a dead end

He said yes

I said let’s be a dead horse and be a living horse doctor OK

That’s how we move forward

What’s important to us is

We have a 60% success rate

It’s not that it’s completely cleared

but

Oh, to be honest

Under our party’s system

Originally, the underworld was about to suffer

Cases like Zhang Dewu

have been prosecuted to the underworld

Prosecuted to the court

Finally returned

The prosecution was withdrawn

Then it will last three to five years Five or six years

This is already a great victory

This means we have won

The property has been retained

Let me ask again

For example, in 2021

When the Sun Dawu case occurred

A lawyer involved in the case told me

In those years, due to the suppression of the entrepreneurial class

criminal defense lawyers were too busy

Can you tell me

Is the current situation still like this

Is there any change

Do entrepreneurs and their families still want to litigate

The first judgment is that brave criminal defense lawyers are still the busiest

Because China has a large population and a lot of economic activities

Then the disputes at that time may have come from the official

or from equity setting

Investment returns and other various disputes

Unfair justice

leads to brave and conscientious lawyers

His market is getting bigger and bigger

Because everyone realizes that

I may not be able to blackmail

This is the first aspect

The second aspect

Our client

I feel that in the past two years

may have become less and less courageous

Because social control

is very, very serious

To what extent has it been controlled?

Controlled to the point where you just post a Weibo

The police will knock on your door and call you

The same is true for lawyers

So overall

our judicial path

has been blocked

Now we are not discussing whether the judiciary is good or not

but whether the judiciary is good or not

But no matter what

As long as the law is not declared dead in China

Lawyers still have to save their clients according to their ethics

...

So they are still very busy

I heard that there are some clients

They will feel

Now the law is basically gone

Then why should I give money to lawyers

I might as well give the money

Just bribing these

some people from the public security organs

may be more effective

There is such a situation, right

I think this is still a

game theory in economics

If the party thinks

I can get greater benefits by bribing

he will definitely bribe

But there will also be some people

He thinks those are useless

Because the person who initiated your case is the Secretary of the Provincial Political and Legal Committee

You can’t break any relationship

Provincial Public Security Director

So you can only go to us

You can only go to us brave lawyers

Defend through public channels

So I have one sentence:

Don't make the grievance public

You deserve to die unjustly

If you don't make the case public

You deserve to die unjustly

Then I will ask you another question

Just two days ago, because of these entrepreneurs who committed suicide

Then I will talk to an entrepreneur

who is a very successful entrepreneur.

Let's talk

He said it was the atmosphere of entrepreneur gatherings in recent years

It's so depressing

Everyone talks about it as soon as they meet

Who is bankrupt and who can't pay off the debt

Who is arrested again and who is divorced again

He said the most pitiable

are these people who have been detained

They are treated inhumanely inside

They commit suicide

No one dares to say

I was persecuted to death by the Communist Party

Because they have to consider the safety of their families

Company employees

You can’t say anything. I’m curious what you think

It’s just that you can’t say anything. This phenomenon

It’s not that you can’t say anything at all

Everyone has also noticed that

there are some entrepreneurs

Also stand up and say it publicly

Or he said it himself

or through a lawyer

Those entrepreneurs who dare not stand up and say it

I completely understand him

Because I live in that environment

You know China has a tradition

What tradition does China have?

It’s called giving death

Giving death means I give you a chance

You commit suicide yourself.

Giving death is a tradition

What is the second tradition?

It's called death remonstrance

Death remonstrance

Just use my death

I'll remonstrate to you what's wrong with you

So these two traditions are ancient Chinese

very interesting traditions

But everyone knows that

these two traditions

are actually the parties involved

The final result of the game

is that he can get the maximum benefit

Let's think about it

A person who was given death and a person who gave death advice

What is the maximum benefit he can get

Let's think about it with our brains

He can save his family

Then you know

Like those entrepreneurs

Entrepreneurs like Wang Linpeng

Lost 20 pounds in three months

You can think about it

He is in this detention environment

He can't live or die

The same is true for the parties in the 709 case. Many of my clients are like this

He hopes he will die immediately

Because he can't stand the pain

Wang Quanzhang told me

He wanted to die at that moment

Is there any way to make him die?

He must be grateful

Because the pain

is really unbearable

The parties involved in 709 are like this

One day, two days, three days, four days

Two people and four people

Holding you within ten centimeters in front and back

The nose is in front

The nose is here

You have to report it even if you blink.

Then slap him if it doesn't work

Don't move at all

His legs are swollen like steamed buns

One of our clients

I've said before

His underwear can no longer be taken off

Use tweezers, little by little

Because it's summer, use tweezers, tear it out little by little

Even death is happiness for them

You know you must keep your promises when you reach humanity

First of all, dignity is gone

Because these people are outside

Mercedes-Benz five-star hotels

What kind of plane

After entering

First, all your dignity will be destroyed

Then it will be real torture

Torture is not a joke

Wang Linpeng did not die just after he came out

He must have been in that environment and he wanted to die

Then he came out

He finally had a chance to die

He must have promised them a lot of things

How do I betray my people? How do I betray other people

Because everyone knows

This case is related to the case of Jiang Chaoliang

Hubei Provincial Party Committee Secretary

High probability

The Hubei Provincial Party Committee Secretary has just been arrested.

It may be related.

We have no evidence.

Right, right.

We can only guess. He may have also deceived the Commission for Discipline Inspection

...

...

...

...

...

...

I should have made arrangements when I came out

I will die

Die

First

I prove that everything I said is false

He must have a suicide note

There must be a suicide note

The police will snatch this suicide note immediately

Second

His family must have been saved

He must have family members as hostages when he comes out

All the issues that everyone thinks are abnormal

Why did a certain entrepreneur

go abroad again

Why did a certain entrepreneur

come out and be active

You generally have to guess his family

His wife and children are being held hostage

Yes

So the death of Wang Linpeng

is also a game choice.

I have experienced too many cases like this

I'm really not shocked

I'm just talking about us people

We are the audience

As the audience

We have to see the extremely tragic and brutal political system behind this

...

It's too dark and terrible

We ask each guest to recommend three books

or film and television works

What do you recommend?

I recommend the first book and I am reading it for the second time

"Ox Demons and Snake Gods" by Yang Xiaokai

This book explains the topic I just talked about

Why he is cruel

Because it has something to do with the security of the policy

The second one also explains whether the Chinese are brave or not

Because many people accuse the Chinese of not being brave

The second book is "Institutional Gene" by Mr. Xu Chenggang

I am also reading it for the second time

This book explains the essence of our Wei Guangzheng

So everyone should read these two books by Yang Xiaokai and Xu Chenggang at the same time

...

