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Another two prisoners have been released

by accident from a prison in the UK.

This after an enhanced regime was meant

to be in place to stop it happening

again after an earlier mistaken release

of a high-profile prisoner. And also

this news emerged in a very dramatic way

in the middle of Prime Minister's

questions at Westminster, which was

actually deputy prime minister's

questions today. We'll discuss

everything that's going on in this

latest episode of the BBC's daily news

podcast, Newscast.

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio

and shortly I'll be joined by the former

John Lewis boss Charlie Mayfield to talk

about the huge number of people who are

missing from the workforce because of

ill health and crucially what as a

nation we have to do about it. But first

of all, it was a very intriguing prime

minister's questions today at lunchtime

in Westminster. It's Wednesday after

all. Well, first of all, it was deputy

prime minister's questions because it

was David Lammy, the DPM, facing James

Cartage, the shadow defense secretary.

And James Cartage basically asked

variations of the same question five

times to David Lambie. Here is one of

those iterations. I'm asking him a

straight question and I'm going to

repeat it once more for the avoidance of

doubts because he didn't answer it

twice.

>> It's he's he's here to answer questions.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Can he reassure the house

that since Kabatu was released, no other

asylumseeking offender has been

accidentally let out of prison? It's a

clear question. Can he give an answer?

>> Deputy Prime Minister,

>> get a grip, man. I know I'm the justice

secretary. That's why I'm at the

dispatch box, also as deputy prime

minister. We know that.

>> It then emerged during that session of

prime minister's question time that

somebody had been released by accident.

a convicted sex offender, although he

wasn't an asylum seeker, but he was a

foreign national who should have been

being deported. And then a short while

later on Wednesday, we discovered a

second prisoner had been released by

mistake from the same prison, HMP

Wsworth. So, there's a lot going on

here, a lot to unpick. In a moment,

we'll be joined by Chris Mason from

Westminster, who can tell us the

political ramifications and also just

the slightly weird way that all of this

emerged in the House of Commons in real

time. But first of all, let's get some

of the details as we understand them as

we're recording this episode of Newscast

just after 6 p.m. on Wednesday. from

friend of Newscast Danny Shaw who is a

home affairs observer, former adviser to

the shadow home secretary Ivette Cooper

when Labour were in opposition and

before that an old colleague of mine at

the BBC where he was a home affairs

correspondent. Hi Danny.

>> Good evening Adam. Hi. Good to be back

with you.

>> Well, I'm glad you said good evening

because that gives me an excuse to say

it is 12 minutes past 6 on Wednesday.

So, as we're talking now, this is the

picture as we understand it. So, we've

got two prisoners released in error from

the same institution. Um, talk me

through what we know about the first of

those.

>> So, the first one that we know about is

a man called Brahim Kador Sharif. Uh,

he's an Algerian man. He's 24 years of

age and the key fact is that he

shouldn't have been released from

Onsworth prison, but he was. Um he was

released by mistake on Wednesday of last

week.

Uh but the Metropolitan Police was only

informed about it uh yesterday, Tuesday.

>> Uh and yesterday evening, we understand

that David Lammy, the Justice Secretary

and Deputy Prime Minister, was told

about this mistaken release from Wsworth

Prison. the details as to why he was

released and what exactly uh he was in

custody for are still coming in. I've

got to say they're sort of coming in in

dribbs and drabs and there's a bit of a

little bit of passing the buck or you

know one agency or one government

department saying no we can't confirm

that you have to go to the Metropolitan

Police and another agency saying no

that's not for us which I think tells

you everything you need to know about

the system and how unjoined up it is and

why these mistakes continue to happen.

So that's the first one that we've heard

about and potentially the most serious

because he is an Algerian man who is

essentially subject to deportation and

should probably have been removed from

the country 5 years ago when his visa

expired. The other um prisoner who was

released from error from Wsworth prison

was a man called William Smith. um he

was let out on uh Monday and he is um a

convicted fraudster. We are told that he

was released in error because the court

um that uh had sentenced him said that

he'd been given a suspended sentence um

when in fact he'd been given a custodial

sentence. Um a clerical error was made.

Uh it was corrected but the correction

was sent to the wrong person. And so you

know all that happened is that on prison

didn't know that he was actually about

to be jailed and in fact they thought

he'd been suspended so they released

him. So there was a mistake there from

the court.

>> And so if we go back to Ibrahim Kadur

Sharif I mean the first thing that jumps

out at me is that he was released on a

day when we were meant to have had an

enhanced process for checking that

people weren't being released by

mistake. having the whole big saga of

the the the the um foreign national who

was released the week before.

>> Yeah. I mean this this is what's this is

what's so embarrassing about the whole

uh scandal is that uh we had the Hades

Kabati case um the Ethiopian man who um

had committed sex offenses and uh that

had all sparked problems at the Bell

Hotel in Eping. He had been sentenced.

He should have been subject to

deportation, removed to an immigration

center. He wasn't. He was released in

error by Kilmsford prison, recaptured 48

hours later. David Lammy, the justice

secretary, stood up in the House of

Commons and said, "This is terrible.

