– English Lyrics

Lyrics & Translation

[English]

hi everyone thank you so much for coming

out and thank you Chris and the conduit

for Lending us this really lovely huge

room again um we must have done

something right next last year um and

hopefully you'll have us back next year

too um and thank you all for coming out

tonight um coming to an event that

promises to make you feel uncomfortable

is a hard sell at the best of times not

least in the middle of January so well

done and thank you um for those of you

who don't know us we're talking to Boos

and we exist to kind of uncover um and

understand and raise awareness of

different taboo subjects which is what

we'll be talking about

tonight it's really important to have

these kind of conversations because they

do deflate and minimize the impact and

the harm that taboo subjects can cause

on people so we really appreciate you

all being here and we're excited to chat

about it last year was fantastic it was

really exciting we had our first ever

today's Tabo launch and then our full

run of events which I think some of the

people in the room came to um so we were

yeah Blown Away by uh people actually

turning up to talk about these

uncomfortable subjects um and we were

really appreciate all those who came who

spoke and who hosted us in their

spaces trying to find out what subjects

people don't want to talk about and then

asking them to talk about is a little

bit tricky and um so it's uh something

to be proud of I think for all of us at

the charity that we managed to make that

happen um and it's people like you guys

who come out who Inspire us to to to do

this and it wouldn't be possible without

you because we'd be talking to ourselves

so thank you before we start talking

about um the taboos this

evening I just wanted to share a little

bit of information to keep us all safe

and

happy we all know that taboo topics need

to be brought out into the open and have

conversations about them in a safe and

supportive way but we're really mindful

that there will be lots of different

people here with different lived

experience of the taboos in this year's

report that we're going to be touching

on so he wanted to let you know in

advance um what they're going to be so

the topics we're going to be touching on

are um body identity and anti-at bias

Suicidal Thoughts non- recent child

sexual abuse and stigma abuse P faced by

parents of children with sen or special

educational needs um so if you need to

step away at the room from the room at

any point please F free and our lovely

colleague and friend Caroline is here

Caroline

wave and she's going to keep an eye on

if anyone needs any extra support and

help you out the room and into a quiet

space and I heard that she's got this

really cool toy with her which hasn't

shown me yet but I think it's apparently

it's really cool yeah

she so plan for this evening it's two

for one on panels um we're going to have

first up these fantastic women will be

revealing the taboos that we found this

year you might have already seen them

flicking through but we'll tell you a

little bit how it got there out of all

of the Tabo that we could why why those

and then our second Channel we'll have a

panel we'll have a little bit of musical

chairs and amazing Benji will be joining

us um we did also have lovely yansy but

she's not feeling very well so I will

hopefully bring a few of her points

points forward because they were

fantastic and I'm sure she'll be at some

of our other events this year um we're

really excited to have Benji here uh and

then we'll have a Q&A so for your first

panel I've got cat Jennings who is the

director of talking to Boos and Louise

who is the chair of Trustees at talking

to booze hi

both can you give me a little

introduction to

yourselves yeah great um so my name's

cat um my pronouns are she her um I'm

the director of the talking to boo

foundation and also a researcher and I

was very involved in the research that

we'll be talking about um this evening

um in terms of a visual description of

myself um I am a average height um woman

with blonde shoulder length hair with

lots of Gray highlights in it um and I'm

wearing my favorite color of uh navy

shirt jeans um and a pair of colorful

shoes

hi I'm Louise I'm a researcher in my day

job as well and I'm the chair of

Trustees of talking to boo terms of

visual description oh I prepared for

this but it's still really hard to

describe yourself in a way that feels

comfortable

middleaged um brown hair no Grays cuz I

colored my hair in preparation for

tonight few wrinkles to betray the

middle-aged because I haven't had Botox

in a while and I'm as for my weight I'm

just not even going to go there that's

me I for got to do mine as well I'm

white I've

got like Boo bling I don't know like

midlength long hair blonde hair and I'm

wearing pretty much all black with uh

blue socks okay so Louise we're really

excited to introduce everybody to our

new chair of Trustees um tell us a

little bit about why you came on board

and also why this room is kind of

important to why you came on board well

I work a lot in health related issues in

my day job whether it's physical or

mental health topics and I talk to

people about those and so I'm aware

through that of how much can go unsaid

uh I came to last year's event and was

really stimulated by that and triggered

um and reflected afterwards about how

learning about any given too and

figuring out how to talk about any given

Tabo can unlock a fresh level of kind of

a new level of comfort and understanding

and how to approach loads of different

tusos um and in my personal life over

the past few years I've been wrestling

with one particular taboo that I've got

um quite deep lived experience of and

then I've been on the sort of receiving

end of participant in conversations

about another couple of tabos that we've

been that were covered tonight and so

across all of that I've been thinking

about how can I better equip myself and

how can I kind of work to support others

to have those uncomfortable

conversations um and I'm really

interested in where there's

intersections across all the different

tabos that we cover and how we can kind

of learn across those intersections and

and to equip ourselves um in general and

we're so excited to have you on board

and also your input and insights to the

report have been amazing did anything

surprise you about what we what we

found um yeah I mean I was really

surprised and we'll get dig into the

methodology in just a second I won't go

into that right now myself cat will

touch on that but I was really surprised

when we get got into the process of

identifying our tabos uh long listing

them short listing them determining

which to cover just how prevalent the

taboos that we're going to cover tonight

are um but then the gap between that

prevalence and our awareness of how

prevalent those are and then the Gap

again to how comfortable we are talking

about them and that kind of speaks to

the very nature of these tabos that we

we experience many of them but we don't

know how to talk about them we don't

feel comfortable to talk about them we

don't necessarily know how to respond

when others bring them up um and then

then there's shame and fear and stigma

that Circle all of that so just the very

nature of the widespread aspect of them

and then the kind of down the funnel to

how how little we talk about them and

how uncomfortable we are to talk about

them um and then just kind of looking at

what's going on in the world around us

just how you know how much is changing

how difficult the backdrop that we're

living in is and how these a lot of

issues that fuel these taboos are

growing whether it's kind of economic

hardship or health issues out there so

kind of really looking at although we're

getting more and more sophisticated and

understanding of how to talk about

sensitive issues actually a lot of

issues are growing and we're still not

sufficiently there in how to have those

uncomfortable conversations and that's

what makes taboos get stronger and and

worse is that silence and I think it's

fair to say in our report some of the

data we found was really eye openening

about how many people are struggling

with these taboos but just not talking

about them at all yeah so um in the

detailed report which will be published

on our our website um tonight you'll get

to see the kind of um data around each

of these individual taboos but for

across all the taboos four in 10 people

um have been personally affected by at

least one of these taboos and six in 10

people have been um affect personally

affected or know someone who has been

affected um by these taboos so we can

get a sense of like how much even

looking at four topics we are talking

about things that affect a broad range

of people um within the UK um to

touching on Louise's point about the

uncomfortability and the lack of

conversations in spite of that

widespread experience of these

taboos of none of the taboos more than

one in five people have had a

significant conversation about these

topics in the last five years in in the

last 12 months so we're seeing that gap

between the experiences but not backed

up by significant conversations and we

know that one of the barriers to that is

around comfortability of those

conversations um and so of again looking

across the taboos only less than half of

people are comfortable having

conversations about each of these topics

only one in five of us is comfortable

talking about all of these topics and so

that's why events like we run and the