One explains the essence and the other explains the cruelty

What is more interesting is that these two people are economists

The third one I particularly want to recommend two movies

Korean movies

The first one is called "Nanyingdong 1985"

In general

Without our brutal dictatorship

your life would be more miserable

In fact, it is precisely because of them

Our life is too miserable

But they say

He is our protector

Without them

Our life will be more miserable

The second Korean movie is called "The Defender"

Oops, we watched "The Defender" with tears in our eyes

That scene is all real

Don't we always say that lawyer Wu Lei is the defender

This scene is so close

Because those Korean movies are very, very real

That's right

Thank you very much

Thank you lawyer Wu Lei

And thank you all for listening

See you in the next issue

[Chinese]

大家好 欢迎来到不明白播客 我是主持人袁莉

在今天的节目开始之前 我想跟大家说一件事

9月6日 我们将在美国首都华盛顿举办第二届不明白节

没办法在北京办活动 我们就先在华盛顿办了

今年的嘉宾有蔡霞教授 林培瑞教授 作家查建英 美中关系专家戴博

记录片导演王男栿会来放映他拍摄的反映2013年公民抗争的流氓燕

欢迎大家来华盛顿和我们一起过节 一起聊聊中国 聊聊我们身处的时代 聊聊不明白的那些事

目前线下票已经开放购买 大家可以在本期节目的评论区或shownotes里

或者不明白播客的社交媒体账号上找到报名链接 期待在华盛顿与你们相聚

下面是本期节目

今天我们来谈一个沉重的话题 近期不断发生的企业家自杀事件

今年4月16日 金点子纺织公司创始人毕光军在家中离世

6月2日 杭州西子电梯董事长刘文超坠楼身亡

7月17日 广东亮家居创始人曾玉洲疑坠楼

7月27日 北京居然之家的董事长汪林鹏坠楼

短短三个多月 多位企业家接连非自然死亡 引发了舆论的震动

而这还只是在网络上有传播的自杀事件

同样令人不安的消息是 今年1-7月已经有至少19位上市公司的实际控制人

董事长或高管被检查机关

以留置措施调查 其中就包括刚刚去世的居然之家董事长汪林鹏

他被留置过三次 在最后一次留置被解除仅四天后突然坠楼去世

回顾过去五年 从任志强案 孙大午案 所谓的扫黑除恶打击有组织犯罪

到针对企业家的远洋捕捞 到今天的企业家破产 负债 被留置 坐牢 自杀

昔日光鲜亮丽的企业家群体 用悲歌一片来形容也不为过

本期我们邀请伍雷律师来聊一聊这些年企业家群体究竟经历了什么

伍雷律师是中国知名的刑辩律师 为不少企业家的案件辩护过

2019年他被政府打击报复 被吊销了律师执照 但一直在幕后为民营企业家维权出谋划策

伍雷你好 公众知道你是人权律师 是为像郭飞雄这样的异议人士辩护的

作为一名律师 你受理的为企业家维权的案件多吗

就是在2019年你的律师执照被吊销之前 你代理的案件中有多少是和民营企业家相关的呢

从我们职业经历上来讲 我们有60%以上的时间和精力是为中国的民营企业家提供各种法律服务

包括他们被逮捕之后为他们提供辩护 包括他们蒙冤之后为他们伸冤

因为很简单 中国企业家有支付能力 我们当然也会办一些穷人的案件 一些政治犯的案件

对 基本上就是你们用给企业和企业家办案子的收入来填补那些不挣钱的案子 是吧

是 我们用自己的话说 这叫杀富济贫 因为赚企业家的钱来帮助穷人

甚至有时候我为自己找出一个理论正当性来是 这些民营企业家在他们风光的时候

他们感受不到中国法治环境对他们的重要性 所以他们要为自己的认知来去买单

也是对社会公众的对法治的一个贡献 他交了律师费

然后有律师在帮助穷人 这似乎是一个平衡的工作量

嗯 对 那你看到最近一系列的企业家自杀和被留置处理的

这个消息后是一个什么样的反应 你吃惊吗

我当然不吃惊 根据我的职业经历 这完全在中国近几十年来 一直每天都在发生的

Everyday 有人被打死了 有人被蒙冤几十年 甚至有人被执行死刑了

我只是说对公众在这个问题上特别吃惊 我反而是特别吃惊

你能不能给大家普及一下 留置是怎么回事 一般在什么情况下会被留置带走

你有没有处理过这种被留置过的企业家案件

他们有没有给你讲过在里面都经历了什么

当然我们处理过类似的案件 留置原来是作为中国共产党的一个纪律规定

它是从双规而来的 在规定的地点 在规定的时间 老实交代你的问题

你到底贪污了 受贿了 还是违反政治纪律了

后来刑事诉讼法修改之后 就变成一个正式的刑事强制措施

称之为留置 这个是由地方检察委机构做出的

事实上我们法律是一回事 袁莉 你也知道在中国 实际是另一回事

不管是双规还是留置 是完全的被滥用了

大家不要讨论理论上是怎么回事 法律上怎么回事

这条规定已经被毫无限制的滥用了

那么我们的当事人 我们的企业家 官员 甚至和政治犯

在这个方面待遇 我认为是一致的

都是遭到了残酷的 我们称之为行刑逼供 譬如说饥饿

不让睡觉 殴打 不能刷牙 见不到阳光 等等等等

一般人是无法想象一个人留置之后会遭受多大的摧残

那你能不能跟大家说一下 留置它是一个法律程序吗

如果你称之为法律程序 我认为是污辱了法律这两个字

我们完全可以称之为一种绑匪程序 为什么

因为自从世界文明以来 所谓的法律程序就包含一个很重要的程序 律师参与

也就是 你不管是共产党还是国民党 你抓了这个人 一定要让律师会见

那么律师去探望他 了解他的法律问题

从你刑事诉讼启动开始 就应当赋予我们的被告人当事人以辩护权

而律师参与他的辩护 就是正当防卫的一个最主要 的手段

因为当事人被抓了起来 他就没有办法行使自我辩护权

但是留置 所有的律师都无法见到自己的当事人

那留置有没有一个时间的限制呢 就是说它最长能是多长时间

理论上是有时间限制 根据法律规定 但实际上是完全没有时间限制的

三个月到期了 他完全换一个法律规定 又关到看守所去了

然后从看守所期满之后 我又再把你留置了

这是完全违法的 但是没有制约

事实上 也很少有人敢反抗

那他们一般是被关在什么样的地方呢

你可以想象的是 这十年来建设了很多留置中心

这些留置中心 在前几年我们可以称之为黑监狱

但现在就是合法的监狱

它还没有看守所好 按照法律的规定

留置本来就是比在看守所里拘留和逮捕要更轻的一种羁押措施

