China's President XI Jinping,
held a massive military parade
00:00
to mark 80 years
since the end of World War two
00:04
and the country's victory in it.
00:08
But it was much more than a parade.
Vladimir Putin was there.
00:10
The leader of Russia and
North Korea's Kim Jong un.
00:15
It was the first time all three men have
met together, and that's a big deal.
00:19
But what sort of alliance is this,
00:24
and how should Western
leaders respond? I'm Celia Hatton.
00:27
This is the global news podcast
on the BBC World Service.
00:31
Well, to help explain all of this,
00:38
I'm joined by four names
from around the BBC.
00:40
We have Stephen McDonell, Jeanne
McKenzie, Olga Ivashina and with me
00:43
in the studio, Mikey Kaye.
Jeanne, I'm going to start with you,
00:47
and I'm going to ask you the question
that I want everybody really to answer.
00:51
Can you introduce yourself
and then also tell us
00:55
what's the one moment
that stood out for you
00:58
from the events
that we've been seeing in Beijing.
01:02
So I'm the BBC's Seoul correspondent,
which means I'm based here in Seoul
01:05
in South Korea,
but I cover North and South Korea.
01:08
And so for me, watching this parade,
the moment I guess that really stood out
01:12
for me was just right
at the beginning
01:16
when you had Kim Jong UN walking
through Tiananmen Square,
01:18
right at the front with XI Jinping
01:21
and Vladimir Putin,
the three of them together,
01:24
just because, you know, this is
a leader that has been so isolated.
01:27
And suddenly he seemed
almost elevated to the same level
01:30
of these two major world players.
01:35
And just seeing them,
seeing him on that kind of stage
01:37
and given that prominence
by the Chinese was quite staggering.
01:40
And Olga, your thoughts, what's the
moment that that's stuck in your mind?
01:44
I'm covering everything related
to Russia.
01:49
Senior correspondent
at BBC Russian Service.
01:51
The moment which really stuck with me
was actually a day before
01:54
when Putin was welcomed by
XI Jinping.
01:58
And this is the moment which
was broadcasted by Russian TV many,
02:00
many times on repeat afterwards.
02:03
It was Mr. Putin walking on
a red carpet just through the barrage
02:06
of flags of of the other countries
who were invited by XI Jinping as well.
02:10
And this was exactly the message,
both internally and externally,
02:15
because the West, the Western
countries were talking so much
02:19
about isolation of Russia,
about sanctions,
02:23
diplomatic blockade,
economic blockade.
02:26
But here he is, Mr.
Putin walking
02:29
on the red carpet again
through the barrage of flags,
02:31
surrounded by countries
who are happy to talk to him,
02:34
who see him not who at least publicly
perceive him, not as a war criminal,
02:37
but as a leader of a mighty country
who they want to have dealings with.
02:42
That's a very
powerful message, which Mr.
02:47
Putin wants to reiterate again
and again.
02:49
Okay, so that was the view from
Moscow. Let's go over to Beijing.
02:53
Stephen, you've been in the middle
of this all for days now.
02:57
What's been a big moment
in your mind?
03:01
I'm one of the China correspondents
based in Beijing.
03:05
I've been a reporter in this city
for two decades,
03:07
so I've seen quite a few
of these parades.
03:11
You know, it's it is amazing.
03:14
Even though these things happen again
and again,
03:17
they never cease to, uh, well,
make you laugh because.
03:19
So this parade, it's not
for ordinary people to go to.
03:23
In fact, for several blocks back from
the main east west drag of Beijing,
03:27
you couldn't get anywhere near it
unless you've got special permission.
03:32
And there's some poor
foreigner there.
03:35
Somewhere down the road, he and he
can see the vehicles coming through.
03:37
He's trying to take some photos
with his camera.
03:41
And there are these two plainclothes
goons standing in front of him,
03:44
blocking his camera, but also filming
themselves the parade at the same time.
03:48
So they're blocking him
while they're filming the parade,
03:54
and the whole thing is being telecast
anyway, it's on television.
03:57
Why on earth
would you be trying to block
04:01
this poor bloke from getting a couple
of photos?