purpose of the charity is about getting

people more comfortable talking about

them so that people who are affected um

and experien these two taboos or are

close to people people who are

experiencing these taboos aren't so

isolated and don't experience them alone

as we know they do at the moment and

that six in 10 stat is pretty crazy and

thinking about the room here that's over

half of us who either experience

personally these taboos that we're going

to talk about or know someone who has um

but one in one in five of us or very few

of us are talking about it well let's

get into what the toos are uh you will

have seen them around the room already

so it's not really that much of a

surprise

um but the four that we found that need

most urgent attention this year are um

be helpful if the whole the whole one

came up now but we'll see silence

Suicidal Thoughts surviving child sex

abuse body bias and shamed s

parenting so how did we find them as I

said it's pretty hard to find out what

people aren't talking about but also

kind of want to have conversations about

and we changed our methodology a little

bit this year from last year actually

kind of we we wanted to change it anyway

but it was a couple of questions that we

had in the Q&A here who really spurred

us on so q&as do matter so do ask

questions um Kat can you tell us a

little bit about what we did differently

this year yeah so I think it's we're a

small charity at the moment but we're

definitely growing and we're growing in

the approaches that we use to this piece

of work that we will do on an annual

basis in terms of what we added this

year we wanted to make sure that we were

seing um at discovering these taboos to

people who are working with communities

or in spaces where these taboos um were

emerging and so we added expert

interviews to our methodology with a

particular focus of people working in

health inequalities and with

marginalized and racialized communities

and working in more activism um for

inclusivity roles um and that was really

important for us in making sure that we

were understanding and exploring um

taboos through that intersectional lens

um that we've spoken about and then we

also added um public opinion polling to

our method as well so that we could

understand the size scale and the com

comfortability of these

conversations and then the final change

that we made was that once we had our

four to um we worked with Charities

working in each of these spaces we're

not a taboo specialist we are a taboo

generalist charity rather than AO

specialist charity so it's really

important to us that we partner with

organizations s that have worked and

have deep expertise in these spaces um

so we have spoken to people like

Samaritans the survivors trust um

campaign against living miserably um

obesity UK and also in the report there

are some stories from people who are

experts by experience on these tabos um

and I would highly recommend that you

read those stories because I think they

bring so much to the our understanding

of these taboos yeah they're really

brilliant and thank you to sfia jam and

and Lucy who shared their stories um

okay and then a couple of the things

that we did that last year that we

repeated what were they um so our first

step was trying to uncover the taboos

which is our perennial problem as a

charity of there are so many taboos that

we could be and should be talking about

um so we did an initial long listing

that Drew on um input from events that

we're running like this evening yeah and

you might have spotted this massive box

at the back of the room and some slips

and pens we'd love to hear from you to

kind of put your vote in for the taboos

that you want to hear about next year um

it's the our first step in deciding what

the Tabo are going to be is to look at

what the people around us who are coming

to these events want to hear about from

from all of your experiences so yeah do

add them in there because we really do

use

them um we then um did a discover

discover a i who partnered with us last

year um did another scan of the social

media and media landscape and we've got

a couple of people from Discovery I here

tonight and we are incredibly grateful

for the depth of understanding and the

the scope that they can bring to this so

they helped surface a long list of

taboos um and we uh spoke to experts as

well um who helped highlight um the

taboos that they felt uh needed urgent

attention so Louise you were part of the

long listing uh decision making as was I

was it easy

nope um so I mentioned I've got lived

experience of one in particular and I've

had conversations about another two but

I was very conscious that I didn't want

to bring my own personal bias or

experience to this so that kind of

created a bit of a filter in my mind in

the process and we were all very

conscious about that I think it's fair

to say it's not about us um and so and

there's so much that we could cover so

how do you decide we wanted to be

objective and rigorous in our selection

so we took some time to figure out how

to prioritize what the criteria would be

quite a number of conversations about

that we had a Myro board oh the Myro

board makes all of this so much easier

and lots of kind of sifting and sorting

and brainstorming through that um and

then we eventually through various steps

of um of discussion and criteria

application reached a long list that we

then took into a short list but no it

wasn't easy because there's just so much

as Kat said there's just so much out

there that we don't talk enough about um

so where where do you

begin yeah and we used um as as Louise

said we we spent quite a lot of time

thinking about the criteria with which

we would we would select these so we

looked at Deo that came up across

multiple sources so that had shown up in

the social data um in the um expert

interviews that we conducted in the at

events we also asked our experts um when

we were speaking to them to suggest the

taboos that they felt were most

important within the communities that

they were working with so we we took

that into account um and then sifted

down to to 10 and then how did we get

from 10 to four so that was where we

used our first um public opinion poll to

whittle down from 10 to 4: um we asked

people in that public opinion poll two

questions we asked them which of the top

which of these 10 topics do you feel

most uncomfortable talking about um and

which of these do you want to hear more

conversations about um and there were

some interesting kind of nuances around

that data around the fact that the

uncomfortable conversations were not

necessarily the taboos that people

wanted to hear more conversations about

there was some overlap um we chose two

that came up most highly on most

uncomfortable which was child sexual

abuse and suicidal thoughts and then we

chose two further um taboos that people

wanted more conversations about and they

were body bias and behavioral challenges

in

children suicidal thoughts also came up

as a topic that was high on a lot of

people's list of a conversation that

they wanted to hear more convers hear

more conversations about um and I think

that that that desire around hearing

more conversations about the these is

important but also with child seual

abuse a topic that people are

uncomfortable having a conversation but

did not necessarily select as a topic

that they want to hear more about as us

as a charity it's really important that

we still encourage conversations around

um taboos um that feature on on that

list as well yeah absolutely it's

important to have both of those taken

account of so and with taboos often in

our work we find that there's so many

different challenges within that one

subject that what we're trying to do is

as a charity looking across all taboos

rather than a specific subject charity

is to really get to the heart of what is

causing that to be such a

taboo and what is the action that needs

to happen Louise can you share a little

bit about um shamed s parenting in terms

of yeah what was at the heart of that

taboo yeah I think this is a really

interesting one in that many people here

are probably parents and we bring to um

parenting our own upbringing the culture

that we're absorbing um which is kind of

generally focused on talking about the

experiences of parenting neurotypical

children um and so we look at how

parents of children who fall outside of

the Norms parent and there's a lot of

judgment there's a tendency in culture

today to assume that we can as parents

mold our children really actively and

make them who we want them to be

um and it's our responsibility to make

them into good kind High achieving

children whatever our goals might be and

of course they are who they are from

birth and there's only so much that we

can do to influence that but we bring

this kind of sense of expectation that

we can make children who we want them to

be to how we judge other people and

their children um and there's so much

judgment out there um when we look at

kids who are struggling or who are

behaving in unexpected ways who are

behaving in ways that could be quite

difficult or might be seen as is

unpleasant parents are so often blamed

and what sits underneath that is just a

lack of understanding and then

furthermore a real lack of

empathy and this is so key to what we're

trying to call for is space approaching

things with no judgment and with empathy

and um I know from my work in this space

of uh Suicidal Thoughts that there is

similar misconceptions there's similar