I've ordered an inquiry and by the way,

I've introduced the most stringent

checks on releases of prisoners and

particularly releases of foreign

national offenders. There'll be a new

checklist that the prison authorities

will have to go through before they

release someone. and also a deputy

governor of every prison will oversee

the release of foreign national

offenders. Those checks were meant to be

went were meant to come into play on

Monday of last week. And then on

Wednesday, we learned that this man,

Brahim Kador Sharif, an Algerian man um

an Algerian foreign offender with a a

criminal record, a quite lengthy

criminal record by all accounts, and a

sex offender who was on the sex

offender's register had been freed in

error. I mean, it is It is frankly just

it's beyond belief that that could

happen. And you know where the mistake

lies you know I don't know whether it's

at ons with prison whether it's other

links in the chain whether it's courts

whether it's in the immigration system I

don't know but it just you know it's the

kind of thing Adam um that does lead to

resignations and dismissals of

ministers. I I I'm not calling for that,

but it's the sort of error when it comes

on top of, you know, a a previous

egregious error that does lead to to

people having to leave government

because of it.

>> And Danny, I know you got to go in a few

minutes, but Chris Mason has just

arrived at Westminster. Hello, Chris.

>> Hello, Adam. Hi, Danny.

>> Hello, Chris. Good to good to be with

you again.

>> Yeah, nice nice to have you on Newscast.

>> And of course, Chris, you've been at

Westminster all day. I just meant you've

arrived at the newscast Westminster

studio to talk to us. Um, so Danny was

just doing the the backstory to these

two mistakenly released prisoners. He

hinted at um the political ramifications

of this. Do you want to just um before

we do the ramifications, do you want to

just do the timeline and how this all

came out in such an intriguing way at

Prime Minister's questions today?

>> Yeah. So it had a messy genesis did

this. So so it was prime minister's

questions except it was the B team. It

was the standings because the prime

minister's at the climate summit, the

COP summit in Brazil. So it was David

Lammy, the justice secretary and deputy

prime minister and James Cartage who is

the shadow defense secretary. Um uh you

might not be surprised that Kem not

wouldn't want the shadow justice

secretary Robert Genrich who was a

rather ambitious chap to have a go at

doing prime minister's questions. Not at

least not yet. Anyway, we park that you

you had a series of questions from James

Cartage which were very specific very

specific. And so journalistically I'd

gone into the chamber thinking maybe

today won't add up to very much because

because it's the B team. Um and then

James Cartage had this specific

formulation in his questions asking if

the deputy prime minister could reassure

the house that an asylumseeking offender

has been accidentally released from

prison. And once he was asking that for

the second time, I thought clearly he

knows something that he is seeking to

flush out of um David Lammy. David Lammy

didn't go anywhere near addressing the

question directly. He talked about the

wider justice system. There was a bit of

party political uh knockabout and and

that was that in the chamber. But it was

obvious to me something else was going

to come. We then get the statement from

the from the Metropolitan Police.

Crucially, the the the fact the key fact

or the apparently key fact in the

conservative question about being an

asylum seeker was wrong.

>> But it's also true that David Lammy

chose not to say anything. Now, I'm told

that that decision was made because he

felt that the police should say

something first. Uh and also they are

saying that they wanted to be they

wanted to have a reverence for facts. My

understanding is whilst David Lammy had

been briefed on what became the case in

question, he wasn't certain on entering

the chamber whether this gentleman was a

asylum seeker or not. So I think he was

aware of the limitation of what he knew

and therefore concluded politically it

was better to say nothing than say

something and then potentially find

himself uh it boxed into something of a

corner. That said, since then, bit of a

political row. Conservatives in the last

hour or so saying as we record at 6:20

he should come back to the chamber

accusing him of potentially misleading

the house. But park that sort of micro

if you like to one side and just picking

up on uh Danny's contribution as I put

my headphones on and I didn't hear all

of your answer there Danny. But the the

bigger question, isn't it for a justice

secretary is is is h how you go about

justifying a justice system that is

transparently and palpably and

repeatedly failing in that sort of most

basic of tasks, which is who should be

in prison and who shouldn't be and when

they should be released.

>> And Danny, just before you go, um I was

going to say the reason there was um

confusion about the immigration status

of Brahim Kadur Sharif is that he's got

quite a complicated backstory.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean he arrived, we are we

understand on a visit visa in the UK in

2019 and in February of 2020

um an automatic probable overstayer uh

was put on his record. Um I take that to

mean that his visa had expired um and uh

you know he should be investigated for

potential uh deportation. uh then we had

COVID understandable that perhaps things

began to grind to a halt then um and um

but you know in the intervening period

he hasn't been deported although there

was a period of time when he was at

Combrook uh immigration removal center

which is in West London uh earlier this

year he was there which suggests that

deportation proceedings were quite

advanced and his removal to Algeria was

was going to happen quite soon and then

it appears there were some court

appearances and suddenly he ends up in

Wsworth. Now, there's a, you know,

there's a bit of a gap about what

happened, but this is a failure by the

Home Office to deport him in the first

place, by the Ministry of Justice, uh,

because he shouldn't have been released.