04:03
But it's just the ridiculousness
of how things happen in China.
04:05
Sometimes the word goes out
to these more lowly, um, you know,
04:09
party officials, and
they just do what they've got to do,
04:13
no matter how ridiculous it is.
Stephen, you make me laugh.
04:16
I mean, you and I
have known each other for decades.
04:19
I mean, back to when I was
a correspondent in Beijing as well.
04:22
And I remember
during these moments of these parades
04:25
being sort of sequestered blocks
and blocks away
04:28
and having to watch the whole event
on TV, but you could sort of hear
04:31
the tanks rumbling by
and the aircraft going overhead.
04:34
I mean, it really was
kind of an amazing thing to cover.
04:38
I'm a bit jealous
that you're doing it from China.
04:41
One other thing while you mention it.
04:44
The funny thing, of course, I've
been having practice runs for this.
04:45
And so there we are.
Like on the weekend.
04:48
You're sitting there Saturday night
and you're you're flattened.
04:51
It's all shaking because
the tanks are coming down the road
04:55
and we stick our heads out the window
and they're practicing.
04:59
And then you get this knock
on the door from the cops.
05:01
Don't take photos, don't take photos.
But I mean, goodness knows why.
05:03
Because, like I say, it is all going
to be on television anyway.
05:07
Um. All right. Well, Mikey Kay,
great to have you here with me.
05:10
It's nice to have a face to,
to look at directly.
05:14
Um, you know, you have a completely
different perspective on this,
05:17
What is the moment that made
you sit up and pay attention
05:21
when you were watching this spectacle
taking place in China's capital?
05:25
Yeah, it was
it was pretty remarkable, actually.
05:29
I run the BBC news security brief
on the channel.
05:31
I've got 30 years in counterterrorism,
counterinsurgency, ten combat tours,
05:34
20 years in the military, and
then ten reporting from war zones.
05:38
Um, and what I, what I really focused
on was, yes, there's obviously
05:41
a big uptick in terms of having these
three leaders sat watching this parade,
05:45
which to me tells me
there's an evolution
05:49
of an alliance that's occurring here
right under the West nose.
05:51
And it's been happening for some
time. But the big thing for me was
05:55
just the sheer volume of military
capability that was on display.
05:57
And the bits that really interest me
is not necessarily
06:02
the legacy equipment that they've got,
but what's new, what's out there.
06:05
So, for example, these these
autonomous drones that sit on the
06:08
on the wing of manned fast jets, um,
06:11
the size of these intercontinental
ballistic missiles
06:14
that now have the capability
of reaching the US.
06:17
And that's all a statement, you know,
that's all that's all there on purpose.
06:20
None of this is by mistake.
06:23
And you look at the sheer numbers
of the the People's Liberation Army
06:25
in terms of numbers of troops,
numbers of tanks, artillery.
06:28
Um, you look
at the aircraft in the air,
06:31
um, you know,
Russia, Russia, China and,
06:34
and North Korea
are cementing something here,
06:37
which the West has relied on for
a long time in terms of an alliance.
06:40
But when it comes to alliances,
you can sort of see fragmentations
06:44
in where the West are now going
with NATO,
06:48
which is, uh,
which inception was in 1949.
06:50
And now we see
a strength building an alliance
06:53
which which isn't going to be good
for the West.
06:56
I mean, it's amazing, right?
06:58
We're entering into this new era
of military parades,
06:59
where superpowers like the US and
China are putting all their hardware,
07:03
all their toys
on display for us to see.
07:08
I mean, what's it like to see those
things just literally being paraded
in front of our eyes?
07:11
Yeah. Well, I mean, Donald
Trump attempted it a few months ago,
07:16
and I think he's he's probably
regretting that now when you look
07:19
at the size
and sort of spectacle that,
07:22
um, that China has just put on
versus, you know,
07:24
what the, what the US did a couple
of months ago.
07:27
I mean, the UK
would never do something like that.
07:30
I do think there is sometimes
strength in silence.