need a similar judgment going on K you

want to share a little bit more about

what we found yeah so I think this Tabo

came up um across uh a couple of expert

interviews fairly early in our initial

discussions um in fact jansy who can't

be here this evening spoke about the

fact that often in her working in

communities around around this topic

people whis young people were Whispering

their feelings to her so there's a

there's a fear about saying and and

telling people about uh Suicidal

Thoughts um but there is also a fear and

stigma that's associated with this

thought there's also around this taboo a

real fear about asking others about

suicidal thoughts and a real fear that

we will make it worse which couldn't be

further from the truth talking about

Suicidal Thoughts openly and N

non-judgmentally is absolutely key to

preventing suicide and we really need to

moove the taboo around having these

conversations I think jamaa who shares

her story in in the in the report talks

about how having these conversations how

being able to be open with friends about

her experience of Suicidal Thoughts has

been the key to keeping herself safe um

and if you don't have someone to turn to

if we don't receive it with an openness

and a nonjudgment um we are putting

people at greater risk um and we know

that

um from our polling data that one in

five people um have experienced Suicidal

Thoughts in the last um f last five

years but only one in three of us feel

comfortable being part of a conversation

about suicidal thoughts and we really

need to improve our capability and our

confidence to be on the um receiving end

and the supporting end of those

conversations yeah absolutely and what

Jamila says is so powerful especially

about how when she's tried to talk about

these experiences it's met with a lot of

sort of she's met with feeling guilty or

or like she's the people she's speaking

to that feel like it's almost like she's

done something wrong which it's yeah

it's so inherent in all the language and

all everything so yeah talking about

them is so important but on the flip

side we have body bias which there's so

much conversation in the media social

media especially about bodies like like

tell us a little bit more about yeah

it's an interesting one cuz it is on the

flip side in terms of the volume of

dialogue and scrutiny that there is with

you verely out there as regards people's

bodies because obviously it's something

that we can visibly easily judge there

is so much judgment and there's so much

a bit like the Sham s parenting one

there's so much kind of sense there that

we can be whoever we want to be that we

can be whatever weight we want to be and

it's be interesting to see kind of how

the availability of drugs to help our

control our weight starts to shift kind

of dialogue around that um but this is

really about kind of that application of

judgment and norms and criticism of

people who fall outside of what's seen

as being desirable or healthy um

feasible even is and it's really then

about that s of complex and competing

set of cultural forces that infiltrate

our relationships with our bodies and

create those body size taboos this is

really strongly informed by social media

um and widely varying Norms in what

people see as feasible healthy and

desirable and there's just so much

judgment out there uh open judgment um

online and in real life yeah absolutely

and I think coming to our our last taboo

that we want to talk about tonight

similar to um silence suicidal thoughts

it's but also taking a little bit of

body bias there is so much

sensationalized coverage of ch or non-

recent sexual abuse um but a real death

of personal

interpersonal like in at the doctor any

those Services there's just a real lack

of provision a real dir of real

conversations around sex abuse and child

sexual abuse um tell us a little bit

more about that so I think that this

this too as as I said earlier was the

one that came up most highly in terms of

uncomfortable conversations and we see

that in the day it's one of the ones

that has got the lowest number of

conversations being had about it and

also the lowest level of confidence um

in speaking about it so I think only

about one in five people feel

comfortable having being part of a

conversation about um child sexual abuse

there is a real as Flo said there's a

lot of kind of like sensationalized

media coverage but very little provision

and support for the longlasting physical

and mental effects of um child sexual

abuse there is a real lack of

understanding of how to support and how

to involve um survivors of um child

sexual abuse in the creation provision

and dedication of services that can

support them with the lasting impacts um

there needs to be much more space for

all of us to be able to be part of those

conversations um and I think you were FL

you were going to share something from

our report there yeah I think sopia

um who shares a lot about her um kind of

approach to this as um sort of Joy

serious joy in in approach to talking

about this sheares a lot about her kind

of community and her experience of this

and how difficult it is to talk about

this and actually she feels like she's

has to look after the people that she's

trying to talk about when she talks

about this which is absolutely the

opposite of course is the way it should

be um so would really recommend reading

what she says because it's it's

incredibly important so before we wrap

up and we switch you guys over um is

there a couple of broader lessons or

takeaways from this last year of working

in Tabo and what we found in this report

to share yeah should I go first so

really it's about pausing and thinking

that everyone has a different set of

experiences a different

backstory experience es that we don't

know about inner Minds that we don't

know about and just pausing on our

Judgment of whatever we see presenting

itself in their attitudes their language

their behavior and bringing empathy so

really just creating that space for

empathy and compassion and not rushing

to judge not rushing to assume that they

come with the same kind of set of

circumstances and experiences and Views

that that we have um creating space for

getting it wrong there's you know this

Council culture out there there's so

much Judgment of people who just kind of

trip up a little bit see the the words

that are not quite the right words these

days that aren't kind of politically

correct um and that's that kind of of

course we need to have an expectation of

what it's okay to say but sometimes that

that kind of judgment that criticism of

of whether we're using the right words

or not can be really qu a bit too strong

and can stop us from speaking and can

lead us to being quick to judge others

for saying the wrong things when it's

not that they're coming with um any kind

of malice it's just that they don't know

necessarily what it's okay to say these

days and that changes vast um and if

you're not necessarily coming with

English as your first language or living

in um if you're speaking in a culture

that's not your own you know Norms can

differ and you may not have that

knowledge of what it's okay to say these

days and what it's not so creating that

space for others to kind of get it in a

ver commas wrong um with a and but also

not expecting that it's um for the

people who have experienced the issues

who are surviving the issues or have

survived the issues to educate you

having the willingness to educate

yourself which is kind of what we're

here for to help us all educate

ourselves um and then kind of opening up

the space um when someone gets it wrong

to um to kind of learn more and with

with curiosity and without judgment

thank you L I think yeah such a key

point is one of the things that we know

that perpetuates too the most is lack of

language and no one deserves to hear or

needs to hear things that you know are

phrased intentionally um to hurt but in

the same space the lack of language is

really stopping us from talking so how

do we get through that how do we get

past that Benji I know we're going to

talk about it in a little bit and your

things that you put out are so helpful

in this space um but it really does shut

down conversation a friend um recently

had an experience where she shared

the wrong terminology for talking about

suicide and she was coming at this from

a completely positive intent trying to

raise awareness and was shut down rather

harshly and then speaking to her

afterwards the reaction to that is well

I never ever want to talk about it again

for fear of getting it wrong and that's

just not helpful when we're trying to

talk about things more so it's a fine

line to tread but it's something we want

to talk about a little bit more yeah um

I think building on on that one of the

things that we've included in our report

at the end is a set of resources um that

not only about providing support for

people who are experiencing um these

taboos but also for

us and in general to better understand

and better equip ourselves with

knowledge around it so I would I would

encourage everyone to try to self

educate around these topics to try to

better equip ourselves there are loads

of really good resources is out there

across all of these topics the more we

learn the more we speak about them the

better we get and making mistakes is

part of that um but it is that's that's

why we talk about being comfortably

uncomfortable exact needs to be safe but

a little bit uncomfortable

exactly guys you've been amazing thank

you so much thank

[Music]