我们可以大体上形容是一个三到五平方的酒店单间

但是可能没有床 四周全是海绵垫子

防止自杀 铁门铁窗

只有很简易的自来水和蹲便器

然后有一个木板放在那里 你看不到阳光

在里面就是标准的黑监狱

您能跟我们说一下您接触过的这些民营企业家的案子里面有什么共性

通常是地方政府主导调查呢 还是和中央有关系

这个留置好像大家的印象是说是配合调查

一般是不是会和官员的腐败案件有关系

能不能跟大家说一下一般是什么样子的案情呢

袁莉 你这个问题就是天问

大家经常问这个案子为什么发生 到底得罪了谁

我们就以汪林鹏这个案子为主

他留置了几个月 然后回家就跳楼自杀了

我们称之为湖北现象

大家要高度关注湖北这个地方

湖北在我看来 因为我们办过一个养猪大户

叫张德武 他在中国是民营企业前二十强

当地企业家 我说实在的

他们谈到纪委为之变色

就像我们小说里听到说

土匪胡汉三又杀过来一样

而且每一个人过关 过关是什么意思

你必须交代你和某个副省长

或者说某个副书记 你跟他行贿多少

甚至有的时候

这个副省长马上就要提拔到另一个省干省长了

包括当时的湖北省副省长

那位姓李的副省长 后来到辽宁省省长

他在干副省长的时候

湖北省纪委就在抓

他在襄阳干市委书记的时候

那些大型企业家

每一个人都过关

你给李省长送了多少钱

你必须承认送了多少钱

你不承认 你回不了家

这就是他们的政治斗争

是不是 权力斗争

但是我强调的是

政治斗争只是类似案件的一个原因

还有很多情况

像我们在山西吕梁地区

新一任公安局长上来了

按照惯例

大家都要送几百万

这个送钱是根据你的资产规模去送

大家可能都送200万到300万

但只有一个企业家送了50万

送了50万

他认为我和你关系很好啊

原来你做区公安局长的时候

我关系也很好

那我现在给你50万

然后那个公安局长说

你看不起我

你就是黑社会

各种各样的原因

所以你在中国完全没有办法来研究

这个企业家为什么被双规

为什么被留置

为什么被冤枉

一个公安局长就是这样

尤其在陕西

这些矿老板云集的地方

我停止执业那一年

我在陕西

你听听他们眼里的法律

那是什么法律

他们眼里的法律就是

那就是土匪

我需要花钱呀

他们抓住就自认倒霉

我需要送钱

我需要花钱

那你怎么看有不少人

就是在中国有一个

就是所谓的企业家的原罪

是吧

就是你发财就是发的不义之财

还有就是说

他们不少人就说

企业家商人发财

他们成功就是靠贿赂官员

他们被整治不值得同情

你怎么看这样子的一种说法

我倒非常感谢袁莉

你能提出这样一个问题

是因为作为律师呢

我们长期以来是和这样一个问题做斗争

当然

大家仇官仇富 我完全理解大家这种社会心理

因为大家生活都很悲催

有钱的和官员

那一定是坏人

这个在从社会大众心理上来讲

我完全理解

但是从法律上来讲

是不是对的呢

我认为是完全错误的

我接触了大量的中国的民营企业家

那你知道中国的民营企业家

按照吴思的理论

也是分层的

市场是分层的

有的是和政府权力解密结合在一块

像矿产

但是我告诉大家

像金利来这样的服装行业

像农夫山泉这样的矿泉水行业

像安踏这样的服装行业

它和权力没有一点关系

真的没有关系

权力既不能帮助它开拓市场

也不能让它赢得什么资源

所以我接触了很多的企业家

我了解他们的经历

像孙大午

像襄大集团张德武

他们从小非常贫穷

生活在困苦的环境当中

他们从卖小鸡

卖小猪仔开始

然后骑着自行车

开着摩托车

省吃俭用

真是创业非常非常艰难

后来我看到杨小凯那本书

叫牛鬼蛇神录

他描写书当中一个卢瞎子的资本家

他发了一段感叹 他说

这些民营资本家呀

小企业家

他们正当地追求财富

致富

养活自己

那种最朴素的对财产的追求

难道有什么过错吗

所以就我本身的经历来讲

我不敢说全部

我有一份证据说一份话

中国非常多的企业家

他是干净的

他们是用自己的聪明

勤奋

才华

来创造了自己的财富

当然另外一个角度来讲

你说他们有没有可能有受贿的

这个和受贿原罪有没有关系

比如说

我办一个餐厅

我办一个酒店

不给我批执照

我能不能我手下花2000块钱去送你

也有可能

但是送礼一定会让我致富吗

真的不一定

我相信朋友们会理解我的观点

消防总是过不去呀

你不给他送钱 你就是过不去

对呀

是被逼送钱

我这两天刚跟一个企业家

他说谁愿意把口袋里的钱平原无故的给别人啊

而且很多企业家在中国当今

有很多企业家也是有知识有文化的

他也追求一个人格的这样一个非常高尚化

他认为送礼是很卑鄙很无耻的

是的

所以他接受不了自己送礼

但是说实在的 袁莉

如果你是老总

你能完全回避这个问题吗

你不送礼

可能

但是你的分包公司从利润当中拿出50万去送礼

办了这个事情

你可能连知道都不知道啊

大家都知道你这个老总很正直

但是我为了完成我的任务

我偷偷去送礼

你可能也完全不知道啊

这就是中国逻辑啊

你在2023年的时候

你一直在微博上做一个直播系列

叫关注民营企业家冤案

还有这个直播题目直接就叫做 探讨民营企业家救生圈计划

就听起来这个企业家群体的生存状态已经非常严峻了

那你能说一下就是从什么时候开始

企业家的生存状态开始就是恶化的比较厉害

我认为有可能是从90年代以后

我们经济在大踏步往前走的时候

整个国民经济发生了天翻地覆的变化

民营企业家这个概念成立了

这个问题就更严重了

以前不是没有

但是以前的市场规模很小

它并不是一个全国性的市场

也不是一个互联网市场

尤其是2000年之后互联网时代来临

我的一个客户最多一天是赚到几千万人民币

也就是互联网社会已经对我们整个企业生产形态

收入形态发生了天翻地覆的变化

那么最好的企业家

他的盈利程度完全超过我们想象

所以我感觉可能90年代以后

有民营企业家

因为以前是乡镇企业家

90年代有民营企业家之后

这些和民营企业家有关的冤案 抓捕就开始了

因为总有各种原因

你得罪了县委书记

你的内部竞争

你的股东之间相互斗争

什么官员参股

然后到2000年就进入了一个

共产党认为我不需要企业家了

因为我足够强大了

我国有经济就足够做大了

你们是对我政权发生了很大的挑战和质疑

像吴小晖

你们已经非常有钱了

你们而且经常发牢骚

你们经常说一些难听的话

孙大午我也把你抓起来

对

2018年19年

根据我的观察

实际观察

很多地方财政已经完蛋了

东三省内蒙古

然后各地远洋捕捞就发生了

疫情之后

大规模的又是因为经济原因

仅仅是因为经济原因

这个数量也上来了

我还是认为随着经济的活跃程度

我们总体数量是越来越多

关于企业家类似的抓捕行为

你刚才说到了湖北

我正好刚才在准备的时候

我就看到了2021年湖北日报发布了一篇文章

题目叫湖北部署常态化扫黑除恶斗争

严厉打击针对企业和企业家的违法犯罪

我搞不清楚

就是说所谓的扫黑除恶

为什么要和严厉打击针对企业和企业家结合起来呢

在中国呀

我们最落后的部门

最落后的部门就是政法口

我们的政法口大约还停留在五六十年代

因为政法口我党赋予它的真正的职责

大家知道它是政治机关

它是刀把子

刀把子是什么