07:32
Um, and I don't I don't want to
sort of, you know, shock the pigeons
07:35
at this point because, yeah,
the volume is,
07:38
is significant and it's,
it's quite startling.
07:41
But when it comes to sort of
real analysis of military capability,
07:44
you've just got to look at the
technology inside what you're seeing.
07:47
And I think that's where
the huge differences occur.
07:50
And we can we can come on
to that a little bit later.
07:53
So those are the parades. And all
of you have given a great overview of
07:55
what it's like to witness a parade,
and also the messaging that could lie
07:59
behind this parade and others
that you've seen.
08:04
But I want to focus for a moment away
from the hardware and and onto the men,
08:08
mostly men
who were watching this parade.
08:15
The invited guests
and three in particular
have really caught our attention.
08:17
We've got XI Jinping,
the leader of China,
08:22
we've got Vladimir Putin,
the leader of Russia,
08:24
and we've got Kim Jong un
from North Korea.
08:26
I just wonder if we can turn to you,
Stephen. First, you know,
08:31
to that end, I wonder if you can give
us a sense of XI Jinping and and
08:35
how he's seen domestically and also
abroad what he was trying to achieve
08:40
by hosting this massive global event
in front of the TV cameras.
08:47
Well, a C Jinping
is interesting in a way,
08:52
in that he's a real mystery man.
08:56
I mean, he gives very little away.
08:59
People don't know
what music he likes, really.
09:02
Does he play sport? Apparently
he plays ping pong or something.
09:05
I've never seen him do it.
Um, you never see him crack a joke?
09:07
Do you know what I mean?
He barely cracks a smile.
09:12
And when you compare him to other
Chinese leaders like Jiang Zemin
09:14
and, um, Deng Xiaoping sticking
cowboy hats on and carrying on,
09:18
and I mean Jiang Zemin showing off
his other languages, etc.,
09:22
he, I mean, Hu Jintao
just before she was pretty wooden.
09:27
And she I mean,
he's not given anything away,
09:30
but one thing he is
and that's feared.
09:35
And I think he probably likes that
because when he came in, there was
09:37
this huge anti-corruption crackdown.
09:40
He used it to take out
all his political enemies.
09:43
And so within the party,
you know, man,
09:46
no, you know, no one's going
to really take it up to him.
09:49
And I think part of the criticism
of this style of leadership
09:53
is that he's surrounded by yes men
and they are mostly all men.
09:56
The Politburo Standing Committee,
for example, no women there,
10:01
and he's appointed his old friends
to the Politburo Standing Committee.
10:03
The other factions
aren't represented there anymore.
10:07
So that's kind of what he's like. Um,
10:10
as for ordinary people,
well, they call him XI Dada.
10:14
It's kind of
an affectionate name for him.
10:17
Um, I guess it it it sounds it's,
I guess in one way you could think of it
10:19
as, like, Big XI, but it's more
like Uncle XI or something like that.
10:23
It's kind of affectionate.
Um, while we're talking about it,
10:26
I should say ordinary
Chinese people have some nicknames
10:29
for the other leaders
you're speaking about.
10:31
Um, tell us please.
In Sampang is a beauty.
10:33
Kim Fatty Kim the third
or Kim Fatty the third?
10:37
It should be. It's a reference
to him being the third, Kim.
10:40
And of course, the size of him,
etcetera. And even here,
10:43
Chinese government officials calling
him that secret little sampang.
10:46
You know, Kim Fatty the third, um,
10:49
and for Vladimir Putin,
um, it's um, poo daddy,
10:52
but which is like calling him
emperor, Emperor Putin?
10:57
He doesn't get it as much as, um,
as Jin Sang.
11:00
But everyone calls
Kim Jong UN Jin sambong here.
11:04
Not little kids
to probably people on the Politburo.
11:07
Let's turn then to hear about Fattie Kim
the third, for lack of a better term.
11:11
As some some
in China might call him mean Gene.
11:15
Take us through, uh, the spectacle
of Kim Jong UN arriving in Beijing.
11:18
And really, what he's been trying
to achieve during his time in China.