you sorry Beni it's a very torch

we do a little bit of musical chairs and

welcome Benji she's do you want me

to should keep the wine yeah keep the

wine put the phone

down it's the right choice okay welcome

Benji swivel

hi hello thanks for joining us thank you

for having me so Benji was at our most

recent event on the panel talking about

shameful sex which was fantastic couple

of wines then as well I did I love a

good wine all better better conversation

I think exactly um and you've also been

referenc in our report many times an

embarrassing amount of times we've

quoted you um because you're so

fantastic so thank you for joining would

you mind introducing yourself to Ron yes

hi my name is Benji pouna he him I am an

inclusion and well-being consultant

author and to content creator uh see you

may see my face on your fyp maybe if not

at benuzzi follow me um but yeah my

mission is to equip and Empower people

to make a positive difference so I do

that um via HR consultancy I do not

making Tik toks in my bedroom um by

doing a bit of writing doing a bit of

speaking and yeah that's me um visual

description I am uh black

bored uh like 511

um man um masculine

presenting um and I'm wearing a black

vest shirt it's a shirt but it's only

one button so it's a bit scandalous um

and some fabulous gold and black

trousers and some black shiny boots

that's me I was going to say at the

beginning it sounds like your hinge

profile so which is also live follow me

there I'm not joking

why you'll see why if you go and look at

and that not that profile the other

profile you'll see why we're so aligned

in the work that we're wanting to do

here so tell me a little bit about your

Reflections on the report what did you

what first came to your mind what what

kind of sparked for you um I think it

wasn't a surprise to me at all that body

siiz buys was on there I think one of

the things about getting older so I'm

turning 30 this year um and one of the

things about getting older is that

things come back again and I remember

you know I was um a teenager during like

the 2 early 2000s when finbow was a

thing Tumblr and like you know anorexia

on the catwalk and um none of those

things went away but you felt as if like

as Society we kind of decided that

actually that's not okay to promote and

and we knowledge how unhealthy um you

know body um you know restricted body

standards are and um we we have we

having conversation about disordered

eating and that sort of thing and and I

kind of iess naively thought that that

was that was it progress right and now

it's coming back again I'm some Trends

just shouldn't be coming back they

shouldn't but skinny jeans also

apparently coming back they right I

listen and I was a skinny jeans Queen so

I don't know I can put it off now so

please don't that back um but it's it's

really disheartening it's really really

disheartening to see but I'm really

really glad that it's in the report and

that you're talking about it because um

it's becoming so much more socially

acceptable to have um prejudices about

people's bodies and body sizes and body

types um today like more than ever

totally for sure and then I think the

other thing that I wanted to ask you a

little bit about was in our report we

found that silent Suicidal Thoughts was

really prevalent with men

and I know that's something in your work

that you've been kind of working on and

thinking

about yeah definitely um that was also

something that I I wasn't surprised

about um so as part of what I do I'm

really passionate about creating safe

spaces where people can um feel

psychologically safe and free to express

themselves you know how they wish um and

within those spaces um I I'm definitely

hearing specifically from I guess you

know because of my LIF experience myself

like from men right talking about how

they don't feel safe to express

themselves and um as somebody who not

only exists at an intersection um being

um a man who is black and queer but um

also explores intersections as part of

my work right as AFC he work across

intersections um there are so many

intersectional experiences of um you

know mental health struggles uh that we

just don't talk about enough m i I'm

such a shame that yans is not with us

because I know that she has so much

experience working in this space and

like mirrors what you saying and even

then and because she's working in so

many different cultures religions I like

in such a different type mix of

identities and I just wanted to bring up

a few things that she was going to share

which was really about how that is so

important culture intersectionality it's

vital cuz these taboos exist but they

are emphasized the pain is on another

level when kind of those aren't taken

into account 100% And especially when

the services you're looking to for help

don't have an understanding of where

you're coming from right and your

specific LIF experience um you know

speaking for myself um I am Gan by

ethnicity um and in in my culture and in

many similar cultures there are strong

gender Norms when it comes to

masculinity right and you know being a

man it's about being at the man of the

house and being strong and not showing

weakness and and I know that's like

prevent because lot of cult about

talking about my own personal experience

and I'm hearing from other people who

are similar to me and come from similar

cultures and there are so many Norms

that from the outside seem a bit strange

seem a bit weird why don't you just talk

about it or why don't you just reject

that or why don't you just and it's like

hearing people say that clear from a

position of just like ignorance can just

feel really invalidating and we need

more services um that are informed by

either Li experience or like education

right absolutely Louise I was going to

cut them to you on this point as well

yansy you know in our and and Sofia

actually both of them in the report

really call for specialized tailored

Services because they can make the

problem so much worse and I know that

there something you wanted to share

around that like gaslighting almost of

this yeah so really

um difficult thing that I hear parents

of kids with um special educational

needs talking about which is because a

lot of their challenges might live

behind closed doors you know you might

have children who mask in school which

is where they they try to present as

neurotypical um and the stress of that

builds up and they get home and then it

all kind of explodes because they've

been trying to cope in an environment

day-to-day that's not suited to them and

the number number of parents that then

have um challenges where they're just

disbelieved the issues that they're

experiencing in the home are disbelieved

and they're gaset as a result they're

kind of they're they're told us you know

your CH your child's coping fine and I

can't can't believe that they're doing

that and everything's okay if the child

seems to be coping it doesn't mean that

they actually are coping um and then

worse that parents in that situation can

then be blamed as if they're making it

up and scare and like trying to wangle

the system to get additional resources

and that's where there's some terrible

stuff in the media that kind of Paints

the picture of an increase in diagnosis

as being pushy parents trying to get the

best for their children and I mean it's

just obvious the rise in diagnosis

obvious to me anyway is not about people

just thinking it's trendy to get a

diagnosis of Dyslexia or ADHD there's

all sorts of reasons that are genuine

that those diagnoses are on the rise but

it's quite easy to kind of point the

finger and say we don't really believe

it because we don't see it and that kind

of gaslighting can just make the

difficulty of managing all the taboos

that's surround that issue and managing

the parenting experience infinitely

harder because you're the Judgment of

that is really kind of painful and then

you're not getting the support that you

need and that your child needs and

they're just being fundamentally let

down by the system M and I think it's

really interesting to hear you both talk

about kind of the services point because

it did come out really strongly as one

of the things that need to be changed to

help taboos especially these taboos

lesson and what we really wanted to do

in this second part of the panel was

here you've kind of presented you with

the problems and the taboos but also

just to talk a little bit about what

needs to change and what we want to see

change and what we can do about it so

you don't go away so dishearted and

you've got some things to do so homework

some homework go and look at Benji's

Channel um so yeah what are the kind of

things that you want to see change what

would help life you know be better for

people experiencing these

taboos um

you um I want us well to be honest I'm

kind of stealing your point um but like

I think I really resonated what you were

saying about not judging people who

don't necessarily know what the like

quote unquote correct thing is to say

and I want to go beyond that that and

say that I think we need to just sus

suspend judgment period or at least try

to when we're having these difficult

conversations I'm going to use body siiz

bias as an example there are so many

conversations that are happening right

now around uh medication that people are

using to resist the weight loss um like

a zic right that's the most popular one

um or the most like prevalent one people

are talking about and I think it's

totally fine for you to have your own

like opinions and perspectives

but just realize that there are

definitely people in your life who you

know very well not so well you work with

who are considering right or thinking

about you know um potentially like

looking into you know that sort of thing

or they have are having experiences

which you know are meaning that they are

facing prejudices or you know they have

a relationship to the topic right and we

need to be really really careful

therefore about how we talk about these

things to make sure we're not excluding

people who may need our support right

and may need us to be a safe space for

them and as much as possible I you know

you're entitled to your opinion but what

I always say is that like you know this

is kind of maybe my position but at the

same time I believe that everybody who

is um you know as part of this

conversation deserves empathy care and

compassion and especially those that I

care about right cuz I know people in my

personal life who have come to me and

been like you know I don't tell anybody

in our Wider Circle but I know that you

know you won't judge me and like I'm

thinking about doing this or I'm going

through that right um and having that

Lifeline is just so so important so that

that person doesn't feel like they don't

have anything to turn to and then um

they go down a rabbit hole and then kind

of their issues get worse yeah I think

to I think really at the moment we're

kind of encouraged to be One Polarized