你讲究什么正义

不要讲什么正义 我让你割谁 你就割谁嘛

但是在湖北的这个打黑除恶这场运动

以张德武 我们办的襄大集团达到了一个高潮

这个高潮是什么

张德武的女儿

当然是在我们的支持下

她发表了一个非常重要的一个声明

我们企业不要了

我们献给国家了吧

甚至引起了中共中央农村工作办公室

中共中央什么书记处

全国统战部

全国政法联下去调查

湖北政法委终于撑不住了

然后连续开多个会议

高院

公安厅

湖北政法委

湖北纪委

保护民企业家

保护权力

但是打黑除恶也是中央的部署

是习总一号部署

所以就来了这么一个怪胎

我们要打黑除恶

但是你知道我们在湖北在那个阶段

见到的很多企业家

那他们是过筛子啊

有的企业家见我们就哭啊

描绘着他们在里面遭受的酷刑

对人的折磨

那些身价几十亿上百亿的企业家

在你面前

嚎啕痛哭

在里边

因为张德武一案

他们神奇的放出来了

然后他们说

不知道为什么我们放出来了

但是前面有很多人判刑了

判刑什么意思

在中国

你就是倾家荡产

家破人亡

你老婆孩子都进去了

你全家所有的亲戚都进去了

所以那些人

他们说从死里走了一趟

你对孙大午案是非常熟悉的是吧

你稍微跟大家说孙大午案是怎么回事

为什么这个案子出来以后

我觉得民营企业家

其实应该所有人都已经就彻底的觉得

这个制度是完全对他们没有任何保护了

我这么说你觉得对吗

当然

但是我认为如果仅看到孙大午和任志强和吴小晖

大家知道这三个案件

有一个共同的特点

什么特点

都是被判了18年

后来我们反复分析

为什么这案件共同判18年

后来一想

一个人假如过了50到60

18年

那基本上就让你死在监狱里

是因为判你死刑好像不大好意思

说我们是伟光正

我不能判你死刑

但是我又不想让你活着出来

这里我们就想说一下孙大午案件

我可以快速的简单的说

孙大午是一个白手起家的农民

他就是一个农民

而且他是一个朴素正义感的农民

他自己的企业是在50亿到100亿的资产

然后他同情中国的自由派

但是他并没有反对中国共产党

他和地方的关系大体上还是不错的

在案发前

他推行类似农业合作化

推行给农民治病不花钱

然后他有一个自己的企业帝国

就是在河北省徐水县

他的资产仅仅是那个芦花鸡

那个优质的小鸡和做鸡蛋

就大约40个亿的资产

金银白银的优质资产

他的医院大约11到20个亿的资产

他的温泉项目和房地产板块也是非常不错的

他没有什么太高的负债

他最大的负债就是那些农民

把自己的玉米和小麦放在那里涨利息

这就是后来指控他犯罪

真正的犯罪的原因

我认为是孙大午没有表示我对你的忠心耿耿和服从

而且在有些事情上经常的按照自己的意愿去表态

事实上这些表态现在看来本来也没有什么问题

但是在那个2018到2021年这个关口上

我们伟光正就要解决一批企业家

他们解决的这批企业家就是你一定要有实力

你有影响力

你甚至在他们看来你有一定的组织性

就我常说的 什么时候我党会把你定点灭掉

是三性

你的影响力

你的组织性

你的行动力

他们当你认为你有实力有影响力的话

他们就要出手

而不是你做了什么

事实上孙大午虽然和地方政府有一点矛盾

当时我们也劝他

因为那个地的问题和国营农场等等

但是还不至于出现那么大的问题

在那个节骨眼上要对全国民营企业家

对异议的民营企业家要速杀

要掐尖

所以就把孙大午一网打尽

和他一起被捕的还有他的家人和高管团队一共有24个人

对对

是的是的

而且这个政府的后来就基本上就是接管了

就是好像就花了一个亿还是几个亿

就把他那么大的一个公司全都给

说接管是接管

根本就是好听一点

就抢了是吗

就是抢了

真的就是抢了

特警和武警去抢了

我是每天都去

我去了大概几十次

大概几十次

每次他们都汇报

律师来了

但是还好还没没敢对我们动手

他可能感觉我们也不怕被抓

你认为就是这个事情当时出来了以后

你在这个企业家圈子里面大家是一个什么反应

你还记得吗

我认为那个时候我们就开始说那个预言故事

树上一百个鸟打死一只鸟

树上还有多少鸟

从孙大午案开始

中国的民企家大踏步开始往外跑了

之前还是悄悄的跑

孙大午案件之后

我认为十亿以上资产的中国企业家

每一个人都非常的慌张

任志强为代表的和体制内关系最密切的企业家

吴小晖代表的具有国际视野的民营资本家

孙大午代表的草根企业家

这三类

这三个人最共同点都是那种

我也不那么反对你

但是本质上没有走向行动

我只是发表一些言论

我没有投降你

没有紧跟你

没有到政协和你去胡吃海喝

去赞扬你

然后就遇到这个问题

之后我了解的中国企业家

不仅仅是我了解的中国企业家

我们整个的律师团队

了解的中国最优秀的企业家

每一个人都是高喊着

我要加大投资

响应总书记号召

我要做三年规划

五年规划

但是每一个人私底下都是卖企业

快跑

你两个月之前吧

你在X 就推特上说

真正让我难过的是中国民营企业家的天真与幼稚

所谓成就自己

证明自己产业报国

岂不知分分钟被司法怪兽吞噬

家破人亡

妻离子散

这样的场景案例我看的太多了

我想问一下就是你为什么这么说呢

当然我最近我看杨小凯的书啊

我反复在看杨小凯的这些书

包括一些经济学的书

我也完全理解中国企业家

因为身为中国人

我们小时候太穷了

我们小时候穷的

吃一个馒头都感觉到是特奢侈

我的一个当事人现在还关在看守所已经五年了

非常优秀的创业者

他说我用了三十年的时间

我实现了一个梦想

什么梦想呢

我想吃面包就吃面包

我想吃牛肉就牛肉

但是当我实现了这个梦想的时候

我就进了看守所了

然后我们山西吕梁的一个民营企业家

他是十亿资产的企业家

但是案发之后 袁莉

他在看守所里

他给我要什么你知道吧

他被看守所打的

把肋条打断

把眼角打断

他说李律师你能不能给我

哎呀我又害怕我崩溃

我经常想这些问题我崩溃

这么一个十亿的企业家给我要什么

李律师你给我搞点咸菜吃

一个十亿的民营企业家

他没有咸菜吃

因为在里边故意的不给他们放盐

然后你还知道他的女儿在英国留学

他的家庭原来是那么美好的一个家庭

我说过有财富的人一定不要认为他是坏人

他为老板姓做了很多事情

他那个人发誓要为我村里每一个人建一个别墅

他真的建成了

每一个人建一个别墅

但要交工的时候

把他抓进去

他女儿在英国留学

疯了

他英国留学老师问她

你怎么了

她说我没有钱交学费了

然后精神恍惚

然后老师再问他

她嚎啕痛哭

他全家所有人都被抓了

她没有人为她交学费

一个十八九岁的女孩

每天就在中国驻英国大使馆面前举牌子

救救我爸爸 救救我妈妈

大家真的不知道这些创业者

我觉得他们没有过错 袁莉

他们想的是产业报国

他们想的成就自己

是那种朴素的 没有认知的那种报国感

但是给他们的铁拳他们不知道啊

所以你刚才提到救生圈计划

这是我们多年以来一个梦想

就是在企业家他能够安全的时候

他要设置一笔资金

然后问题出现之后我们就是能够救他

但是从来都没有成立过

因为中国的企业家们

他在好的时候从来都不相信这些问题

他也不了解中国的社会

他认为我和省委书记啊 市委书记啊

我都是哥们 我都拍膀子

我能有什么问题呢

然后一旦有问题