Um, so two government departments at

fault. Um, I think David Lambie, the

justice secretary, could be given a sort

of, you know, a pass for the first uh,

release in error that that came to light

of Hades Kabatu. Not his fault. Problems

further down the chain. and he's only

recently imposed, but I think this one

is more problematic for him and

particularly the prisons minister, Lord

Timson, James Timson. I know he's widely

respected across the prison sector, um,

you know, by both parties, but prison

ministers have gone for less than this

and I think his position has got to be

looked at because this is really

serious. I mean, you know, this is there

was a warning the last time this

happened with Hades Kabatu. The

government said greater checks were in

place and look what's happened now. And

just one other point, we had um a a

review by the independent monitoring

board. That's a group of volunteers who

go into prisons and do sort of checks

and inspections. and they produce a

report and they produced a report on W

onsworth just last month and it

highlighted the chronic shortages of

staff at that prison with some days

there you know they are a third

um a third of staff are absent on sort

of on an average day some days they have

85 prison officers for 1,400 prisoners I

mean that's extraordinary and when the

the prison visitors went in they said

that staff couldn't even provide them

with an accurate number of prisoners

that day. Now, that report will have

landed on ministers desks certainly last

month if not before. What have they done

about it? Because that's how that's how

mistakes happen when you have don't have

enough staff and you have very

inexperienced staff. They can't even

tell you how many prisoners are in the

jail.

>> Extraordinary. Uh what's fascinating

listening to you Danny your analysis is

is amazing as always but I'm just

picturing you briefing a shadow cabinet

minister about all that stuff and then

them going into the chamber and then

doing basically what James Cartage did

to the government today that those

that's the case he he was making. Um

Danny, thank you very much. I'll let you

go.

>> You're welcome.

>> Thank you. And so Chris um yeah you were

talking about the opposition parties

responses to this and what they're

demanding from David Lammy at the moment

as we're recording at 25 6.

>> Yeah. So so the the opposition parties

are saying hang on a minute surely there

is a duty to be more candid uh when

you're in the House of Commons and under

the kind of questioning that he was

under there's a frustration about uh and

and an anger about David Lami's manner

in the chamber. uh the way that he

responded to the questions from James

Cartage, which was to brush them off uh

pretty robustly. Um and so the argument

goes from the opposition parties. If he

knew something, whatever it was he did

know on arriving in the chamber, could

he not have said that? Now, as I say,

underlying that or an important context

to that is that a key part of that very

carefully written um and repeated

question from the conservatives about a

someone seeking asylum turned out to be

turned out to be wrong. And so, did

David Lami think that it was conceivable

that there was this that was a reference

to a different case or that sense that

he wanted to be careful with the limited

amount that he did know? There are

certainly though questions about should

or could he have known more? Should or

could he have dulged what he did know at

the start of PMQs or in some other in

some other way or was there a reasonable

reason why he didn't beyond that concern

about a lack of knowledge about the uh

the full uh the full picture? But I but

as I say I'm I'm conscious as I say all

of that as interesting as that is and as

awkward as it as it is for David Lammy

that the bigger picture is where Danny

was getting to which is the which is the

broader state of the uh of the prison

service the the justice system and then

certainly within elements of this when

there is the focus on um offenders who

are foreign nationals or of foreign

heritage or asylum seekers um how this

becomes a if you like they become case

studies in the wider questions about

immigration as well as the questions

about the justice system.

>> Yeah. And I mean the government clearly

thought they'd got a grip of this after

the Kabatu release by implementing this

enhanced system for uh releasing people

and checking that they were going to the

right place or being released in the

correct way. I just wonder what they

will do next to try and get a grip of it

now that we've gone like up a level of

defcon when it comes to problems in the

justice system.

>> This is the thing, isn't it? How do you

demonstrate grip? And and of course

there's going to be lots of questions

asked about how these accidental

releases manage to happen and the

various people and agencies and

processes and paperwork. Bit like the

conversation we had with Charlie Taylor,

the uh his majesty's inspector of

prisons uh last week. There's complexity

there and a desire for answers. But in

the end, from a government minister's

perspective, the whole point is that you

can demonstrate grip, that you can

direct the system, that you can make

things happen. And when there is

evidence that your ability to do that is

either limited or just simply not

working, then it then it's incredibly

awkward. Now, yes, in this particular

instance, there might be questions for

all sorts of justice and home

secretaries uh in this government and

the previous one. Uh but in the end for

a government minister you you've got to

be you've got to be able to be seen to

be in control because if you're not and

we've seen this with the wider and and

in some instances separate case and in

some cases not issue around small boats.

If there is a big issue that is making

headlines that a newscaster might

reasonably assume a government would

have some control over and it

demonstrabably doesn't that is

perilously dangerous for a minister in

particular and a government in general.

>> Chris thank you very much. Tom, now as

promised, let's play you my conversation

with the former boss of John Lewis,

Charlie Mayfield, who's done this huge

report into what he calls the crisis of

ill health in the workplace, what it

means for employees, employers, the

government, and all of us because of the

knock-on effect it has on the economy.

And of course, I had to start by asking

him about the new John Lewis Christmas

advert, which shows a dad being given a

record by his teenage son, which takes

him back to his clubbing days, which he

abandoned when he became a dad. And some

people love it and some people hate it.