opinion or the other but bring back

being on the fence you know just like

talking about holding two different

thoughts in your head we can all do it

we can all do it um okay and then I know

that you wanted to share a little bit

around

information and where we're getting our

information from and I feel like this is

such an important point to bring up now

especially when we're talking about

these yes definitely um I think it's

also just yeah really really important

to make sure that um we're being very

critical about you know our

sources um and that we are not uh I

guess like letting uh we're quite a

questioning our biases right um and

being self-critical about where the

information we're getting it's kind of

coming from what it's informed by as

well um especially on social media like

so many of these conversations are so

polarizing right intentionally so that's

what feeds the algorithm so let's try

our best to be critical um but also

let's try our best to um be continually

staying informed um I'm definitely a

proponent of that um and that's why I

make the content that I do uh because I

believe that education is a journey we

all should be continually self-educating

and um knowledge is power right um and

with knowledge and with the power that

knowledge provides

um we can make a a real huge difference

right um just even by being able to have

a to have these conversations right

increasing capacity to talk definitely

and I know well think talking about

social media I know that yansy was going

to reflect a little bit about the recent

news around kind of taking away

moderation from yeah Mets taking away

their moderation services and things

like that and it's such an interesting

point because you know there's spaces

online where Community has been found

and and that's really helpful for taboos

to find people talk about and if there

aren't any in your current Circle you

can find them somewhere

else how do we feel about this Louise I

know that there's something you wanted

to talk about in terms of this like lack

of change in moderation on social media

and how that can be a problem yeah I

mean I think it's really coming back to

the point about recognizing there's a

lot of misinformation out there and

there's a lot of sources out there that

might functionally help us my Educators

but how do they make us feel um and um

in the context of parenting issues

there's some really kind of good

resources out there that I can be

confident or well informed and support

me but

then they give me a picture of what is

aspirational or achievable and what I

should be doing and the emotional impact

of that isn't that helpful even though

the functionally the information is and

it was only speaking to one of my

therapists that um I realized that

actually some of these resources I need

to manage quite carefully and she said

to me this is making you feel really

guilty this is not maybe you need to

sort put this stuff to one side so

recognizing there's misinformation out

there and there's going to be more and

then recognizing the emotional impact of

the content that we are consuming as as

best we can and figuring out through

that how to moderate our consumption if

we need to and or how to search from

more diverse sources and and informed

perspectives and perspectives to your

point flow that kind of come down in the

middle there is so much polarization out

there and it's just getting worse isn't

it um sensationalized headlines um

perspectives on one end or the other and

that's kind of all that clickbaity stuff

in the media um so we need to figure out

our way through all of that yeah and and

not kind of fighting your own team as it

were I know Benji recently you had

something kind of in line with what

Louise was talking

about almost Council culture happening

on yeah I um I basically had I did a

video where I was talking about um what

we considered to be too smelly to eat in

the workplace quote unquote is informed

by cultural biases right um and I use an

example of like you know you might be

like oh you're like your serious to

smelly but if I was to cook like you

know a ton of bacon You' like oo nice

and it's

like um and right and I was and I

basically and I was basically like you

know it's not necessarily about the fact

that like um it should be a free-for all

in the office or in work places but

let's just be considerate and kind of

you know how we potentially might be

like excluding other people right with

our judgments on like food smells um and

I had a few comments from people saying

that I was being ableist um because they

have sensory needs which means that they

can't um be around s smells and I was

being exclusionary of of of you know of

their lived experience um and I I sat

with that um I'll be so transparent and

say that like when I get criticisms like

that um it does bruise my ego a bit

because of what I do do you know what I

mean and what I stand for right I'm like

oh my gosh um and I'm just being honest

like I'm a human being um but I sat with

it and I reflected and I was

like no I'm right I'm correct um and not

only am I correct I think it's really

important for me to do a follow up where

I assert that um and you and you know

why because I really feel like it it

goes against the interests of inclusion

and Equity if people feel that they can

Center their own LIF experience to the

point where they're being exclusion of

other people the post that I made was

not exclusionary I was just making a

point right you could have maybe been

like oh hey by the way I have this

experience um and so we need to

accommodate that also right but to like

silence what I said you to use your

lived experience silence what I said

it's like not okay and so yeah I did

another post you know in response um and

I think really people really appreciated

that I stood my ground on that um in a

way that was it wasn't you know it

wasn't dismissive it was just kind of

asserting their point and kind of an

interest of inclusion so I still like to

say I think it's really important that

like and I think that quote is in the

report like to make a change to make a

difference son you have to be disruptive

I always say I'm not a nice person I'm a

kind person period right um I'm

abrasive um I'm loud look at these

trousers no I'm shy um but sometimes you

you need to be and in all seriousness in

terms of you know talking about tackling

taboos right sometimes you need to you

stick your neck out a bit right to make

a change it is scary though it is so

much easier said than done to say look

we all know that it's uncomfortable to

talk about this but actually the

discomfort is feeding this taboo making

it worse and worse and worse but it's so

much easier said than done just to say

go and talk about it so I don't know it

is something that we need to to do and

especially if you're a person who's

coming from a place where you aren't

going to face the same penalty for

talking about things that others might

it's even more important for you to be

talking about these things 100% And like

privilege using your privilege is so

huge if you have um if you know aspect

of your identity or background which

means that you don't necessarily face um

you know a certain issue right other

people are facing that is an opportunity

right for you to use that extra comfort

that affords you right that space that

affords you to say something right and

and face like less risk for doing so

right less repercussions so definitely

do that but also what you mentioned

about it being easier than done 100% but

you know what helps knowing you're not

alone right when I hit like send on that

post I was pring it I can't lie like I I

mean you know I said what I said so

period right I was always going to stand

by it but a part of me was like oh gosh

I'm going to face backlash um and every

every like of every comment every share

every DM that I got from people from

people who follow me and stuff being

like thank you so much I felt more

emboldened I felt more empowered and we

can recreate that feeling amongst

ourselves right Community Support is so

huge it's so massive and it's a solution

to the problems that we are facing in

society today right um it's so much

easier to fix these things when we are

standing together that sounds so corny

but it's true it's true it is and it's

like go back to the point of a stat that

we had in our report six in 10 people

are experiencing these taboos and that's

just four

subjects yeah yeah and I just think they

we're so quick to just building what

Benji was saying we're so quick to kind

of apply our own experience and our

perspective to the content that we see

on social media and sort of and troll

people and say negative things and just

kind of put ourselves into what what

they're saying and what they've

experienced so as soon as we need to

check our privilege and check our own

position and the biases that we're

bringing I also think in all of this

there's room for a bit humor sometimes

and just sort of humor can really help

cut through some you know many taboos in

all sorts of different ways and

sometimes we just we're so quick to

judge that we don't take humor and

light-hearted content for what it is we

just want to kind of find a way to make

a point absolutely and we have something

in our kind of like how to talk about

taboos that is we welcome human not to

laugh off things not to use it to escape

the conversation but to yeah to bring

and Sophia's methodology in bringing joy

to these subjects is so important and I

hope that we do that in our events and

when we talk about things we don't want

it to feel heavy and and dark so yeah

totally I think maybe it's time for a

Q&A if there are any what do we think

cat swap with me and I'll see if anybody

has any questions but first thank you so

much to all the amazing

panelists all right we we've got a

question back here okay I'm

coming oh thank you Mike um firstly

thank you so much this has been super

interesting it's the first time I've

been to one of these events um my name's

Emma and um this is maybe like quite a

hard question to answer and a bit of a

sweeping question but it's what I was

thinking about I think as I was

listening to you all talk um and it's

about kind of I guess balancing

protecting people who have um

experienced some of these difficult

subjects that we're talking about I'm

especially thinking about child sexual

abuse while also like opening up the

conversation and and and kind of um

broadening the discussion like we've all

all been talking about um it made me

think of like two two recent things um

myself and my colleague here are working

with Rape Crisis at the moment and we we

literally had a session today where um

someone who works in one of their local

centers shared with us that they um kind

of very quietly brand their service like

they almost hide The Branding of their

service um so that people feel

comfortable to walk through the door and

so that people members of the community