一百亿的企业家拿不出一分钱来拯救他

大家看到我们有些案子是收钱的

有可能企业家案子我们也是没有钱的

我也看到你在一篇这微信公众号文章里面

是写就是那些自负的企业家是吧

你说他们令我万分惋惜

因为他们在创业过程当中

普遍忽视了在中国特色环境下的

极为重要的一个问题

企业家风险

这导致他们付出了沉重的代价

坊间流传有一句话

企业家不是在监狱里

就是在通往监狱的路上

以往的律师生涯使我确信

这并不是一句笑话

你能说一下就是接着你刚才说的

就是所谓救生圈计划是吧

你要有一笔资金放在旁边

就是如果有什么事情的话

就可以用是吧

那但是他们可能也会说

就像你刚才说的

我和这个省委书记市委书记

我们都是哥们呀

如何如何好了

还有就是大家会说

在中国这样一个法治不健全

政治意志大于这个法律效力的

这样的一个社会

这样一个国家

就企业家

他能做什么样子的风险规范呢

尤其是现在这种什么远洋捕捞呀

这种留置呀这么盛行

企业家能防什么样子的风险呢

他们肯定觉得就说如果出事了

我也没啥办法

从专业的角度来讲

防范总比不防范要好

我们并不是说防范一定要有效果

比如说我们开车

我们要扎上安全带

和有一个安全气囊

就一定比没有要更好一点

企业家应当有认知

他应当有一种责任感

或者说应当认识到

这个企业这个国家社会是危险的

但是真正让我难过的是

你知道是哪些企业家

也不是大午这些老企业家

也不是张德武这些老企业家

这些老企业家

有时候我想抓进去就抓进去吧

我们生活的这样一个年代

真正让我难过的是30岁

25岁那些最优秀的大学毕业五年的

那些最优秀的非常具有天才的创业者

他们甚至在美国拿到博士学位

很快第一轮第二轮创业完成之后

又回到中国

但是今天他们在中国的看守所里

就像山东我老家为例

现在抓这些创业者

在全国抓互联网创业者

已经抓疯了

真的是抓疯了

因为每一个创业者

会给当地政府带来十亿

几十亿的这样的贡献

因为大家都像抓猪一样

公安局长也高兴 刑警队长也高兴

市委书记当然高兴

因为我这个市里

这个县里每年才一个多亿的财政收入

你给我抓了一个大野猪来 抓了几十亿来

我基本上十年的财政

我不用忧愁啊

我们江苏盐城抓了一个400亿的

400亿什么概念

他当地都没有什么财政收入盐城

400亿啊

我的一个非常年轻的当事人

是福建的

他叫林峰

福清县的

他在法庭最后判决的时候哭着说

他是没有罪的

给他判了25年

打黑除恶

他说

共产党你们用我的时候啊

你们说我是企业家

你们不用我的时候

你们就说我是黑社会

我们山东大学那五位创业者

在山东德州宣判传销罪的时候

他们是多么聪明

多么勤奋的创业者

那个所谓的第一被告人

在宣判的时候

他说

我多么难过呀

你们判我也不要紧

冤枉我

你为什么把我这些同学

把我同事都判了

我们没有给社会造成一分钱的危害

那个案子

公安局立案

竟然是两年之前立案

因为两年之前

他的账上才有几个亿

一直等到账上

十个亿的时候

才收网啊

这种案子

我能讲一天一夜

都是真名真姓的

我的同事都知道是哪一个案子

我说实在

我还真的不敢

我说的太清楚

我有点担心

我们共产党又去报复他

因为这些人都在监狱里

你觉得现在这个留置

就是远洋捕捞

我们知道

这是纯粹是为钱的

对不对

但是这种留置呀

还有别的一些的

这样子的一些

针对企业家的案件

就是是经济因素更大呢

还是政治意志更大

我要强调的是

在中国政治经济是完全分不开的

譬如说

我给大家举一个详细的例子

大家都知道

在今天已经发展到什么程度了

我们认为的司法究竟是什么样的

譬如说两派政治斗争

这个人要提中央部委的部长

或者省长

真实的案例

那么另一个派别

从中央下来的

就是要把这个潜在的

正部级正省级的人干掉

那么怎么干掉他呢

就要抓曾经

他为官一任的那些企业家

但是那些企业家也知道

这个领导比较清洁 因为他志向远大

他想做中央领导

他根本都看不起我们这些小钱

他对我们这来视察

帮助我们扶持我们

只是作为政绩

但是纪委介入了

把你抓起来

一开始东问西问

最后告诉你

必须承认

给这位现在还没案发的副省长

送了一千万或者两千万

哇

这些企业家就忧愁啊

那怎么办呀

他们就开始编造

但是怎么编造啊

行贿罪需要有钱呀

需要来往啊

因为你即使说

我给他行贿了一千万两千万

我们从辩护的角度来讲

都要找到

一千万从哪里来的

从哪个银行提取的

放在哪里

这是第一点吧

第二

是怎么把这个钱送过去的

是用麻袋

还是用大包袱

还是用垃圾袋

送过去的

你用什么工具

你是从湖北到北京

还是从北京到湖北

还是山东

我们为什么这个问题呢

因为如果您准确到哪一天

我们通过你的手机

通话记录

就知道你这个事情真的假的

因为那时候你可能在台湾

在香港

在美国

你那天不可能来行贿

很多企业家就这样编

他知道那天

2017年8月4号

我那时候在美国

我就故意编这样一个时间

我去行贿

在北京大饭店

然后你是用什么交通工具

是坐什么高铁

还是让别人来和你一块去的

很多人编得很详细

你到了办公室里

因为办公室你知道

2015年之后

有非常多的摄像头

你在办公室里呀

还是在饭店里

豪华饭店更是有摄像头

中国几乎所有的接待地方

都有摄像头

他们就编

最后啊 省纪委去了

你最后承认了1000万

我们有位企业家 被吊在梁上

你承认

这位企业家是江西的

给江西这个副市长

送了多少钱

他没有钱嘛

因为他们是好朋友

他说我送了5万吧

5万不行

打

最后说50万

还打

就真的像渣滓洞一样

用那种鞭子啊

皮带打

说500万

还是打

最后说2500万 到4000万吧

最后正好检察长下来说

算了算了 别打了

他根本没这么多钱

2000万

2000万没有

但是你知道

省纪委会怎么样

没有钱

找不到一切证据

不要紧

你们曾经在一块吃过饭没有

和这个副市长

那边说是

我们在两三次吃过饭

到我企业来视察

或者我们一块到美国

或者一块到日本招商

好的

你们吃饭的时候

去到过厕所

离一块厕所

喝过咖啡没有

哦

是不是也去了

OK

你是不是和这个副市长说过

我把我企业的股份

10%给你

我没说过

没说过

你女儿就抓起来

你说过吗

10%

你不说你老婆就抓起来

你老婆不是癌症吗

癌症晚期吗

或者你儿子不是上高中吗 我马上开警车

到你儿子高中

直接把你儿子抓走

你儿子就以后就是精神病

企业家吓傻了

做一个笔录

说我当时和这位领导来

在某一个咖啡厅

或者在上厕所的时候

我说省长你好好照顾我

我给你留了10%的股权

省长说 好吧 到时候 你就我退休之后给我

然后那边就对省长双规了

然后也是同样手法

对 那个省长

没有人能经得起打压

你怎么打我

可能都没问题

但是你说爸爸孩子抓起来

爸爸老婆抓起来

然后当他老婆

还在北京医院住院

是癌症的时候

从医院直接拉走

同样在旁边刑讯逼供

挂在墙上

他们就崩溃了

承认OK

2000万成立

收回2000万

然后找上10个

你就是两个亿