11:26
Yeah. I mean, look, as Stephen said,
Kim, the third is because,
11:31
of course, he is the third, uh,
11:34
in this family dynasty
of rulers that have ruled North Korea
11:37
since sort of just a few years
after the Second World War.
11:41
Uh, so it was his grandfather first,
then it was his father,
11:44
and then he took over
when he was only 27 years old,
11:46
because his father died
quite unexpectedly.
11:49
And so he had to consolidate power
really quite quickly.
11:51
And it was sort of people talked
about whether he was going to be
11:56
quite a weak leader, because he really
hadn't been sort of groomed enough.
11:59
He hadn't been put in the public eye
because his father died so unexpectedly.
12:04
But actually he proved
himself to be remarkably ruthless,
12:08
and he consolidated power
very effectively,
12:12
purging anybody who would rival him,
even his uncle.
12:15
And so he has really continued
this authoritarian dictatorship
12:18
that North Korea has, um, you know,
12:22
probably one of the most authoritarian
countries in the world, right, where
12:24
people it's people are more restricted
than anywhere else in the world.
12:28
Um, now, in terms of what he wanted
to achieve in Beijing, I mean,
12:31
because of the ruthlessness
of the Kim dictatorship,
12:36
North Korea is
an incredibly isolated country.
12:40
It has been treated
as a pariah not only by the West,
12:43
but by countries like China
and Russia in the past as well,
12:46
and and almost completely isolated.
12:48
Now, some of that
has been Kim's doing, but,
12:51
um, it's left him
very few places to turn, uh,
12:53
because North Korea is just now
incredibly heavily sanctioned.
12:57
Um, but what we've seen
over the last couple of years
13:01
is him forge this relationship
with Vladimir Putin, right?
13:03
Because he has been supporting
Putin's war in Ukraine,
13:06
and that really helped him come
out of isolation because
13:09
the Covid years were really,
really difficult for North Korea,
13:11
because Kim essentially shut all
the borders and they were so scared
13:14
about Covid getting in. This is
such a poor and isolated country
13:18
with absolutely no medical system
that could have coped with it.
13:21
Uh, that kind of basically brought
the economy to its knees.
13:24
So then Putin gave Kim this
opportunity to come out of isolation.
13:28
The war in Ukraine was like this lottery
ticket essentially for Kim Jong un,
13:31
because he was able to start selling
Putin these vast amounts of weapons
13:35
and sending all these soldiers and
getting huge amounts of money in return.
13:39
Um, but Kim never likes to be reliant
on one person, and
13:43
he has become increasingly reliant on
this relationship with Vladimir Putin.
13:48
And, you know, with discussions
about the war ending and things.
13:51
And it's been
quite a transactional relationship,
13:54
albeit a very lucrative one.
13:56
I think Kim's mind has very much been
on, well, what happens next?
13:58
And so it was very unusual actually,
for him to go to Beijing.
14:02
This is the first time
we've ever seen him go to, uh,
14:05
an international event like this
with many world leaders.
14:09
He's only ever really left
the country to go and meet leaders
like XI or like Putin one on one.
14:11
He does this so rarely.
Everything's very controlled.
14:16
It's very calculated.
So putting him on a stage
14:19
like we saw him yesterday, that was
a big risk for the North Koreans.
14:22
But the calculation
I think was twofold.
14:26
One was because he is aware that he
needs to try to repair and rekindle
14:29
his relationship with China, which
has slightly fallen by the wayside
14:34
because of his relationship
with Vladimir Putin.
14:37
And he is aware that he needs now
more economic support from the Chinese.
14:39
He needs to keep XI onside.
She obviously wanted him to be there.
14:43
The invitation went out. Um,
14:47
and then I think there was
a calculation that actually I am sure
14:49
he would have got assurances
in advance.
14:53
Stephen can tell me otherwise
that he would be given
14:56
this prominent position, that
he would have gone on that basis.
14:58
So a chance
to really try to establish himself
15:01
as this kind of powerful statesman
alongside XI,
15:04
alongside Putin, you know,
at the helm of these world leaders
15:08
gathering in order to send a message
to the West,
15:10
but particularly in the United States,
which is North Korea's main adversary,
15:13
that actually
he isn't isolated anymore.