almost don't know it's there um and it

also made me think of an example that I

heard about in the press this week about

um Scotland legalizing um safe use drug

rooms um which also are being kind of

hidden in communities so that you know

people who live down the road don't know

they're there so I guess my question is

like how do we balance kind of

protecting and

safeguarding um people with while also

opening up the conversation and reducing

the kind of taboos around some of these

subject

matters thanks Emma um great great

question and I think one that we've come

across a lot in in our work on Tab and

developing services for taboos I think

that one of the key things is that it's

really important and it's in one of our

um how to talk about too's principle is

the right to respect people's privacy

and that while these topics are taboo um

we shouldn't be expecting people who are

living with the taboos to be having to

feel exposed in accessing services or to

feel vulnerable um in in finding that

that support um so I think that's

absolutely there are lots of spaces

where taboo services are being provided

in a respectable way that um gives

people dignity and gives them a safe

space to um to to find the right support

for them um I think also in in the the

conversations particularly around

something like um child child sexual

abuse it's important not to expect

anyone to share more than they feel

comfortable with the purpose of becoming

better at talking about taboos is not so

that we can all spend loads of time

going into personal details and talking

about these topics it's about the

empathy and non-judgment um around them

I do think that and one of the things

that one of the experts um spoke to

about around um some of the challenges

around um privacy and services not not

necessarily in the topics your talking

about um but this was particularly

related to um products related to anal

Health um were that if there's not much

conversation and people are buying

products they could very well be

treating the wrong problem um or not

getting the health care that they need

because there becomes a service or a

product that feeds off the toness of the

pro the product so I think it's a really

fine line between never expecting anyone

who has experienced a taboo to have to

relive that or to not have access to a

safe and taboo informed and Trauma

informed space but also over time making

sure that we are all the healthc Care

Professionals that people um working in

offices in communities that we are all

better at having these conversations so

that we can provide the space for people

to explore and understand their

experiences yeah I just think to build

on that quickly um many tabos will have

specific considerations around the kinds

of ways that we might best navigate

discussions around them but the reason

we exist is because we can learn from

principles around talking about any

given taboo and apply that to many

others so the more we can equip

ourselves to have uncomfortable

conversations to get more comfortable

with those the better any of us can

navigate being the recipient of a

conversation about something very very

difficult like child sex abuse without

even necessarily always having to be

going about going around and talk about

that issue it's about equipping

ourselves to have conversations about

difficult topics like that and applying

general principles around non-judgment

empathy compassion kindness

better do you want to

try to to more sensitively respond

whatever comes up

got another question yeah hi um I'm Tama

she her um also I apologize in advance

if this is like lightly incoherent if I

had a lot more time to think of how to

phrase this it would probably be better

um but I've had like five

minutes so I was thinking and like I

guess my thoughts kind of kept coming

around um to this throughout the

conversations um about how Central the

the feelings like the raw emotions of

fear and shame are to the existence of

tabos um and the perpetuation of tabos

um and how you know to a certain extent

and this is by the way not a roast on

all of us in the room but to a certain

extent we're all preaching to the choir

here right because the type of person

who would come to this kind of event is

the type of person who's you know at

least somewhat at home with the feeling

of discomfort and and working through

the feeling of fear working through the

feeling of Shame and being really

willing to sit with that and be

reflexive um so kind of

when we're talking about you know

breaking down taboos the kind of Crux of

the issue lies with the people who

aren't doing that and who don't want to

do that um or who would have you know so

much difficulty with that um so I'm

wondering kind of what your thoughts are

on that because I think that there's so

much there's so many reasons right why

someone might not want to be confronting

tabos maybe because it doesn't feel safe

for them you know normativity is safe

and and kind of pushing against that can

feel very scary or very you know maybe

they'd have to kind of confront their

own feelings of Shame about certain

things maybe there's cultural norms as

you as you had kind of alluded to

earlier there so there's a billion

reasons why people might not be kind of

willing to engage with this but when

we're talking about the perpetuation of

Tabo kind of that's that's one of the

big hurdles right um so yeah I just

wanted to kind of get your thoughts on

you know how how does this Outreach go

further right than the circle of people

who are already wanting to talk about

these things

thank you oh sorry I was just going to

say your your point is probably similar

to what Louise's point last year she

made that it's something that we talk

about all the time because you say as

you say everybody who comes is coming

because yeah they're up for it so how do

we make it go further and it's something

we think about all the time so thank you

for prompting it

again um yeah um I'll be quick but um I

think for me it's about modeling

vulnerability and I think that all of us

in this room can you know go off and

become yeah role models of vulnerability

right because things when you are

vulnerable you allow people the

opportunity to then feel like they can

be vulnerable too and you sp about shame

and you know the opposite of Shame is is

pride right um and so if you the best

way to kind of drown out shame is to try

and encourage people to be proud more

proud and you can start yourself right

so if you are comfortable with talking

about taboo topics whether it's these

ones or other ones you know obviously

being sensitive to who's around you and

you know make sure it's save space and

you know you'll be considerate but try

your best to be proactive about how you

talk about these things right and show

that not only you're comfortable having

such conversations but also you are very

comfortable engaging with other people's

you know experiences with these topics

right um and so that's what I would say

I would say like be a role model of

vulnerability yeah I would also

challenge ourselves to think about

whether or not we are always talking as

much as we we may be behind um and fully

bought into it um but I share one

experience from one of last year's

taboos um and one from this year's um I

we've just been doing a project um with

B bab on bowel taboos um and one of our

taboos from last years was unruly bowels

and I have ulcerative colitis and I

realized this week like oh I've been

having a really tough time for the last

month and I've not told anyone who I'm

working with that I'm struggling and

we're doing a project on it and we're

looking at conversation like trying to

encourage people to have conversations

about their poo and oh oh I've forgotten

to do it so like it is it is possible to

do it and the same um with suicidal

thoughts of this was for a number of

years ago years ago met a friend who was

struggling um with uh back pain

struggling with uh

sleeplessness um struggling with with

childhood trauma and lots of things that

made her more vulnerable and I didn't

ask and I do think that and I've seen

that more recently with a similar thing

around Suicidal

Thoughts I think I think that even those

of us we definitely do need to go

further we do need to get braver in

having these conversations

but I would also challenge all of us to

think about how much we are talking

about these in our day-to-day life and

when we're still holding back because I

think we're making we are making

progress and a lot of us bought into it

but there's still conversations that

we're not

having we have one over here thank

you um hello first of all thank you so

much it's just been super interesting um

my name is Amanda I'm a social

researcher and campaign strategist and a

lot of the work I do is in like narra

change so I was um really interested

listening to you about and thinking

about you know the title talking to

booze around how much of this is um

about encouraging kind of small group

and individual interaction versus um and

I'm sure you've probably thought about

this but you know the the power of um

like storytelling and cultural

narratives to kind of seed some of this

change that we're looking for in kind of

bringing some of these taboos into the

light and you know thinking particularly

about how these ideas and taboos are

dealt with in uh popular culture and the

media and music TV film you know

particularly and you know I think it's

really interesting when you see not only

how an individual tells their story but

how other people react or don't react to

it and how sometimes that can also

enable taboo to be brought into the

light you know sometimes thinking about

how um what was I I was watching like a

sitcom the other day where you know all

of the gay characters in the uh cast

while that was once considered a Taboo

it's not now anymore in society

considered to Taboo and they talked

about the make of that show and how they

wanted none of the characters in that

world to re actually react to anyone's

sexuality so yeah I wondered like how

much of your i' I'm excited to see the

report and I wondered how much of that

is going to kind of talk about how we

can kind of scale up I guess yeah the

the impact of these

insights um I think it's I think it's

all of that um I think there's a real

power in that narrative change those

bigger picture kind of pieces that help

us shift how we talk about and think

about taboos but it's also the little

everyday things just as catw is

describing and the Ripple effects of

those and I go back to that point that

Flo was making about um somebody who

felt kind of shut down from talking

about suicide because they said what was

deemed to be the wrong thing think about

what could have happened if they had

felt empowered and comfort to keep

talking about it think about the impact

of not talking about it little things

like from one interaction um you you

lose that opportunity for a ripple

effect so I think it's the little