So, that is where I started the

conversation with Sir Charlie Mayfield.

>> Charlie, hello.

>> Hello. Hi, Adam. Great to be here.

>> First questions first, most important.

Have you seen the John Lewis Christmas

advert? No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Although I might ask you about that

later.

>> Well, I have actually.

>> Oh, have you? What do you think of it?

>> Well, I thought it was good. I mean, I I

I mean, you know, when I was there, I

left six years ago nearly, but um the

team did some amazing work and actually

But being a dad for a start,

>> that was going to be my next question.

Does it tug your dad heartstrings?

>> Well, it did a bit. Yeah. And I think uh

and being a terrible dancer, um but also

having a son who now is a bit older and

he's he's come out of his non-verbal

stage, but he certainly went through

that.

>> You can sort of relate to it. And I

thought it was it was nicely done. I

just wonder if all dads are now going to

get records

>> and not all dads have record players. I

know.

>> Um, right. Let's talk about what you're

actually here to talk about, which is

your your big review about uh how we

have a healthier workforce. What's the

best number that for you encapsulates

what a crisis we're facing because you

do call it a crisis.

>> Yeah. Um, do you know there are lots of

big numbers in the report and so you can

sort of read those, but I always I

always find that they can kind of end up

being wallpapers sometimes because

everybody bands around big numbers. I

think the probably the best way to

describe it is if you're a young person

and you're starting out in work and

you're not sure whether you're going to

be any good, whether you're going to fit

in, all those normal things. If you get

onto a track that we obly hope people

get onto where they they get into work

and they sort of find that they're okay

at few things and they feel part of a

team and they get onto that track where

they end up staying in work,

>> then you know on average, in fact, not

even average, you know, you're going to

earn over a million pounds over the

course of your lifetime, your working

lifetime. and and many people much more.

However, some of those people find that

it doesn't work out that way and they

end up on a slippery slope that

eventually leads them to leaving work.

And if you leave work in your 20s, you

know, then you're going to miss out on

that million and you're probably going

to cost the state about a million. So

it's 2 million pounds per person.

>> And since around about 2020, nearly

200,000 young people have left the

workforce largely for mental health

reasons. So that's a huge number. Now,

we couldn't stop all of that. I mean,

it's not possible to say flick our

fingers and make that good.

>> But that's what's at stake. And you know

what I mean, the other thing I'd say is

that talking about money and numbers is

just one side of the equation. Just

imagine the difference in life chances

in how people feel through their lives,

you know, the opportunities they get,

their sense of purpose, you know, all of

these things. Those are just as

important.

>> Well, and also the cold hard cash for

employers. What is it like a a person

off sick is £120 of profit per day.

>> Yeah, exactly. So they So

>> which is a hu that's a huge amount of

money.

>> It is a huge amount of money. And so

what we have I mean we have a situation

where we it kind of I mean it's it's one

of these situations where you sort of

realize that going going through the

review I mean having it's it was a

privilege to have the time to go and

spend time talking to people but what

you realize is we've winded up in a

situation no one wanted. And also it's

one of those slow motion crises that you

you have to have an opportunity to

actually see it because if if it's

happening all the time, you don't notice

it.

>> And it's a bit complicated. So you know

there's bits bit moving around and it's

not you can't all just say it's all like

this or it's all like that. It's more

complicated than that. It's just the

nature of it. But when you stand back

from saying how did we end up here? Cuz

no one wanted this. It was just it's

just kind of happened without us

realizing.

>> And I know you don't want to do numbers

but there's another big number which is

the cost to the public finances. If you

add up the benefits bill, the loss of

tax revenue, the loss of productivity to

the economy, and that is an eye

wateringly large number.

>> It's huge. Yeah, it's absolutely huge.

It's over 200 billion. So, it's it's we

say 70% of the the income tax revenues.

So, these are huge numbers. Um and but I

think the other point I want to really

make in we tried to make in the review

is that you you kind of need to say to

people, wake up. This is a really really

big issue and it deserves concentration

and attention and we have to all now get

on to fixing it. But the other message

that we've tried to put across is this

is a serious problem, but it's fixable.

This is not like we've got to learn to

do a whole load of new things. The

answers are already here that we already

have them. They're just very unevenly

distributed.

>> But let's talk about some of the reasons

why this has happened.

>> Um the young people's mental health

crisis, which everyone who works with

young people says is is a real thing. Do

you have a theory about why that's

happened? there is a noticeable uptick

in the incidence of mental health issues

amongst young people from about 2014. So

this is not a pandemic thing. People

think seem to think it is. It was made

worse by the pandemic through the you

know the the issues of isolation and

stuff but the trend was absolutely there

from way way before that

>> and yeah I don't know I my view and

again having kids of my own seeing I

mean actually my two eldest ones sort of

grew up out of those teenage years just

ahead of the social media wave and my

younger one was sort of just on the just

just about escaped

>> but I do think it's I I personally I

think social media does have an impact

it means people are sort of in the

spotlight all the time they don't get a

break and as you know life is quite hard

and sometimes you just need to have a

break and and it's very difficult. So I

think that probably that is a factor but

it's not the only factor

>> and then for older people in the

workforce it seems that people are

getting sicker younger and sort of

sicker in a more complicated way. Well,

so I mean, if you think about an older

person, and the great risk in all of

this, by the way, is you generalize. And

so I I just apologize upfront for

generalizing. And I appreciate that what

I'm going to say does not apply to

everybody and every situation at all.