然后死缓 或者死刑

这已经成为一个

普遍的模式了

这是这10年来

最新的普遍模式

从河北沧州

到山西吕梁

到湖北

所以谁听共产党的

判决和指控

哎

我也没法说

因为大家都仇官仇富

当然我并不是说

他们一定都是干净的

我只能根据这案卷说话

你前面说的就是

这个省长他要升了上去

然后就有人就来搞他嘛

这是一个权力斗争问题嘛

权力斗争问题

但是他要用这个经济犯罪

行贿受贿这种的

要有钱的数目

他才可以把这个案子坐实嘛

所以把企业家卷了进来

对不对

是的

但是你像蔡达标这些案子

我亲自做的案子

完全是股东之间内斗

一个股东

直接就把公安厅长买通了

我们去会见蔡达标

没办法会见

但是如果另一个律师去会见

和公安局汇报说

我们去见蔡达标

然后让蔡达标签合同

把股权转出来

马上就可以会见

人家公安局毫不掩饰

老大这是广东市公安厅长

后来那个人也被抓起来了嘛

所以完全是因为

股东内部抓起来了

也有上下游之间被抓起来的

也有各种各样的

那我再问你一下

就是有的企业家就会说

我在北上广

这些地方的那个法治环境

比较好

是不是就可以不那么担心

是不是可以更安心一点呢

我最近也说实在的

也在做这样一个节目

因为我看到了

有一幅地图说

投资不要过山海关

这句话已经过时了

投资你就在江浙沪

包括广东

不要过长江

如果让我说实话

说心里话

这些地方的司法

它的落后 腐败 手段 残暴

远远超过了东北和内蒙古

真的吗

我一直以为东北

尤其内蒙古这几年

远洋捕捞很厉害的呀

我们完全可以讲

东北 内蒙古那些地方

包括我们山东人没有见过钱

他搞几千万就幸福无比

没有想象力

但是在福建 在广州 在广东

几百亿 上千亿

瞬间就把你吞噬掉

在厦门

我们去做案子

厦门有个奥林匹克中心

那本来是一个文化公共建筑

但是能成功的变成私人商业地产

背后是天字号能捅到天

然后每个城市里

最有实权的

是公安局副局长

纪委副书记

法院副院长

检察院副检察长

这几个老官僚

广州 厦门 福州全部是这样的

把那些民营企业家像毒蛇一样围猎

我们做的这个厦门

那个案子叫江什么东

奥林匹克的案子

完全把那个人刑讯逼供冤案

最后平反过来有什么用

那个人就活活被气死了

十多亿的资产被抢走了

譬如说江苏无锡

江苏无锡就是整个经济发达地区

迫害民营企业家最典型的代表

看守所里80%的人是外地的

这什么概念

他们在远洋捕捞啊

大家千万不要认为

江苏浙江福建上海是好的

公检法那些地方更落后残暴

但是这些话

当然我不是社会学家

我不是统计学家

我是律师的感受啊

我有很多真实的案例啊

我想如果谁不相信的话

开一个节目

我可以讲十天十夜

每一个案例我都不会重复

我全都告诉他

这个真名真姓

我都在网上披露过

我们律师一听浙江 头都大了

浙江的刑讯逼供

就要把人活活打死

我的一个企业家朋友

我现在想起来

我都非常难过

浙江绍兴

你知道绍兴经济很发达

突然有一天这个企业家

全部家人被打成黑社会了

家里还剩一个人找我

李律师救救我吧

我马上委托了一批律师去

当时他只能拿30万块钱

我好像找了一二十个律师去帮他

因为那个家我认为很可怜

好像他们家说

除了他一个人都被抓了

好像家里还出了一个长病的

然后律师去了

当地公安局长就吓唬他

绍兴公安局

七层大楼记住

绍兴公安局长就说

你把律师都辞退了

我们就给你轻判

放过你家

然后他就没和我商量

他就把律师辞退了

律师就回来了

然后第二天

公安局长又把他全家

其余的人又抓了

有些远房亲戚

那个人想不开了

他特别难过

他认为被骗了

家里没钱了

你猜怎么着

他爬到绍兴公安局七楼上 跳楼自杀了

天哪

我过了好多天 我知道我太难过了

因为我只有在电话里

我和他打过交道

我特别恨呐

我就非常恨

律师们也是退出来之后

又告诉我

我说你死都不怕

为什么不再联系我

我们在想办法呀

人你要活着 我们还可以再杀回去啊

但是他就想不开

他觉得对不起他家人

凑30万不容易

这案子发生在大约2020年

我可难过了 我就觉得特别对不起这个人

我其实没拿他一分钱 袁莉

我就想象不出这个人就是

他多么懊悔 多么难过

但是责任不归他呀

他家人被抓了

但是把律师辞退之后

又抓了更多的远房亲戚 朋友 公司同事

他就想不开了

这个人是有名有姓的

大家可以去找

有名有姓的

对

我想起这种事情来

我简直要崩溃

所以我经常被采访的时候

我就一下就崩溃

不好意思 我都要问你最难的这种问题

就是你会怎么跟这些企业家的家

就是你的这些当事人

他们的家属来说

因为或者是这些当事人

因为他们很容易就被政府呀

这种公检法就会给吓唬住

或者是骗了

就经常就会把律师

中间就换掉了

换成政府的律师

或者就把这个律师辞退了

我想你这种事情

你肯定经历过很多

这些当事人和他们的家里人

你会是一种什么样的建议呢

我的方法可能 我经常给国内律师做培训

和家属辅导 和当事人做辅导

我有一个概念 有的时候我们年轻律师问我

李律师这个卷宗三百多卷 我记不住

我说你把当事人当成你亲爹

你试试看

你把他当成自己的亲人

我们也完全理解

他在一个高压之下

随时可能出卖律师

可能辞退律师

可能投降

这都是他的选择

我们也完全理解他

但是作为律师呢

我们是希望能找到那些

和我们理念完全一致

对认知和我们完全一致的人

我们也需要看到

互联网社会这二十年来

已经发展到今天

有一大批企业家当事人

他已经在对社会认知上来讲

和我们差不多了

也就是他的亲人刚被抓到看守所

刚被留置

他第一时间就找到我

然后我大年三十

我初一我立即出发

很多人说

一个人被双规被留置

你怎么办

我说我有我的办法

我从北京我去不了

我安排人给他发传真

给当地市委市政府纪委

跟每一个公安局派出所发传真

说某某企业家是我的当事人

你不能打他 不能骂他 不能饿他

如果你胆敢打他

早晚有一天我要给你捅到CCTV

焦点访谈

我当然是吓唬他

焦点访谈永远不会管我们

他们一看来了个不要命的伍雷

传真发的满天飞

微博发的满天飞

他绝对不敢打他

他只会不让他动他

这就很好了

不被打就不会说假话

不饥饿就不会敢胡搞

当然并不是绝对的

有很多案子我们也没有得到解决

但是当事人他应当认识到

他没有更好的办法

这是你的选择

我经常和当事人说

你感觉找我之前你有好的方法吗

他说没有

我说你觉得有比我更好解决的吗

他说没有

我说你认为还有可能和官方和解吗

说没有

我说你认为是不是死路一条了

他说是的

我说好咱死马当活马医 OK

就是这样往前走

我们重要的是

我们有60%的成功率

并不是完全把它搞成无罪了

而是

哎呀说实在的

在我党的这个体系下

本来山雨欲来的黑社会

像张德武这样的案子

已经起诉到黑社会

起诉到法院

最后退回了

撤诉了

然后搞个三五年 五六年

这已经是大获全胜了

这就是我们算胜利了

财产保留住了

那我再问一下

就比如说2021年

孙大午案发生的时候

就一位参与案件的这个律师跟我说

那几年因为对企业家阶层的打压