day-to-day things and how they scale up

and how they kind of stretch um from

those of us who are here and most

comfortable with that fear and shame and

stigma um and cascading that out towards

those who are least comfortable but I

think it's also about those kind of yeah

bigger picture kind of shifts and more

cohesive kind of gear change through

narrative

change yeah changeing narrative is huge

something I always talk about and this

is like a Shad experience for many many

uh queer people but um I remember like

watching TV with my parents and there be

like a a gay kiss and my mom would leave

the room you know or my dad would go on

like a rant about you know how all gays

are going to hell and then I'd be sat

there like oh gosh right um even before

I even knew that I was gay but I knew I

was different right um and I had this

Instinct that oh gosh like you know I

wasn't really truly loved by my parents

right um but then fast forward um I was

uh I was at a an evening event um and I

may have had a few wines uh and someone

came up to me in the bathroom and they

were like oh are you Benji from social

media and I was like yeah yeah I am and

they were like oh my gosh like you have

made me be feel so proud to be black and

and gay and I that literally touched me

I was crying in the bathroom maybe it

was the wine maybe it

wasn't but like I I say that to say that

I think having positive representation

and positive narratives is so so

important and um we really indicate how

we feel about things in really subtle

ways that we don't necessarily think

about you know so how you react to um

celebrities right and stories in the

press and how you talk about them people

are listening right um how you talk

about reality TV and the stories that

happen on there like you know who who

you think is the villain who you think

is the hero of the story right all these

things are kind of kind of be informed

by biases we need be checking ourselves

right what were you putting out there is

it affirming and oppressive narrative or

is it challenging the status

quo all right any more

questions raise your hand don't be shy

we've got one back

here hi um one thing I was thinking

about is um how taboos sometimes kind of

arise because people just like genuinely

don't care um or just aren't interested

sometimes they arise because people are

people have like such good intentions

that they're scared if someone brings up

to them they're scared to like say the

wrong thing so they might just change

the subject which is equally hurtful but

um as sort of saying the wrong thing or

even maybe more hurtful than than

changing the topic sorry than than

saying the wrong thing but um one thing

as like like to hear you guys reflect on

is how

um how like it feels to be on both sides

of that conversation things for people

to sort of keep in mind um things for

people to sort of like try to yeah like

to to keep in mind on both sides of that

conversation

basically I think I think one thing to

remind people of and we' we we see it in

the date that we have in the report of

just how many people are affected and so

I think often um some of these topics

are dismissed as being quite Niche or

quite small kind of and that's used as a

powerful way to kind of say oh it's not

that important I learn about it because

it's not it's not that big and actually

when we look at the intersectionality of

taboos and the experiences there is a

real there's a there's a big hidden part

of taboos and so equipping ourselves and

understanding it better um is is more

important because people that we know

and care about are affected by these

even if if we don't know um and I think

that there are there's the as you say

the difference between not caring so how

do we make sure that someone does does

care or not knowing and that's the the

self-education piece as

well not I'm not sure what to add to

that it's really

good yeah we've got some back

here we've got a I've got one right

here hello oh hi my name is cloudia um

I'm a psychotherapist so I'm very

interested in most of the uh subjects

and I work very closely with a lot of

them I've been working the past 15 years

with gender-based uh violence survivors

so uh but my point is i i i i r a bit

late so I'm not sure if you've spoken

about it the beginning but I was just

curious to know what's going to happen

with this support in the sense of it's

really important to have those

conversations I think more than anything

uh the importance of breaking taboos is

also creating uh Community around to

speak because taboos isolate and what we

need to break isolation is actually to

create community so I was just curious

if this report gets somehow sent to any

you know uh uh place or any that would

actually uh motivate or create the

conversations or the the even education

right schools hospitals all those points

that you mentioned the doctors need to

be more aware of those issues and so on

yeah thank you it it's a it's a great

point and I think that um something that

we as a small charity and as a charity

that focuses on different taboos each

year one of the key things that we do

with this report is we then run an event

around each of those taboos in which we

bring together different perspectives

and we go into each Taboo in much more

depth we bring bring to life um

experiences expertise um we are also

trying to get more kind of coverage of

the report this year and trying to get

it more kind of publicized and and out

there so that people are aware of the

work that we're doing um and then also

through the work that we do either as

talking to Boos or as common Collective

which is the um trading arm of talking

to Boos and we work on projects um we're

trying to to kind of find ways of

partnering with other organizations that

are working um in these spaces so um we

have done projects on um Suicide

Prevention we're doing project at the

moment um with um bab um so we tried to

kind of like further our work through

those places we would love to have more

opportunity for influence for more kind

of championing and working um with um

communities to make sure that survivors

also have their experiences heard um

we're still quite a small charity um so

hopefully um but come to our events um

next year in in this year this year with

the events um and be part of those

conversations because I think those

events are much more kind of open and

deep dive discussions into the

particular taboos um so this is really

just the beginning of the work this year

but just to add like we're open to

suggestions as a as a small Char to

limit our resources there's so much more

that we could do than we're able to do

at the moment but very open to any

connections ideas creative thoughts that

you have around how we might expand our

reach as we deep dive into each of these

tabos another question here um yeah hi

um been to all your events they're great

thanks um I was just wondering if

there's anything in the report around

like a gender split and talking about

things and whether like some genders

find it more uh difficult than others

cuz looking around the room like don't

want to assume anyone's gender or

anything but um seems to be like quite

you know unbalanced so I was just

wondering if like that's something

that's come up

yeah so I think there definitely were

some differences in gender in the in the

data um and certainly around um say too

like body bias but I think it would be I

think one of the things that we really

want to work on as a charity is make

sure that these um conversations aren't

exclusive to to to particular agendas

and also that we don't um apply

assumptions or stereotypes to taboos as

to who is affected um for example with

the the Suicidal Thoughts um there are

different barriers and different

experiences that that that different

genders May face um around it but in

terms of experience of those thoughts

it's actually there's there's it's

experienced AC cross genders um so I

think that they definitely there there

may well be more of an openness towards

kind of having the conversations the

more kind of like interest in terms of

attend attending these types of events

um but I would I I think of often the

kind of balance across genders in terms

of um experience of the taboos is is

defin definitely

there um and just to kind of second that

I think that is really what

intersectionality is actually about it's

not necessarily about you know pitting

different experiences against each other

right or saying one is worse or it's

just that it's just different right so

um when we're thinking about section of

um you know science suicid of thoughts

and you know um women right there are

certain barriers and certain experiences

certain issues it's a specific

conversation right when we're talking

about the section of you know that

experience and and being a man there are

certain issues and certain experience

and like we're not saying I don't think

it's helpful to be like one is more

important than the other or like we

should focus on one of the other

necessarily right um it's about

understanding that actually those are

very specific conversations that that

kind of need to happen equally

and I think one of the organizations

that we spoke to in feeding into the

report was an organization called future

men of which yansy who couldn't be here

this evening um but is a a trustee as as

well and I think that there are it is

important to take into account those

factors in in it but as as Benji says

it's it's about making space for not

assuming or not not kind of perpetuating

stereotypes around particular um topics

and I think it is a particular thing

that the media loves to do

generalizations or be very kind of like

focused on particular um presentations

of of these taboos and I think when when

you look at at at experiences it can be

much much broader and much more diverse

than we think sry just a final little

bit on that just a bug bear of mine I

hate the fact that like in the media um

a lot of people only talk about men's

mental health when it's in response to

women talking about their mental health

well mental issues that going going

through it's such a b bug bear of mine

cuz it does such a disservice right to

the issues that you know men do go

through when it comes to mental health

and well-being so yeah it shouldn't be a

tip for

T thank you for all your amazing

questions so far I think we've got time

for one more if there was anybody who

had got one right back here hello thank

you very much for a fascinating

conversation this evening uh I'm also a

researcher and over the years have

researched gender based violence and and

spoken to survivors many times about

bringing to life their

experiences but I've also conducted a

lot of research with perpetrators of

sexual violence including um in prisons

with people convicted of sexual violence

um people who have contacted helplines

such as stop it now who are concerned

about their sexual interest in children

so I guess my perhaps very challenging