And and therefore, it might seem,

>> you know, a bit blunt, but if you're if

you imagine you're older person and you

have you have joint pain of some kind

and then you get signed off work and you

go home and you're at home with your

joint pain, it's not nice being in pain.

It gets you down. Mhm.

>> And if you're also isolated from work

and you find that you're not getting the

sort of interaction and the sort of

affirmation that sometimes you can get

from just being with your colleagues and

then saying to you, great to see you

today or just talking to you or have

sharing a joke, all that kind of stuff.

You're isolated from it.

>> Then it's very common for what starts as

something to do with joint pain can then

end up putting you onto the beginnings

of of of sort of early stage mental

health issues. And if those aren't

addressed, they can then develop and

over time people can then get themselves

into position. It's I mean it's it's

penicious because then you become less

confident. You become you you feel less

able to go back to work because you're

feeling less good about yourself.

>> And also if you've been off year for a

work you find research that shows the

chances of you coming back plummet after

you've been off for a year.

>> And this is why because it compounds you

know. So the longer you're away the less

confident you feel about going back. And

so the bigger the effort needs to be put

in to help you to come back. And of

course that's sometimes hard to do. It

won't always work. So it's a it's a

problem. It's this kind of what I mean.

No one really wanted this, but we end up

it ends up snowballing and you end up in

this situation. And so we have to we

have to engage in that and see and and

we can do to to to to stop that

happening for people.

>> And then you've got the the work culture

that we've got in this country. One

aspect of which is that employers are a

little bit scared to speak to their

employees if they're off sick. And

equally employees are scared about

totally about going back to work or what

happens if they they need to have that

conversation too.

>> Yeah. I mean I think you know we we went

around the country we had we had um

hundreds and hundreds of meetings with

people uh all over all over the place

and we also went to other countries to

look at their operations and so again

the risk of sum oversummarizing but one

of the things we heard of consistently

is there's a lot of fear in here as you

said people if if you have an ill health

condition and in many ways particularly

if you have a mental health condition if

you have a broken leg got a broken leg

but if you have a mental health

condition you're very unlikely to say

hey I've got a mental health condition

today so you're you're afraid of

disclosing that. And of course, then

your line manager doesn't know that the

reason you're not looking great or not

performing terribly well is because

actually you've got some issue. They

just think you're not performing very

well. And also the line manager, if they

get half a scent that there is some

there is a problem with health, they

they tend to be then also afraid of of

engaging on that because they don't want

to cause offense because people

recognize health is a very personal

thing. They definitely don't want to do

something which creates a cause for a

complaint, let alone a grievance, let

alone a tribunal. And I have to tell you

that employers I have met um they will

they will they'll go to quite you know

they will avoid that and and even to the

point that they won't necessarily employ

people that they think who could look

risky. Now that's not right. Uh I'm not

saying it's right at all but we should

be clear it is happening.

>> So you're saying that the the problem is

employers not inquiring asking thinking

enough about their employees health.

It's not employers being too harsh.

>> Um I think I mean again this is where we

have to be careful about generalizing

because every employee is different.

Every employer is different.

>> Employees different. But I think the

point of that I think the significant

point is this this the issue of fear.

The reason it matters is it creates

distance between people.

>> You know almost the reason for it is

whatever it is the consequence of it is

it creates distance. People if they're

fearful they don't talk to each other.

And in the context of ill health, you

know, if you want to help people, you

need people to talk to one another.

>> And and and and so that's what we have

to address. And so one of the things we

say in the review is that we kind of

need to rehumanize the workplace. We

have got a situation now where it's not

uncommon if somebody let's say if

someone is off work for stress there'll

be quite a few HR departments who will

say to the line manager the last thing

you should do is phone that person to

say how are you because there's a risk

that they'll perceive that as you sort

of bullying them or pressuring them to

come back to work when it may be you're

just phoning them to say how are you?

>> Yeah. So we've ended up treating people

as risks, not as people. And and and I

can understand exactly why that's

happened. And there's a rationality to

it,

>> but it's not helping us.

>> Um, so if you then talk about a kind of

better world and you spend a lot of the

report talking about about solutions and

also it's good because you do a whole

like list of potential things rather

than doing a list of here's what you've

definitely got to do. Um, I mean, one of

the really kind of obvious ones when you

then think about it is, oh, if you have

a if you have your return to work plan

when you're sick now, why not have a not

going off sick in the first place plan?

>> Well, we call it a stay and work plan. I

mean, we said, look, I mean, if if we're

looking for things that will be good to

to would it be if we could invent the

future,

>> you know, what would be good features of

that future? Uh, one of them would be

that people have return to work plans,

you know, but that doesn't I mean some

employers do it, but that does not exist

currently as a regular part of of

handling ill health in the workplace.