15:17
He's in this strong position.
He has the backing of XI and Putin,
15:19
and therefore he's he's
basically buying himself leverage
15:22
if he is ever to try to negotiate
with the West again.
15:27
You're absolutely right.
As they were walking along together,
15:30
it was like a phalanx of leaders
in order of priority,
15:32
XI Jinping at the front
and Vladimir Putin on one side
15:35
and Kim Jong un on the other.
15:38
Before we move on,
Gina, I want to ask you, though,
15:40
about someone that
Kim Jong UN brought along with him.
15:43
You know, with the with the nod
to North Korea's future.
15:47
I think she might be
the youngest member
15:50
of an official delegation who's
been visiting Beijing this week.
15:52
Can you tell me about her?
Yeah.
15:56
So we were all pretty surprised at Celia
when we saw these photos that came out
15:58
when Kim was getting off the train,
when it entered Beijing,
16:03
because his daughter was standing
behind him.
16:07
His young daughter.
Now, we don't know how old she is.
16:10
We think she might be around
about 12. Um,
16:12
but he, we think is grooming her
to be his successor.
16:15
So he introduced her
to the public about three years ago.
16:19
And we've just seen her grow
in stature ever since.
16:22
So she first attended this missile
launch with him back in 2022.
16:25
And ever since, she's gone to more
and more high profile events
16:28
and she's been given more
and more prominent placement next
16:31
to her father,
even in some cases being positioned
16:34
in these official photographs
in front of her father.
16:36
So it seems quite clear that
he is intending for her to take over,
16:39
or at least the South Korean
intelligence services are saying
they think that's their best bet.
16:44
Um, there was a lot of discussion
around, well, why on earth
16:49
would he be introducing her to the
world when she's only 12 years old?
16:52
Um, or younger
when he actually first did it.
16:55
But if we look at the way that
Kim Jong UN came to power, as I said,
16:58
which was very rushed,
uh, his father died suddenly.
17:01
He wasn't really kind of consolidated
and built up in this way.
17:04
And he very,
very quickly had to consolidate
his power by being very ruthless.
17:08
He had an incredibly hard time,
we imagine.
17:11
And the explanation is that actually,
he knows how miserable that is,
17:14
and he doesn't want that
for his eventual successor.
17:17
Now, let's turn our attention to a man
who's been leading Russia for years now.
17:20
Vladimir Putin's been smiling a lot
in Beijing at the moment.
17:26
Take us through his motivations
17:30
and what he's been trying to achieve
by his visit to China.
17:32
Yeah. Over these few days, we
were discussing it with colleagues.
17:36
And it's interesting, you know,
to just just to hear
17:39
how the both internal and external
messages for all three leaders, China
17:42
and North Korea and Russia,
resonate with each other.
17:47
Sometimes they are completely identical.
It was interesting for me to see
17:49
how XI Jinping was trying to position
himself as a world leader, etc..
17:53
Mr. Putin says exactly that, that he is
now a leader of this alternative world,
17:57
this alternative to the West reality,
leader of the global South,
18:03
sort of the gatherer
of the global South.
18:08
That's exactly what Mr.
Putin was aiming for.
18:11
I mean, his ambitions were bigger,
uh, initially,
18:12
but he had to, I guess,
scale them down a little bit.
18:16
So now he what he definitely wants is
the new old world order.
18:19
So he is not happy with the
world order where West prevails. Uh,
18:26
many times in his interviews, he said
that he's a fan of the Soviet Union,
18:30
that the, you know, the, the end
of the Soviet Union was, as he said,
18:34
the greatest geopolitical catastrophe
of the 20th century.
18:38
So he definitely tries to rebuild it
in some shape or form.
18:43
And, uh, the shape which works now,
18:47
it seems, is building is,
is gathering the global south, uh,
18:49
and sort of putting it as,
as auntie does,
18:54
sort of just just as a counterbalance
to the global West.
18:57
And that's exactly what
he is trying to project.