sort of question at the end is think

about do we have limits to our empathy

because these people the perpetrators

are also people and are often very

vulnerable people and we like to kind of

paint the drivers of pain the drivers of

these these situations as monsters but

like they're not they're humans who also

may be experiencing some of these issues

um they often are say very vulnerable

they're someone's son or daughter so I

think the the kind of the question I say

is how much can we push ourselves into

these tabos and have kind of empathy for

people on that side of the spectrum

where like they're actually perpetrating

some of these situations um I think we

should personally have empathy but as a

society do we do we feel there's kind of

limit to empathy where there's almost a

conditionality based on people's

behaviors or or do we need to make sure

there are no limits to that empathy and

how we really see people as as people

whatever they've they've actually

done I do I'm just wondering if there's

something in your book um that kind of

might provide an angle on that thinking

about kindness and

the best I can sort of think of as a

response to that brilliant question is I

I go back across a lot of this to the

fact that to many difficult topics we

come with a set of assumptions that

people who do difficult things who do

unpleasant things who do things that are

outside of the norm of socially

acceptable behavior are bad and we don't

think about the backstories that they

have the experiences that they have have

now in or in the past the the issues

that they're dealing with and and that

limits our scope for empathy because to

your point people who perpetrate some

terrible crimes

um why have they got there well they've

probably got there because they've had

very complex and difficult upbringing

and set of

circumstances um so I'm not sure this

answers your question but I think there

is something around pausing and

recognizing that we don't know people's

Back stories we don't know what's going

on inside their minds we don't know the

circumstances that have brought them to

where they are and having just some

sense sense check around

that yeah um so my book hope this helps

how to be kind to yourself and others um

might help you uh with this topic but um

yeah do you know what I'm going to use

like an anergy off top of my head right

it's it's kind of a bit like um who seen

Wicked we seen Wicked yeah um loved it

give synthia rivo all the things all the

things um but that whole story is about

like our people is anyone born but evil

right and we delve into the backstory of

the wicked witch and you know and the

whole idea is that you know she was

conditioned to be that way right um and

that movie is amazing and the story is

amazing but contextually we are ready to

receive that story because we've heard

about Dorothy right we know the story of

Dorothy right there's been so many

iterations of that movie and um everyone

knows her her her about her lived

experience and what she went through in

NX YZ and I'm saying that to say I think

it's really important to recognize that

everyone as a human being we all

products of how we were raised and

things that we've been through and that

means that ultimately we can be be put

in a position where we do harm others

right um either unint ition Al or

intentionally because you know we just

you know that's just kind of where we're

at at that point right and it's really

important that we see the humanity in

each and every one of us it's really

important that we try our best to do so

but there is also a time and place for

that you know um it it's not in every

situation that we need to be seeing both

sides right we need to be really

sensitive in how and when we do that

right TR I use that example it's like we

are now ready to learn about alphab

story because we've already known about

D's story so there's balance there

another example I'll give is that like

you know if I've experien if I've

experienced a microaggression in the

workplace and a racist one um you know

the person who did that might not have

meant it and they may be really upset

and sorry about it but you know the inst

the first reaction shouldn't be to be

like oh you know did Janet mean it the

first reaction should be is Benji okay

right and after I'm okay oh then we we

humanize Janet we think about how you

know what's her Learning Journey from

you know from then on so I think time

and place is really important yeah I I

think that I think absolutely right and

I think that the similar to your point

about kind of pitting narratives against

each other of we need to create safe

spaces for conversations about taboos

that are um that have a real focus and

it's one of the things that we've we've

found a lot in in our work is that

finding finding the right Focus for a

taboo that we are working on making

space for that making space for people

with lived experience of that to share

their experiences there certainly are

taboos that are related to harmful

behaviors um that may well come up in in

in future years I think for the for the

taboo that we're talking about this year

it's very much focused on Surviving

child sexual abuse and it's for from the

taboo that we're focusing on is more

about um the services and support for

survivors of of child sexual abuse but I

totally take on board your point and the

the need for us to understand and be

more aware of these taboos as a society

so that we can be more preventative and

more proactive in the support so that

less people face harm that's caused by

the Tabo so there's there are taboos um

in on in multiple ways related to that

but for for this year we're we're

focusing on um the experience of

surviving child sexual

abuse well I just want to say thank

sorry I'm in the wrong side of the room

um I just wanted to say thank you so

much to all your questions they're

really really interesting and always

give us such great food for thought

about how we can learn and grow but I

also want to say thank you so much to

our amazing panel who've answered all of

those with such Amazing Grace and

insight and talked through all of these

uh difficult topics so round of applause

please and I'd love to invite you to

carry on the conversation input your

taboos that you want to be uh the report

next year and come to our events and

something else I've forgotten cat I was

just going to say so the report will be

online it is online it is online amazing

so Flo has amazing to have done that

while we've been here this evening um so

please go and read the report it's got

lots of information data resources um in

there and she sadly wasn't able to be

here this evening she's done her back in

um but Amanda who's our amazing um

designer and has made I mean we are we

are so lucky to have her work on this um

on on the report and more broadly with

the charity she's just incredible so um

please dive in and read the beautiful

and uh rich in content report absolutely

and thank you all for coming thank you

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
taboo /təˈbuː/ B1	noun - a social or cultural prohibition or restriction on certain behaviors, topics, or practices, often considered sensitive or inappropriate.
uncover /ʌnˈkʌvər/ B1	verb - to reveal or expose something previously hidden or unknown.
awareness /əˈwɛr.nəs/ B1	noun - knowledge or perception of a situation or fact.
deflate /diːˈfleɪt/ B2	verb - to reduce or lessen the impact or intensity of something.
minimize /ˈmɪnəˌmaɪz/ B2	verb - to reduce something to the smallest possible amount or degree.
impact /ˈɪm.pækt/ B1	noun - the effect or influence of one thing on another.
harm /hɑːm/ A2	noun - physical or emotional injury or damage.
excited /ɪkˈsaɪtɪd/ A2	adjective - feeling happy and enthusiastic about something.
uncomfortable /ʌnˈkʌm.fər.tə.bəl/ A2	adjective - causing or feeling unease or awkwardness.
conversations /kən.vɚˈseɪ.ʃənz/ A1	noun - a talk between two or more people.
stigma /ˈstɪɡ.mə/ B2	noun - a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance, quality, or person.
prevalent /ˈprɛvələnt/ B2	adjective - widespread and common.
awareness /əˈwɛr.nəs/ B1	noun - knowledge or perception of a situation or fact.
comfortability /kəmˌfɔr.təˈbɪl.ɪ.ti/ C1	noun - the state of being comfortable or at ease.
intersectional /ˌɪntərˈsɛkʃənəl/ C1	adjective - relating to or involving the interaction of different social identities or categories.

Key Grammar Structures

• we must have done something right next last year

  ➔ Present Perfect

  ➔ The phrase uses the present perfect tense with 'must have done' to express a past action with present relevance, indicating a conclusion drawn from recent events.

• hopefully you'll have us back next year too

  ➔ Future with 'will'

  ➔ The sentence uses 'will' to express a future action or hope, indicating a desire for a future event.

• coming to an event that promises to make you feel uncomfortable is a hard sell

  ➔ Gerund

  ➔ The phrase uses the gerund 'coming' as the subject of the sentence, emphasizing the action of attending the event.

• we exist to kind of uncover um and understand and raise awareness of different taboo subjects

  ➔ Infinitive of Purpose

  ➔ The sentence uses the infinitive of purpose 'to uncover' to express the reason for the organization's existence.

• it's really important to have these kind of conversations because they do deflate and minimize the impact and the harm that taboo subjects can cause

  ➔ Subordinating Conjunction

  ➔ The sentence uses the subordinating conjunction 'because' to introduce a reason for the importance of the conversations.

• last year was fantastic it was really exciting we had our first ever today's Tabo launch

  ➔ Past Simple

  ➔ The sentence uses the past simple tense to describe completed actions in the past, such as 'was fantastic' and 'had our first ever launch'.

• trying to find out what subjects people don't want to talk about and then asking them to talk about is a little bit tricky

  ➔ Gerund Phrase

  ➔ The phrase uses a gerund phrase 'trying to find out' as part of the sentence, emphasizing the action of attempting to discover something.

• we added expert interviews to our methodology with a particular focus of people working in health inequalities

  ➔ Prepositional Phrase

  ➔ The sentence uses a prepositional phrase 'with a particular focus of' to specify the emphasis of the expert interviews.

• we chose two that came up most highly on most uncomfortable which was child sexual abuse and suicidal thoughts

  ➔ Relative Clause

  ➔ The sentence uses a relative clause 'which was child sexual abuse and suicidal thoughts' to provide additional information about the topics chosen.

• there is a real lack of understanding of how to support and how to involve um survivors of um child sexual abuse in the creation provision and dedication of services

  ➔ Infinitive Phrase

  ➔ The sentence uses infinitive phrases 'to support' and 'to involve' to describe the actions needed to address the lack of understanding.