But and it goes straight to my point

which is that you don't want someone

sitting at home not you know on their

own. We had I mean we can solve this too

because I mean when when maternity you

when when women participated much more

in the workplace which of course is is

brilliant but also when they were

pregnant and they were off on maternity

leave there was an issue which came up

which is people started to feel very

disassociated and dislocated from work

which was a challenge to then them then

them coming back. So we came up with a

very simple solution which called

keeping in touch days. They're now part

of maternity and paternity leave

arrangements. They're just regular

nobody blinks

>> and these days don't feel like a sort of

grenade waiting to go off. They're just

quite a normal path.

>> It's just a completely normal part. And

if you're going to have a return to work

plan, then the next thing you think

about, okay, well, if you're going to

have a return to work plan, why not have

a stay in work plan? Because if you

think about that as an idea, you know,

if you can encourage people to say, you

know what, I have got a problem. Or you

can support a line manager so that they

can be sensitive and say, actually, I

think someone may have an issue here and

I'm going to be I'm going to feel

supported and safe to raise that. Then

you've identified early. You say, you

know what, I think, okay, I get it. Now

you need to have some time off to have

an appointment. You need

>> I suppose the issue there is though is

you can see how you design a system like

oh after an employee's been off a

certain amount of time you should have a

phone call with them and then have a

return plan

>> so they can come back to to their their

job. At what point do you start talking

to them about the staying in work plan?

That's a much fuzzier more complicated

thing isn't it? So look that so there's

a big cultural bit to what we're talking

about here which is again some of the I

think sometimes people look at these

situations and they see a big problem

and they want to see the oh the way we

solve it is we do this this this and

this and it's done you know and you're

done human beings are a bit more

complicated than that and and there

isn't that option here. So but but what

you have to do is engage with that. You

have to engage with the the humanity of

the workplace and so creating and

encouraging people to be able to talk to

one another is is is a good thing to do.

And of course, when you start thinking

about it, there's lots of things we

could be doing that we're not doing

right now. I mean, if you are somebody

with an early stage mental health issue,

maybe you're feeling anxious in work.

Who do you turn to? And and actually

nowadays, you know, there's technology

available. There's AIS that you could

very quickly probably stand up a service

which you could access completely

confidentially. It could really give you

good quality advice. I mean, you have to

be careful. Could give you bad advice as

well.

>> Also like a work health chatbot.

>> Absolutely. You could have things like

that. and and these these exist and they

they actually show some good results in

some places, but we're not using them on

a broad basis. But the other thing I'd

say to you is you've got to think about

this through the line manager lens as

well because they're nervous. They're

not line managers cannot be

psychologists. You know, they that you

can't expect that of them. They're busy

people who've got stresses and strains

of everyday life and all of that as

well. And you know, if they're

struggling to manage somebody, it's

quite a big deal for them to go to HR

and say, "I'm struggling. Uh can you

help me?" Because then they're worried

that HR might say, "Oh, they're not a

very good line manager." So again, it

works both ways. Wouldn't it be great if

we could have technology which provided

in the moment absolutely brilliant

advice that people could access easily.

So those kinds of things are doable. Um

and and and I think I see a future where

we we need to I'm not saying that's a

again it's not a silver bullet. Totally

not. But it but there's so much

potential for us to address these issues

if we name them and then lean in on

them. So, do people just have to get

used to the idea that in a few years or

a few decades time they might be

chatting to a chatbot about their

deepest feelings which is linked to

their employment?

>> Well, so I think we've got to be careful

that's kind of programmed by and and

purchased by their employer.

>> So, I've used an example. Yeah. And I

think and I've lapped on it

>> and we can overuse an example. So, no, I

I want to I mean at the heart of this I

want to rehumanize the workplace. Yeah.

>> But you see one of the things you also

have to recognize it's difficult for

people to name things. So you need to

probably find ways to make it easier for

them to at least talk to somebody. I

think it's better that someone's talking

to a good AI. Yes.

>> Than not talking to anybody. Yeah,

>> that is better. It's not a sufficient

solution. And hopefully what might

happen is the AI helps them to think

about well how could you raise this? How

could you feel safe to raise this with

your employer?

>> Meanwhile, for the for the line manager,

same kind of thing or the employer

generally, how do you create a safe

environment where people feel able to

raise things without being judged? And

because if you can raise them early,

there's so much you can do to fix them.

There really are. There's so much you

can do.

>> And then um the idea of fitnotes, well,

they're not an idea. They're a thing

that exists. It's this is when your GP

um writes a note for you if you've been

off off work for a certain amount of

time that that then affects whether you

go back to work or not. I mean, it

sounds like that. You talk about we've

ended up with a system that no one

wanted. That also sounds a bit like a

system that no one wanted because it

doesn't sound like it works with the

GPS, employers, or the employees.

>> Yeah. And and let's be clear, I'm not

the first person to say this. It's

pretty common common view held by a lot

of people.

>> Oh yeah, it was a big Rishies policy was

to reform it.