刑辩律师都忙不过来了

你能说一下

现在的情况还是这样子吗

有没有变化

就是企业家和他们的家属还想打官司吗

第一个判断是 勇敢的刑辩律师仍然是最忙的

因为中国人口众多 经济活动多

那么当时的纠纷可能来自于官方

也可能来自于股权设置

投资回报等各种各样的纠纷

司法不公

导致勇敢认真的律师

他的市场越来越大

因为大家认识到

我去勾兑可能不管用

这是第一个方面

第二个方面

我们当事人

我感觉这两年

可能胆子也越来越小

因为社会的管制

非常非常的严重

已经管制到什么程度

管制到你刚发一个微博

警察就来敲你门打电话

对律师同样是这样的

所以整体上

我们的司法的这条路子

已经堵死了

现在不是讨论司法好不好的问题

而是讨论司法有没有的问题

但是不管怎么样

只要在中国不宣布法律完蛋了

律师仍然要按照他的伦理

来救他的当事人

所以仍然是很忙的

我听说就是有一些当事人

他们就会觉得

现在法律就是基本上没有了

那我干嘛要把钱给律师呢

我还不如把钱

就是去贿赂这些

一些公检法的人

可能效果还更好一些

是有这样的情况对不对

我认为这仍然是一个

经济学上的一个博弈理论

如果当事人认为

我去贿赂能获得更大的收益的话

他一定去贿赂的

但是也会有一部分人

他认为那些都没用

因为启动你案件的 是省政法委书记

你什么关系都打破不了

省公安厅长

所以只能找我们

只能找我们这些勇敢的律师

通过公开的渠道去辩护

所以我有一句话是

伸冤不公开

冤死也活该

冤案你不公开的话

冤死也活该

那我就接着来问你一个

就前两天因为这些企业家自杀的

那我就和有一位企业家

是相当成功的企业家

就谈起来

他说就是这几年企业家聚会的气氛

压抑的不行

大家一见面就说

谁又破产了 谁又还不起债了

谁又被抓了 谁又离婚了

他说最可怜的

就是这些被留置的人

就是在里面受到非人的待遇

就是自杀了

也没有一个人敢说

我是被共产党迫害死的

因为他们要考虑到家人

企业员工的安危

什么话都不能说 我好奇你怎么看

就是这个什么话都不能说 这个现象

并不是完全什么话都不能说

大家也注意到

有一些企业家

也公开的站出来说

或者他自己说

或者通过律师说

那么不敢站出来说的那些企业家

我完全理解他

因为我就生活在那个环境里

你知道中国有一个传统

中国有一个什么传统呢

叫赐死

赐死 就是我给你一个机会

你自己自杀 自裁

赐死 这是一个传统

第二个传统是什么

叫死谏

死谏

就以我之死

我去给你谏言你的不对

所以这两个传统是中国古代

非常有意思的传统

但是大家知道

这两个传统

都实际上是当事人

博弈的最后结果

是认为他能获得最大利益

大家想想

一个被赐死的人 和一个死谏的人

他能获得的最大利益是什么

我们用脑子想想

他能保全他的家人

那你知道

像那些企业家

像汪林鹏这些企业家

三个月瘦了20斤

你可以想想

他在这个留置的环境内

求生不能 求死不得

709案件当事人也是这样 我的很多当事人都是这样

他希望他马上就死

因为他受不了那个痛苦了

王全璋告诉我

他那一刻就想死

有什么办法能让他死啊

他一定是感谢

因为那个痛苦

实在是受不了了

709的当事人都是这样的

一天 两天 三天 四天

两个人四个人

前后十公分之内夹着你

前面是鼻子

这边是鼻子

你眨眼睛都要报告

然后不行就一耳光

一动都不动

腿肿得像馒头

我们一个当事人

我以前说过

他的内裤已经脱不下来了

要用镊子 一点点一点点

因为夏天嘛 要用镊子 一点点撕出来

就是死对他们来讲是幸福的

你知道 到人道一定不言成诺

首先是尊严的没有了

因为这些人在外边都是

奔驰 五星级酒店

什么飞机

进去之后

首先把你的尊严全都摧散了

然后真的酷刑

酷刑不是说着玩的

汪林鹏不是出来才死的

他一定在那个环境里 他就想死

然后出来

他终于有机会死了

他一定是答应了他们很多事情

我怎么出卖我的人 我怎么出卖其他人

因为大家知道

这个案子是和蒋超良

湖北省委书记这个案子有关的

大概率

湖北省委书记刚刚抓起来

是有可能有关

我们没有证据

对对对

我们只能猜嘛

你知道留置被放出来

就是一定达到了纪委和检察委的目的了

也就是你自污

你自己承认犯罪了

好

他或许也骗过了纪委

我出来该安排好的安排好了

我就死了

死了

第一

我证明我说的话全是假的

他一定有遗书的

一定有遗书

这个遗书公安第一时间会抢

第二

他的家人一定保全了

他出来一定有家人在里面做人质的

所有大家认为不正常的问题

说某个企业家

为什么又出国了

某个企业家

为什么还出来活蹦乱跳

你大体上要猜测他的家人

他的老婆孩子在做人质了

对

所以汪林鹏之死

也是一个博弈的选择呀

这种案子我经历的太多了

我真的不震惊

我只是说我们老百姓

我们做观众

作为听众

我们要看到这个背后

极其悲惨和残暴的政治体系

太黑暗了 太可怕了

我们请每位嘉宾推荐三部书

或者影视作品

你有什么推荐

第一本我推荐 我正在看第二遍的

杨小凯的《牛鬼蛇神著》

这本书解释了刚才我这个话题

他为什么残暴

是因为和政策的安全性有关系

第二还解释了中国人究竟勇敢不勇敢

因为很多人指责中国人不勇敢

第二本书就是许成钢老师的《制度基因》

我也在看第二遍

这本书解释了我们伟光正的本质

所以杨小凯和许成钢老师这两本书

大家要同时对照看

一个解释本质 一个解释残暴

更有意思的是 这两个人都是经济学家

第三个我特别想推荐两个电影

韩国的电影

第一部叫《南营洞1985》

大体上是

如果没有我们残暴的专政

你们就生活更悲惨

事实上呢 正是因为他们

我们生活太悲惨

但是他们说

他是我们的保护者

没有他们

我们生活更悲惨

第二部韩国电影叫《辩护人》

哎呀 我们看的是热泪盈眶 《辩护人》

那个镜头都是真的

我们不老说这伍雷律师不就是辩护人吗

这个镜头都是如此的亲近

因为韩国那些电影拍得非常非常真实

对对

好谢谢

谢谢伍雷律师

也谢谢大家收听

我们下期再见

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
entrepreneur /ˌɒn.trə.prəˈnɜːr/ B2	noun - a person who creates and runs a business, taking on financial risks.
detention /dɪˈtɛn.ʃən/ B2	noun - the act of holding someone in custody, often by authorities. verb - to keep someone in custody.
lawyer /ˈlɔɪ.ər/ A2	noun - a professional who advises and represents people in legal matters.
corruption /kəˈrʌp.ʃən/ B2	noun - the dishonest or fraudulent use of power for personal gain.