19:00
And yeah, in Russian media,
he was being shown as, as,
19:02
as the leader of that gathering, even
though he was visiting, uh, China.
19:06
Of course. Russia.
Russia wants to show that he's, uh,
19:11
he's the the biggest mastermind
behind it.
19:15
Mike, we haven't heard from you
in a little while.
19:18
We've we've just heard
kind of the individual overview
19:21
of what these three men were bringing
to these events in Beijing, what
19:26
was going on through their minds and
what was on their individual agendas.
19:31
But looking at the big picture,
the military picture,
19:34
you know, we have three nuclear armed
dictators all standing in a row,
19:38
seemingly forging some new alliance.
19:44
Really? I mean,
what's your assessment of that?
19:47
What does it really mean?
19:50
Yeah, I spent 20 years in the British
military on on many NATO operations
19:51
and threat assessments
at the tactical and strategic level
19:55
really formed a big part of the way
that you conducted operations.
19:59
And for me, a key driver
within this evolving alliance are
20:02
the individual country
threat assessments
20:06
and what they might be facing
at the moment.
20:08
So, for example, I think the person
that is driving this, the country
20:10
that is driving this reliance
at the moment is Putin and Russia.
20:14
So, for example, Russia
has outsourced a significant amount
20:17
of its drone capability to China.
20:23
Um, when you look at how many drones
are being utilised on both sides,
20:26
but particularly Russia against Ukraine,
over 6000in the month of July alone.
20:30
So that's significant
and that's hurting Ukraine hard.
20:34
Um, if you then look at the, uh,
reliance on Putin with Kim,
20:37
um, Kim has provided over 15000 troops
that were deployed inside Russia
20:44
on the Ukrainian border at the moment,
not just troops, ballistic missiles,
20:49
for example,
that have been launched on Kyiv.
20:52
So that for me, is the two
key reliance drivers between Putin
20:55
and XI when it comes to Kim.
20:59
What is he getting out of this
in terms of threat assessment?
21:02
Well, there's not
a major threat assessment, you know,
21:04
a real time against North Korea
at the moment.
21:07
However, this alliance will be able
to improve Kim's standing
21:10
in terms of the way
that XI and Putin treat him.
21:15
So, you know, Kim is providing troops
inside inside Russia.
21:18
He'll be able to be able to say
to XI, look, we can support you with.
21:23
He's got 1.3 million troops,
for example.
21:27
He's got a lot of military capability
in terms of ballistic missiles.
21:29
Um, how good that is.
That's another question.
21:33
But in terms of volume,
that's what Kim can do.
21:35
So I think that is the thing that is
driving and involving this alliance
21:38
at the moment are
the individual threat assessments.
21:41
And when it comes to XI,
specifically,
21:44
Taiwan is a is a is
a massive threat assessment,
21:47
because if if China wants
to be aggressive towards Taiwan,
21:49
it knows obviously the US military
why an $870 billion defense budget?
21:53
11 aircraft carriers potential for
home basing in Japan and South Korea.
21:58
You know, that's going to be
a significant problem for XI.
22:02
So I think she is now using
this relationship to be able to lean
22:05
on North Korea if he needs to,
22:09
and lean on
on Putin and Russia if he needs to.
22:11
So I think
there's a number of components there
22:14
where this alliance piece is,
is beneficial for all three.
22:16
So this alliance, though,
I mean, Jean mentioned it earlier,
22:20
it was such an amazing scene
to see these three men
22:23
all in a row,
really with with Russia and China,
22:27
those two leaders treating Kim
Jong un almost as if he was an equal.
22:30
If you're Donald Trump sitting
in the white House,
22:35
I can't believe
we haven't mentioned him until now.
22:37
But, you know,
would you see that apparent alliance
22:40
as an increased threat?
22:44
Do you think that that threat, that
risk assessment has really gone up
22:47
in the minds of of Americans and
other Western countries, NATO countries.
22:50
I mean, in the eyes of Donald Trump,
who's a, you know,
22:56
has transactional foreign policy,
who's very much taken
22:59
an isolationist approach
in terms of stepping away from NATO.