>> Exactly. Uh and so uh it is an issue. Um

it's also something which is not easy to

resolve otherwise it probably would have

been would have been sorted out and I

think the other point I would stress is

that this is not a matter of the GPS not

doing their job as such or or sort of

signing people off really too easily.

Um, I think the way to think about it is

the G in the context of the fitnote, the

GP is being asked to see the patient and

and to assess their health condition and

how to how to uh uh how to approach that

and improve it

>> and they're being asked to assess the

extent to which that person can work

while they're getting better.

>> Yeah. So, a GP has to be an expert in I

don't know a broadcasting organization,

a plumbing company, a restaurant, you

every every job you can imagine a GP has

to sort of be a mini expert in to work

out what to do.

>> And they can't do that. and they say

that and and I think everybody realizes

they can't do it. And yet we've we have

got in the system part built into the

system is a job that they can't do. Uh

and as a result 93% of fitnotes say

people are not fit for work which is I

think is a sign that they can't do that

piece of it. But it's better to say

probably that than to say oh we'll just

carry on anyway. So we have to we have

to replace that. But if you go back to

what we were saying about a return to

work plan and a stay in work plan, if

you could imagine a world where you've

got a return to work plan and it's been

agreed between you and your employer and

a workplace health professional, always

with the option of referring to your GP

and keeping your GP in the loop, that

bit of the fitnote is kind of not it's

not really needed anymore.

>> That sounds like even more work for GPS

though. That's multiple conversations

with a person. No, because I think what

we're proposing is that is that this is

where the workplace health provision

needs to step up and provide some of

that. Now I think the point that I also

want to stress here though is that

nobody is saying that this in this

situation that you can't go and see your

GP or and and at the end of the day you

know anything we stand up within an

employment context if somebody feels

unhappy with the outcome and they go see

their GP and the GP is their primary

care provider has you know says well I

don't think this is quite right then

that kind of has to trump all the rest

of it but we think that maybe you know a

large proportion of most of the everyday

stuff can be dealt with through this

system.

>> And when you talk to GPS, they they kind

of say when you say, "Well, what would

happen if somebody has a return to work

plan?"

>> Most of them say to me, "Well, we'd

probably ask the patient what they think

of it." And if the patient says, "Well,

I think I can probably do that." They

say, "Well, that's pretty good." Then

>> the old way of talking about this is,

"Oh, what do employers do? What does the

government do?"

>> I notice you say the word responsibility

quite a lot of times. And you say the

responsibility lies with the employee as

well. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Do you think we need a little bit of a I

don't know a reset about the

responsibilities of of workers?

>> Yeah. Uh I mean I think in a word um you

know what we're saying is

>> and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to

get you to say oh we've become a nation

of slackers. I don't I'm not that's not

what I'm getting at.

>> Yeah. No no no I see that and and it's

not really that because I don't think

it's it's nothing is ever as simple as

that.

>> But what we do say I mean very clearly

is that employees need to do a bit more.

employees need to do some more and so do

so does the government. And on the

employee piece you essentially what

we're saying is look a supportive

working environment is important that is

a it's a good environment in which you

know for you to flourish and so there

are aspects of that that are things that

you should rightly expect. However, you

also have personal responsibility and

some of that personal responsibility is

to recognize that you know not always

it's not about people giving you

everything on a plate all the time so

you can be your best self. you kind of

have to show up and be your best self

and you sometimes will have to show a

degree of resilience and stay in a

situation where you're not feeling

comfortable in order to get through it.

And if what you do instead is you

disengage from that too quickly and too

early, you can set yourself on a path

which can lead to, you know, long-term

disengagement from the work workplace,

which by the way is really bad for you

in most cases. It's not good for the

economy. It's not good for the

employers. You know, I hate my boss is

not a health condition. I mean, you may

hate your boss. Your boss might be a

hateful person, in which case something

should be done about that.

>> But it may also be that your boss has

just told you that what you've done is

not good enough and that needs to be

better. And and if they're doing that in

the right way, they're doing what bosses

are meant to do. And actually, they're

giving you the opportunity to develop

and grow. And so, you know, I think

there is a responsibility there that we

do need to emphasize and also ensure

that people understand that the

alternative of just disengaging

probably doesn't solve anything. And in

fact, it puts you at real long-term risk

of losing out.

>> I mean, this is maybe out the scope of

your review, but can you understand why

a young employee who

is coping with like the cost of living,

can't get on the housing ladder, still

living at home, why they might feel

quite disillusioned about the world of

work altogether, not just about what

kind of provision there is for their

their health.

>> I completely can understand that. And

and I think what you find in talking to

employers about and employees about

about uh issues of health is that um

sometimes it's what's happening outside

of work which is creating the issue

which is then manifesting itself in

work. Um so uh you absolutely have and

again it's this whole point about

needing to take a human perspective on

this. We're whole human beings. We

aren't just the person at work. We are

we're a whole life

>> and the whole community that we live in

and and so the fact is going if you're

having a problem with your partner or

your or or there's ill health in your

family or there's also or financial

pressures all those things can be uh can

be really big big influences.

>> Um and I also take your point that

people can can can become disillusioned.

I mean I think sometimes people say to

me oh is it is it that we just got sort

of people who don't who lack resilience?