suicide /ˈsuː.sɪ.daɪd/ B1	noun - the act of intentionally taking one’s own life. verb - to kill oneself.
investigation /ɪnˌves.tɪˈɡeɪ.ʃən/ B2	noun - the systematic examination or inquiry into something, especially a crime.
prosecution /ˌprɒs.ɪˈkjuː.ʃən/ C1	noun - the institution or act of conducting legal proceedings against a person.
injustice /ɪnˈdʒʌs.tɪs/ C1	noun - lack of fairness or justice.
power /ˈpaʊ.ər/ B1	noun - the ability or authority to control or influence people or things.
prison /ˈprɪz.ən/ A2	noun - a building in which people are legally held as punishment for crimes.
punishment /ˈpʌn.ɪʃ.mənt/ B2	noun - a penalty imposed for an offense.
abuse /əˈbjuːz/ C1	noun - the improper use of power or authority for personal benefit. verb - to misuse or treat someone badly.
oppression /əˈprɛʃ.ən/ C1	noun - prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control.
trial /ˈtraɪ.əl/ B2	noun - a formal examination of evidence in a court to decide guilt or innocence.
bribery /ˈbraɪ.bər.i/ C1	noun - the act of giving or receiving something of value to influence the actions of an official.
rights /raɪts/ B1	noun - legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement.
case /keɪs/ B1	noun - a legal matter or dispute that is examined by a court.
defend /dɪˈfend/ B2	verb - to represent someone in a legal proceeding, protecting their interests.

Key Grammar Structures

• 大家好 欢迎来到不明白播客 我是主持人袁莉

  ➔ Present tense

  ➔ The sentence uses the present tense to introduce the podcast and the host.

• 在今天的节目开始之前 我想跟大家说一件事

  ➔ Present tense with time marker

  ➔ The sentence uses the present tense with a time marker ('before today's program begins') to indicate an action happening now.

• 9月6日 我们将在美国首都华盛顿举办第二届不明白节

  ➔ Future tense with specific date

  ➔ The sentence uses the future tense with a specific date ('September 6th') to express a planned event.

• 没办法在北京办活动 我们就先在华盛顿办了

  ➔ Present tense with modal verb

  ➔ The sentence uses the present tense with a modal verb ('have to') to express necessity or obligation.

• 今年的嘉宾有蔡霞教授 林培瑞教授 作家查建英 美中关系专家戴博

  ➔ Present tense with list

  ➔ The sentence uses the present tense to list the guests, indicating current information.

• 记录片导演王男栿会来放映他拍摄的反映2013年公民抗争的流氓燕

  ➔ Future tense with specific action

  ➔ The sentence uses the future tense to describe a specific action ('will come to screen') that will happen.

• 欢迎大家来华盛顿和我们一起过节 一起聊聊中国 聊聊我们身处的时代 聊聊不明白的那些事

  ➔ Present tense with invitation

  ➔ The sentence uses the present tense to extend an invitation, making it sound more welcoming.

• 目前线下票已经开放购买 大家可以在本期节目的评论区或shownotes里

  ➔ Present perfect tense

  ➔ The sentence uses the present perfect tense ('have been opened') to describe an action that started in the past and continues to the present.

• 或者不明白播客的社交媒体账号上找到报名链接 期待在华盛顿与你们相聚

  ➔ Future tense with expectation

  ➔ The sentence uses the future tense with an expression of expectation ('looking forward to') to convey anticipation.

• 下面是本期节目 今天我们来谈一个沉重的话题 近期不断发生的企业家自杀事件

  ➔ Present tense with topic introduction

  ➔ The sentence uses the present tense to introduce the topic of the episode, making it clear and direct.