23:02
Um, it may not resonate with them,
23:06
but I can tell you it will certainly
resonate with the leaders in Europe
23:08
and the members of NATO
outside of the US, for sure.
23:11
You know, NATO's inception
was in 1949,
23:14
and and there has been relative global
peace, you know, for over 75 years.
23:17
The idea that NATO is now being
fragmented in terms of Trump's lack
23:23
of reliance in supporting NATO when
it comes to the fight against Russia
23:28
in Ukraine,
you know, that's that's huge.
23:32
Um, and he'll also be looking at,
you know, Pete Hegseth,
23:35
who's the defense secretary. Um, and
JD Vance have been very aggressive
23:39
in terms of the posturing on Taiwan.
23:43
And so, um, you know, if I was
Donald Trump, if I was JD Vance,
23:45
if I was Pete Hegseth,
I'd be looking at this alliance
23:48
and it would be playing a huge factor
into any military contingency planning
23:51
on how they might counter
any aggression from China on Taiwan,
23:56
because that's going to be a
naval sea based operation primarily.
24:00
You know, those 11 aircraft carriers
that the US have
24:04
will be absolutely critical in
any countering of military aggression
24:07
from China
in terms of power projection.
24:10
You've then got four bases
in Okinawa.
24:12
They will be absolutely critical
for use by Donald Trump
24:15
to counter any aggression
that then is going to pull in Japan.
24:18
And so there's all
of these counter consequences that,
24:22
you know, if I was if I was
in the cabinet in the US,
24:25
I would be directing military
generals to be working up a lot
24:28
of counter
contingency planning proposals,
24:32
courses of action that now see not
just China entering the aggression,
24:35
but a reliance of China
on North Korea and Russia.
24:40
And then that sort of expands
the military capability and
24:43
what the US has to do to counter that
in a really significant way.
24:46
Do you know, I'd like to bring you in
here. You know,
24:51
just to reflect
on what Mike has just been saying,
24:53
you know, he referenced Kim Jong un
several times
24:55
and North Korea's position.
Can you reflect a little bit on,
24:58
on on how North Korea's
military position has changed,
25:02
even just in
the last couple of years?
25:05
Kim Jong UN
has really prioritized building up
North Korea's nuclear program. Right.
25:08
The reason that North Korea is
so isolated is so poor.
25:12
It's such an international pariah.
It's because it developed,
25:15
um, nuclear weapons
against international treaties.
25:19
And that is
why it's been so heavily sanctioned.
25:23
But Kim Jong UN
has really prioritized growing
25:25
North Korea's military,
um, program and nuclear program.
25:28
So in 2021,
he set out this five year plan
25:31
for all the things that he wanted
to achieve over the last five years.
25:35
And he has almost completed it.
25:37
So, uh, he,
he has sort of forged ahead,
25:40
regardless
of all these sanctions on developing
25:43
very powerful ballistic missiles
that can carry nuclear warheads.
25:45
And continuing his, um, building up
his stockpile of nuclear warheads.
25:49
Um, and so North Korea is
in a stronger position
25:54
militarily really,
than it has ever been.
25:59
And yet the sanctions aren't working
because it's now getting this cover
26:02
from countries like Russia and China,
26:05
which are in turn just allowing it to
build its nuclear program even further.
26:08
Um, can I just add to that? I mean,
there are three key components
26:13
that are required to develop
a nuclear capability.
26:15
The first one is, um, having the ability
to enrich uranium or plutonium.
26:18
The second one is to build a warhead.
And the third one is a delivery system.
26:22
In order to put that warhead
with the enriched uranium
and plutonium onto a target.
26:26
And at the moment, in order for North
Korea to become a threat to the US,
26:31
that needs an intercontinental
ballistic missile capability.
26:35
And that's the that's the long pole
in the tent, if you like.
26:38
That's the bottleneck in terms
of what North Korea is facing
26:40
on the nuclear front.
Thanks for watching this video.
26:43
And for more in-depth explainers
like this one,
26:46
just search for the Global
News podcast on the BBC World Service
26:49
online or wherever
you get your podcasts from.
26:53