I I don't agree with that. I think um I

think what can unfortunately happen is

you can have people who get into a

situation where you know you know we

live we live we live a life of sliding

doors if yeah people you some people are

lucky and the doors slide in the right

direction and the case sometimes they

probably do things which help that to

happen but some people aren't lucky and

they start without a lot of resilience

and the doors don't slide in the right

direction they have a whole series of

bad experiences at work

>> and then quite rationally if you're one

of those people and you're saying well

so should I go back and have a what's

probably going to another bad experience

at work or should I do something else?

You might think that something else

looks more attractive and I so I

understand that and I think it's

important to understand that rather than

just dismissing people and saying, "Oh,

they just don't like work. They're work

shy." You know, it's it's more

complicated than that. And of course,

the answer to it lies in trying to

encourage employers to do what they can

do to help the doors to slide in the

right direction. The answer lies in the

individual showing some personal

responsibility and not always sort of

taking the view that somehow they've

been they're disadvantaged or they've

been treated badly when they may have

been treated perfectly reasonably and

stay in it.

>> Um and of course the responsibility is

also on government to ensure that the

incentives and the sort of encouragement

is in the right place to encourage the

right outcomes.

>> Now I should say to listeners of

newscast you've got some papers on the

desk in front of you and some notes and

you haven't looked at them once because

you knew all this stuff like the back of

your hand. So, I've just had an insight

into what it must be like doing a board

meeting with you at John Lewis in those

days. Pilot papers doesn't even need to

look at them. Um, Charlie, thank you

very much.

>> Thanks, Adam.

Key Vocabulary

Vocabulary	Meanings
prisoner /ˈprɪzənər/ B1	noun - a person who is confined in a prison
release /rɪˈliːs/ B2	verb - to set free; to make available to the public noun - the act of setting someone free; a published item
error /ˈɛrər/ B1	noun - a mistake
minister /ˈmɪnɪstər/ B2	noun - a senior government official who heads a department
justice /ˈdʒʌstɪs/ B2	noun - the principle of moral rightness; the legal system
health /hɛlθ/ B1	noun - the state of being free from illness or injury
workforce /ˈwɜrkfɔrs/ C1	noun - the total number of people employed by a company or in a country
responsibility /rɪˌspɒnsɪˈbɪlɪti/ C1	noun - the duty to deal with something or the state of being accountable
resilience /rɪˈzɪliəns/ C1	noun - the capacity to recover quickly from difficulties
deportation /ˌdiːpɔːˈteɪʃən/ C1	noun - the act of expelling a foreigner from a country
policy /ˈpɒləsi/ B2	noun - a course or principle of action adopted by an organization
system /ˈsɪstəm/ B1	noun - a set of connected things or an organized method
investigation /ɪnˌvɛstɪˈgeɪʃən/ C1	noun - the act of examining something closely to discover facts
consequence /ˈkɒnsɪkwəns/ B2	noun - a result or effect, typically one that is unwelcome
bureaucracy /bjʊˈrɒkrəsi/ C1	noun - a system of government in which many decisions are made by state officials rather than elected representatives
crisis /ˈkraɪsɪs/ B2	noun - a time of intense difficulty or danger
accountability /əˌkaʊntəˈbɪlɪti/ C1	noun - the obligation to explain or justify actions to someone
oversight /ˈoʊvərˌsaɪt/ C1	noun - the action of overseeing something; also an unintentional omission
transparency /trænsˈpærənsi/ C1	noun - the quality of being open and honest; clarity
compliance /kəmˈplaɪəns/ C1	noun - conformity in fulfilling a requirement or rule

Key Grammar Structures

• Another two prisoners have been released

  ➔ Passive voice (Present Perfect Simple Passive)

  ➔ "Have been released" shows action on the subject without specifying the doer.

• by accident from a prison in the UK

  ➔ Prepositional phrase indicating cause or manner

  ➔ "By accident" modifies how the action occurred: unintentionally.

• It's he's here to answer questions

  ➔ Infinitive of purpose

  ➔ "To answer questions" explains the reason for being at the dispatch box.

• Can he reassure the house that...

  ➔ Modal verb of ability or possibility in question form

  ➔ "Can" asks about the deputy's ability to provide reassurance.

• No other asylum-seeking offender has been accidentally let out

  ➔ Present Perfect Passive with negative

  ➔ "Has been let out" confirms no previous similar incident; passive hides the agent.

• And the details as to why he was released are still coming in

  ➔ Present Continuous Passive

  ➔ "Are still coming in" indicates information is ongoing.

• And I think it is frankly just embarrassing

  ➔ Cleft sentence for emphasis

  ➔ "It is frankly just embarrassing" emphasizes the embarrassment.

• We are told that he was released in error

  ➔ Reporting verb with that-clause

  ➔ "Are told" introduces information; "that he was released" is the reported fact.

• And so if you leave work in your 20s

  ➔ First conditional with if

  ➔ "If you leave" sets a hypothetical condition; "then you miss out" predicts result.

• The reason it matters is it creates distance

  ➔ Extraposed subject for emphasis

  ➔ "The reason...is" moves the subject for emphasis on the intervening clause.